ECT Pentecostal Testimony

[andyc]

Okay here we go with a testimony that'll be ripped apart by the hyper disps, but ho hum that's unimportant LOL

What I want to do is talk a little bit about my own experiece with the pentecostal journey, which was very far from smooth sailing, as you'll soon see.
I'm a word faith charismatic pentecostal, and was brought up in an AOG church, was born again when I was about 21 I guess, and returned to the church that I grew up in. Now, here's the problem.
From the moment I started going to church again, I wanted to speak in tongues really badly, and experience what the church taught as the baptism in the Holy Spirit where we become powerful witnesses for Christ, invigorated with a Holy boldness, and have the ability to do great and marvelous things. I read various books about it, heard numerous testimonies, loads of sermons etc....but for some reason it wouldn't happen to me. This is why I feel led to talk about my own struggle, because it's obvious that many people struggle to understand the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. I had numerous people pray for me, slap me on the head, anoint me with oil, preach at me, try and push me down on the floor. But nothing, zilch, nadda. There was no way I was going to perform for anyone. If God had something for me, it was going to be all God.
I even sat by my bed at night asking God to fill me with the Spirit, and sit there with my mouth open waiting for God to fill it, but nothing. Even feeling the anointing strongly, and sensing God in my room next to me so strong I was reluctant to open my eyes. But nothing happened.

So.....here's the danger when nothing happens. Some people may say that if God won't fill you with the Holy Spirit, there's a problem.
SIN. Oh dear. Either unconfessed sin, or sin that is unashamedly still being committed. Phrases like, "God won't fill a dirty vessel" were spoken, as well as stories of people who went back and put something right that they had done before they were saved etc. All this stuff that I thought was taken care of through faith in Christ was suddenly thrown back in my face. And it sent me down a 3 year battle with extreme legalism, and this was bondage. I looked at my life and was determined to get rid of every impurity that I saw that could possibly be a hindrance to God filling me with the Holy Spirit. All this did was give the devil a lisence to have fun pointing out my every weakness, and kicking me all over the place. Because if you focus on sin, you give it power to dominate your mind, and you begin to see it more and more in yourself and other people. Through this I opened my self up to religious critical spirits, and was totally miserable, but carried on regardless.
Then while in my car one morning I had an experience where I was certain God filled me with the Spirit, because I was filled with a new found zeal and boldness, and would get tremendous personal revelation when reading the bible, and also had a desire to interpret tongues when in church. However, because I didn't speak in tongues, this experience of mine was rejected by my pastor. To him I was not baptized in the Holy Spirit because I didn't speak in tongues. So now I was confused. This then began a two year battle with people in the church where I tried to convince everyone I was filled with the Spirit, but that the gift of tongues was not necessarily for everyone. This was flat out rejected, and so to add to a religious critical spirit, I was becoming embittered. Struggling with legalism, feeling rejected by God, and rejected by the church, and scorned by the devil.
This is why many people leave the pentecostal church. I got beaten up so bad I later had to wrestle with a demon for a week in order to be free of bitterness and being critical about everything.

Eventually I was burned out and stopped going to church, and didn't care any more. Strangely, I actually felt the love of God more when feeling as a failure, then when I was a zealous pharisee. When you stop trying to be accepted, that's when you lean entirely on the grace of God. I was taught that when you give up, the Holy Spirit will leave you until you repent and return. Bad Bad doctrine.
Ok this part is going to shock people here, but my intent in saying this is to help people who have, are now, or will go through the same mess I went through. About 15 years ago I became friendly with a christian woman who was married, although she was going through a divorce. I was miserable, she was miserable, and we both found comfort in each other. I am in no way trying to defend or excuse myself for being totally irresponsible, but at the time was clinging to the one person who believed in me. You see, the 'salvation on a string' doctrine is extremely deadly, because if you think God has abandoned you, well then you'll just continue the course of living as a failure.
By being in an ungodly relationship, I was so full of guilt and shame, and yet could really sense God's love stronger than at any other time. And this totally confused me. Amazing how the love of God will never give you up no matter how bad things get, as long as you're at least not fighting the shame and defending sin. As I slowly began to draw more on the strength that God loved me regardless, it gave me a strength to alter the relationship with my lady friend to where we were friends only, and that she needed time and space to sort her life out.

While attending a church in America there was a visiting minister who spoke a word over me. I was reluctant for him to do it because I was unimpressed with him and his sermon to be honest, but someone in the church dragged me up to this guy. He didn't know who I was, or where I was from, but as he spoke a prophecy over me, I listened objectively, and then went home thinking about it. The next day as I sat on the garden swing thinking about that word, I got an awesome understanding of how much God loved me. In a sense, I shouldn't have needed to understand this from the word spoken over me, but with everything that happened, I must have really been struggling to really accept God's love fully.

Now this is absolutely key to receiving anything from God. I can't stress this enough. God is love, and those that come to him must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. Without God's love, faith has no chance because faith works by love.
After about month I returned to England and still flying high walking in God's love. I went for a walk in the country one sunny afternoon, and had this strong desire to worship God in the Spirit, but when I tried to speak, it was in English. This was frustrating. With no one around I just spoke a few words in gobbledygook that was 100% flesh, and I kinda laughed at myself for being so stupid. Out of pure frustration I then poured out a sentence of complete nonsense, but this time it felt different. I knew inside that what came out came from within, and as i took a deep breath and spoke again, a mixture of English and gibberish flowed out until eventually a language that I had never learned was flowing out of me, and I just had no desire to stop, and neither did it feel stupid. It was the most natural thing in the world.
It was flowing out of me all the way home. Awesome!

So there it is. I could have done that years before, but because of bad theology, poor appreciation of God's love, struggling with bitterness, criticism, rejection etc.... it was all a hindrance. But because I refuse to become hardhearted with scripture, I kept an open mind.

Okay get ready for the mockers to rip all this apart, but to those seeking who have struggled or are struggling, hopefully this will give you encouragement.

 

[Cross Reference]

Okay here we go with a testimony that'll be ripped apart by the hyper disps, but ho hum that's unimportant LOL

What I want to do is talk a little bit about my own experiece with the pentecostal journey, which was very far from smooth sailing, as you'll soon see.
I'm a word faith charismatic pentecostal, and was brought up in an AOG church, was born again when I was about 21 I guess, and returned to the church that I grew up in. Now, here's the problem.
From the moment I started going to church again, I wanted to speak in tongues really badly, and experience what the church taught as the baptism in the Holy Spirit where we become powerful witnesses for Christ, invigorated with a Holy boldness, and have the ability to do great and marvelous things. I read various books about it, heard numerous testimonies, loads of sermons etc....but for some reason it wouldn't happen to me. This is why I feel led to talk about my own struggle, because it's obvious that many people struggle to understand the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. I had numerous people pray for me, slap me on the head, anoint me with oil, preach at me, try and push me down on the floor. But nothing, zilch, nadda. There was no way I was going to perform for anyone. If God had something for me, it was going to be all God.
I even sat by my bed at night asking God to fill me with the Spirit, and sit there with my mouth open waiting for God to fill it, but nothing. Even feeling the anointing strongly, and sensing God in my room next to me so strong I was reluctant to open my eyes. But nothing happened.

So.....here's the danger when nothing happens. Some people may say that if God won't fill you with the Holy Spirit, there's a problem.
SIN. Oh dear. Either unconfessed sin, or sin that is unashamedly still being committed. Phrases like, "God won't fill a dirty vessel" were spoken, as well as stories of people who went back and put something right that they had done before they were saved etc. All this stuff that I thought was taken care of through faith in Christ was suddenly thrown back in my face. And it sent me down a 3 year battle with extreme legalism, and this was bondage. I looked at my life and was determined to get rid of every impurity that I saw that could possibly be a hindrance to God filling me with the Holy Spirit. All this did was give the devil a lisence to have fun pointing out my every weakness, and kicking me all over the place. Because if you focus on sin, you give it power to dominate your mind, and you begin to see it more and more in yourself and other people. Through this I opened my self up to religious critical spirits, and was totally miserable, but carried on regardless.
Then while in my car one morning I had an experience where I was certain God filled me with the Spirit, because I was filled with a new found zeal and boldness, and would get tremendous personal revelation when reading the bible, and also had a desire to interpret tongues when in church. However, because I didn't speak in tongues, this experience of mine was rejected by my pastor. To him I was not baptized in the Holy Spirit because I didn't speak in tongues. So now I was confused. This then began a two year battle with people in the church where I tried to convince everyone I was filled with the Spirit, but that the gift of tongues was not necessarily for everyone. This was flat out rejected, and so to add to a religious critical spirit, I was becoming embittered. Struggling with legalism, feeling rejected by God, and rejected by the church, and scorned by the devil.
This is why many people leave the pentecostal church. I got beaten up so bad I later had to wrestle with a demon for a week in order to be free of bitterness and being critical about everything.

Eventually I was burned out and stopped going to church, and didn't care any more. Strangely, I actually felt the love of God more when feeling as a failure, then when I was a zealous pharisee. When you stop trying to be accepted, that's when you lean entirely on the grace of God. I was taught that when you give up, the Holy Spirit will leave you until you repent and return. Bad Bad doctrine.
Ok this part is going to shock people here, but my intent in saying this is to help people who have, are now, or will go through the same mess I went through. About 15 years ago I became friendly with a christian woman who was married, although she was going through a divorce. I was miserable, she was miserable, and we both found comfort in each other. I am in no way trying to defend or excuse myself for being totally irresponsible, but at the time was clinging to the one person who believed in me. You see, the 'salvation on a string' doctrine is extremely deadly, because if you think God has abandoned you, well then you'll just continue the course of living as a failure.
By being in an ungodly relationship, I was so full of guilt and shame, and yet could really sense God's love stronger than at any other time. And this totally confused me. Amazing how the love of God will never give you up no matter how bad things get, as long as you're at least not fighting the shame and defending sin. As I slowly began to draw more on the strength that God loved me regardless, it gave me a strength to alter the relationship with my lady friend to where we were friends only, and that she needed time and space to sort her life out.

While attending a church in America there was a visiting minister who spoke a word over me. I was reluctant for him to do it because I was unimpressed with him and his sermon to be honest, but someone in the church dragged me up to this guy. He didn't know who I was, or where I was from, but as he spoke a prophecy over me, I listened objectively, and then went home thinking about it. The next day as I sat on the garden swing thinking about that word, I got an awesome understanding of how much God loved me. In a sense, I shouldn't have needed to understand this from the word spoken over me, but with everything that happened, I must have really been struggling to really accept God's love fully.

Now this is absolutely key to receiving anything from God. I can't stress this enough. God is love, and those that come to him must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. Without God's love, faith has no chance because faith works by love.
After about month I returned to England and still flying high walking in God's love. I went for a walk in the country one sunny afternoon, and had this strong desire to worship God in the Spirit, but when I tried to speak, it was in English. This was frustrating. With no one around I just spoke a few words in gobbledygook that was 100% flesh, and I kinda laughed at myself for being so stupid. Out of pure frustration I then poured out a sentence of complete nonsense, but this time it felt different. I knew inside that what came out came from within, and as i took a deep breath and spoke again, a mixture of English and gibberish flowed out until eventually a language that I had never learned was flowing out of me, and I just had no desire to stop, and neither did it feel stupid. It was the most natural thing in the world.
It was flowing out of me all the way home. Awesome!

So there it is. I could have done that years before, but because of bad theology, poor appreciation of God's love, struggling with bitterness, criticism, rejection etc.... it was all a hindrance. But because I refuse to become hardhearted with scripture, I kept an open mind.

Okay get ready for the mockers to rip all this apart, but to those seeking who have struggled or are struggling, hopefully this will give you encouragement.

Not from me. You read my mail. One thing though. Upon reflection can you not now see how the enduring was made to be a "washing of regeneration" for you? "Stuff" had to be evacuated from your soul (1Pet 2;22)

This is a bit long but invaluable to folks who long for the fulfillment of the Pentecostal fulfillment:

JESUS CHRIST, THE BAPTIZER


“THERE WAS A MAN SENT FROM GOD, whose name was John. .. . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.... And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

“And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:6, 29, 32—34).

Every one of the four Gospels spells out John’s declaration, “I indeed baptize you with water; he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” When the Pharisees asked, “Why baptizeth thou?” he replied, “That he should be made manifest.. . therefore I am come baptizing with water” (John 1: 25, 31). Furthermore, John assured them that he was sent to baptize with water (vs. 33). It was his ministry. This fact was recognized to such an extent that he became known as “John the Baptist.”

I doubt whether one could find a ten-year-old in Christendom that has not yet learned about John the Baptist. All through the ages, generation after generation, men have learned of this great prophet, but they know him by what he did and not by what he said or prophesied. Yet we know that he was both prophet and baptizer.

In recent times I have been astonished to find that very few Christians have ever heard that Christ is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. They know Him as the Lamb of God, as Saviour; and as the Son of God, our Lord; but they are unfamiliar with the fact that He was announced to the world as the One to whom God gave the ministry of baptizing with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus Christ is both Saviour and Baptizer. We have no doubt that He is as much the Saviour today as when He died on Calvary as the Lamb of God. Even so, He is still the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as much as He was when He commenced this ministry on the Day of Pentecost, for He is the “same, yesterday, today and forever.”

I have just traveled in seven countries and addressed over 300 ministers belonging to seven of the major classical Protestant churches. During these three months I have read a great variety of ecclesiastical writings, touching upon almost every subject and event between Easter and Pentecost. From Ascension to Pentecost. I have listened to many radio talks in several languages. Not once did I hear a minister, see in a paper, or hear over the radio any mention that Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit. In conversations many that questioned me or spoke to me expressed some surprise at my strong emphasis upon the message that Christ is the Baptizer in the Spirit. I have heard much about the work of the Spirit, about receiving the Spirit, and even about the coming of the Spirit, but nothing is ever said about being baptized with the Spirit.

The first intimation in history that a baptism with the Spirit was a possible event in the life of a human being came from John the Baptist. However, he did not announce the experience but rather the one who gave such an experience. He announced that the Baptizer was coming.

Cont. . .

 

[Cross Reference]

More . . .

He clearly states that God had told him that Christ would be the Baptizer with the Holy Ghost. He also assures us that the image for this act of Christ was his own act of baptizing in the river. From the very beginning, therefore, all John’s converts fully expected an experience that would be as overwhelming as their baptism in the river. These converts had an encounter with the baptizer and not with water or even the river. What they were to expect was an encounter with the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and not with the Spirit or with the work of the Spirit in their lives.

For every baptism there must be an agent to baptize, and an element with or into which to baptize, and finally a candidate to be baptized. Such a candidate must present himself and ask for baptism. Then there must be a total and complete surrender to the baptizer and not to the element in which he baptizes. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is an encounter with Christ, the Baptizer. The candidates are those who have already had an encounter with Him as the Lamb of God, the Saviour, who took away all their sin and made them worthy temples of the Holy Spirit.

The disciples who left John and followed Christ that He might baptize them with the Holy Spirit discovered that He was full of the Spirit. They saw His miracles to prove it and heard His word to confirm it. Then He gave them power and authority to cast out devils and heal the sick, but that was not the baptism in the Spirit that they expected. Finally they saw Him weak and as a Lamb led to the slaughter, and He opened not His mouth. He died on the cross and was laid in the tomb, and no one had been baptized in the Spirit. What about John’s prophecy? Was it all mythical or mystical?

In the evening of that first Easter day of Resurrection, He suddenly and unexpectedly appeared in their midst. Then He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” This was after He had explained, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” But how did His Father send Him? First He came, born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35), and then He was endued with the Spirit (Luke 4: 1) to commence His earthly ministry. So here the disciples became the very first members of a new body, the church. He breathed eternal life into them. Calvary, the all-effective altar of God, had dealt with the sin question, and those who were dead in trespasses and sin now could receive the life-giving, regenerating Holy Spirit. This was for them the occasion where they were baptized into one body by the Spirit (I Cor.12:13).
But John said that God had said that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit, not that He would give the Spirit. I wonder how these disciples thought and felt about all these strange things? However, a few weeks later Jesus again spoke to the same men to whom He had said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Now He confirms John’s message. He says to them, “John truly baptized with water: but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1: 5). Here Christ accepts and confirms the same image that God had given to John, a baptism in water and a baptism in the Holy Spirit—indeed a river baptism, but the river of life must first begin to flow upon earth.

Several predictions were confirmed on the Day of Pentecost. The Father gave the promised Holy Ghost, who was heard as wind and seen as fire. Jesus began to baptize in the Spirit and fire. The immediate consequence of this baptism was that the candidates began to speak with other tongues as Jesus had promised (Mark 16: 17). Then the HolySpirit began to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment as Peter preached to the multitude (John 16:8). But the record says, “They were all filled {overflowed] with the Holy Ghost, and [of which was] they began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts2:4).


Cont . .

 

[Cross Reference]

More . .


It seems that from this very day onward much more emphasis was given to the experience of the disciples than to the act of Jesus the Baptizer, and the whole controversy began to revolve around glossolalia—speaking with other tongues—which was the very simple consequence of this baptism in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the gift and tongues was the consequence. These tongues were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and not a manifestation of the ecstasy of the human spirit. Speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit or, as Paul puts it, “Praying with the Spirit,” is an act of the Holy Spirit upon the human spirit which transcends the understanding (I Cor.14: 14, 15).

Thus it seems clear that on the day of Pentecost the spirit of the disciples was baptized into the Holy Spirit and their bodies were filled with the Holy Spirit—overflowed with the Holy Spirit. The fact that they commenced to speak “with the Spirit” was proof of this overflowing.

In our day many pray for an infilling, an experience, instead of seeking the Baptizer. They ask the Holy Spirit to fill them when they should be asking Christ to baptize them. The baptism will produce the filling. This filling of the body by the baptism of the human spirit into the Holy Spirit produces an overflowing (see John 7:38) which causes the vocal organs to go into action and speak a language that is unknown to the candidate. He may be fully aware of what he is doing but does not know what he is saying (I Cor.14:14).

On the day of Pentecost God gave the Holy Spirit and Christ then baptized His followers into the Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4). About 10 years later, according to Acts 10:44—46, when the Apostle Peter dared to preach to the Gentiles for the first time (Acts 11:19), these same Gentiles received exactly the same experience that the apostles and the disciples of Christ had on the day of Pentecost. The record says, “And they of the circumcision [Jews] were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God” (Acts 10:46). The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem objected to all this. (Acts 11:2). Then Peter in his defense said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11: 15, 16). In other words, it was the same Baptizer who baptized into the same element, with the same consequences. The consequences were what convinced the Jewish Christians that the experience of the Gentiles was valid, for they heard them speak with tongues (Acts10:46).

From this record it is quite clear that during the first decade Peter and the church in Jerusalem believed that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and that “speaking with tongues” was the immediate consequence or confirmation of this baptism. During this last decade in our time the Christian world has become more conscious of the Holy Spirit and many are reaching out for His power and a charismatic ministry. However, it seems to me that unless the church once again lifts up Christ as the Baptizer, many will seek the blessing from the Holy Spirit and fail to find it because He will always honor Christ.

To get the baptism in the Spirit everyone must seek an encounter with the Baptizer, who began this ministry on the day of Pentecost when He truly came back in the Spirit to baptize His disciples. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever (Heb.13:8).

David Duplessis .......[Mr. Pentecost]

[Emphasis mine (cf Luke 4:1-14 for the necessity of it)]

End

 

[musterion]

Andy,

Why would anyone who is saved need to wait for a "gift of tongues"? After Pentecost, the Bible shows that no believer who did receive the gift had to wait for it, ask for it, plead for it, fast for it, have faith for it, read books about it, get smacked on the head, get hands laid on them or anything else.* The Gentiles with Cornelius got it the second they trusted Christ per Peter's preaching. So why were you led to think you needed to do all those things? And it was not unconfessed sin...if you are truly in Christ, you have no sin anymore but His righteousness. So that cannot be what stopped it from happening.

So what else might have?

You spoke of thinking objectively, so objectively consider ALL the possibilities here, because you're not.

*The disciples of John that Paul met don't count. They hadn't heard anything about it yet.

 

[Cross Reference]

Andy,

Why would anyone who is saved need to wait for a "gift of tongues"? After Pentecost, the Bible shows that no believer who did receive the gift had to wait for it, ask for it, plead for it, fast for it, have faith for it, read books about it, get smacked on the head, get hands laid on them or anything else.* The Gentiles with Cornelius got it the second they trusted Christ per Peter's preaching. So why were you led to think you needed to do all those things? And it was not unconfessed sin...if you are truly in Christ, you have no sin anymore but His righteousness. So that cannot be what stopped it from happening.

So what else might have?

You spoke of thinking objectively, so objectively consider ALL the possibilities.

*The disciples of John that Paul met don't count. They hadn't heard anything about it yet.

They trusted Christ before ever hearing from Peter. or Paul!!!!! Why do suppose the Lord appeared to Cornelius? Read the account again __ for the first time!!!

OMT: Jesus never went to the cross for the act of sin, past, present or future. He went there to cancel out the power of sin. He went there that man might be enabled to do it the same way He did it.

 

[andyc]

Amen Cross Reference
The focus is always lost when your eyes come off of the baptizer. Great stuff from Duplessis and very much relevant to the theme of the thread. There are many people who seem to be struggling with the pentecostal experience, and so what can be said to help, should be a blessing.

 

[Cross Reference]

Amen Cross Reference
The focus is always lost when your eyes come off of the baptizer. Great stuff from Duplessis and very much relevant to the theme of the thread. There are many people who seem to be struggling with the pentecostal experience, and so what can be said to help, should be a blessing.

Amen, Bro. Keep up the good fight in that "light".

 

[andyc]

Andy,

Why would anyone who is saved need to wait for a "gift of tongues"? After Pentecost, the Bible shows that no believer who did receive the gift had to wait for it, ask for it, plead for it, fast for it, have faith for it, read books about it, get smacked on the head, get hands laid on them or anything else.* The Gentiles with Cornelius got it the second they trusted Christ per Peter's preaching. So why were you led to think you needed to do all those things? And it was not unconfessed sin...if you are truly in Christ, you have no sin anymore but His righteousness. So that cannot be what stopped it from happening.

So what else might have?

You spoke of thinking objectively, so objectively consider ALL the possibilities here, because you're not.

*The disciples of John that Paul met don't count. They hadn't heard anything about it yet.

Everyone's situation is different, even in scripture. The Samaritans believed the gospel and were saved after Philip preached, but they weren't filled with the Spirit until Peter laid hands on them.
I was born again 4 years before I even attended church, and hadn't a clue what it meant to speak in tongues. I remember people speaking gibberish when I was a kid, but didn't know what it was about.
It wasn't until I learned about being filled with the Spirit, that I desire it.
There is also the faith of the church you attend. I never saw anyone saved, healed, or filled with the Spirit during the time I was attending that church. As Cross reference pointed out, when the focus comes off of the baptizer, you're in trouble. In my case, the focus was on self. Why am I not good enough?

The devil comes to steal kill and destroy, but Jesus comes to give life to the full!

That's enough to make a fence post shout.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If anyone ought to be a OSASer it is bro Andy....if someone coulda lost their salvation it would have been you.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Andy,

Why would anyone who is saved need to wait for a "gift of tongues"? After Pentecost, the Bible shows that no believer who did receive the gift had to wait for it, ask for it, plead for it, fast for it, have faith for it, read books about it, get smacked on the head, get hands laid on them or anything else.* The Gentiles with Cornelius got it the second they trusted Christ per Peter's preaching. So why were you led to think you needed to do all those things? And it was not unconfessed sin...if you are truly in Christ, you have no sin anymore but His righteousness. So that cannot be what stopped it from happening.

So what else might have?

You spoke of thinking objectively, so objectively consider ALL the possibilities here, because you're not.

*The disciples of John that Paul met don't count. They hadn't heard anything about it yet.

You have to BELIEVE that's the point, unbelief will get you stitch with God. There are times when God acts sovereignly, as with for example Cornelius but then he was in a place where whatever he received it could be trusted as being from the Lord.

THAT'S the point, if you suddenly received the gift of tongues without believing in God for it you might ever after wonder if it was from God....if you suddenly got rich and it wasn't in accord with faith in God's word or if you were healed or had a vision.

So God's usual mode de operandi is believing the scripture concerning any matter.

The devil's job is to trick you out of it.

 

[andyc]

If anyone ought to be a OSASer it is bro Andy....if someone coulda lost their salvation it would have been you.

HA HA
I did become OSAS for a few month after listening to a Charles Stanley sermon one morning. I knew I was saved while in rebellion and so if that debunked the alternative, then so be it.
The problem was when I came up against the awkward verses. Something was missing, and it bothered me for weeks. At the time I only understood OSAS, and the save-lost-saved-lost alternative. It was either A or B, but could thee be a C?
One of the reasons why I think there is so much volatility between the OSAS crowd and save-lost crowd is because there are convincing arguments for both sides, and this means that there is a more balanced view between the two. After reading Hebrews 6:5-6 one day, I knew OSAS had to be false, but at the same time knew I was saved while in sin. So what was the answer?
Again I went for a walk and asked God. The response was simple. Faith. I went home and had a look at every problem verse for OSAS, and found that faith was the common denominator every time. As long as a person believes they are OSAS, they are

 

[oatmeal]

Andy,

Why would anyone who is saved need to wait for a "gift of tongues"? After Pentecost, the Bible shows that no believer who did receive the gift had to wait for it, ask for it, plead for it, fast for it, have faith for it, read books about it, get smacked on the head, get hands laid on them or anything else.* The Gentiles with Cornelius got it the second they trusted Christ per Peter's preaching. So why were you led to think you needed to do all those things? And it was not unconfessed sin...if you are truly in Christ, you have no sin anymore but His righteousness. So that cannot be what stopped it from happening.

So what else might have?

You spoke of thinking objectively, so objectively consider ALL the possibilities here, because you're not.

*The disciples of John that Paul met don't count. They hadn't heard anything about it yet.

You are right, speaking in tongues is immediately available to all those who received the gift of salvation/eternal life/ holy spirit, those who have been born again

However, people don't always realize that

Peter and John went to Samaria to assist Philip with that issue.

People learn in steps, people learn different truths at different paces.

Andyc had to realize God's love.

Some learn this faster than he, some slower.

If a person had unloving or abusive parents or church, it may take time for someone to cleave to a truth like "God is love"

If a person had very legalistic parents or religion, grace might be a tough lesson to learn.

If a person grew up with pagan idols, overcoming the false teaching of the trinity can be tough.

If a person grew up with Sadduccees or mediuims, understanding I Thessalonians 4:13-18 might be tough

 

[musterion]

As long as a person believes they are OSAS, they are

That is false, Andy. I used to struggle with OSAS when I was coming out of Calvinism, and I'm pretty sure I got my mind right now. What you just described is a person being saved -- not by faith in what the Bible says God has done for him in Christ -- but by the power of his own faith in his own faith that God has done those things for him. See? The focus is on self, not on Christ. I think that's your WordFaith doctrine coming out, that faith = power. It amounts to trusting Christ but then putting (and keeping) our faith in our own faith that He's justified us in order to keep ourselves justified, which is not what Paul taught. That's a form of fleshly works righteousness...I know, I once was caught in that trap. Calvinism actually teaches something very similar, which is why I struggled with OSAS (misrepresentations of it, actually). But OSAS is not that, and that's exactly why I now prefer the term UESIC: Unconditional Eternal Safety In Christ. HE is the focus, not me or my faith. I am nothing.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

That is false, Andy. I used to struggle with OSAS when I was coming out of Calvinism, and I'm pretty sure I got my mind right now. What you just described is a person being saved -- not by faith in what the Bible says God has done for him in Christ -- but by the power of his own faith in his own faith that God has done those things for him. See? The focus is on self, not on Christ. I think that's your WordFaith doctrine coming out, that faith = power. It amounts to trusting Christ but then putting (and keeping) our faith in our own faith that He's justified us in order to keep ourselves justified, which is not what Paul taught. That's a form of fleshly works righteousness...I know, I once was caught in that trap. Calvinism actually teaches something very similar, which is why I struggled with OSAS (misrepresentations of it, actually). But OSAS is not that, but that's exactly why I now prefer the term UESIC: Unconditional Eternal Safety In Christ. HE is the focus, not me or my faith. I am nothing.

Amen!

 

[Cross Reference]

HA HA
I did become OSAS for a few month after listening to a Charles Stanley sermon one morning. I knew I was saved while in rebellion and so if that debunked the alternative, then so be it.
The problem was when I came up against the awkward verses. Something was missing, and it bothered me for weeks. At the time I only understood OSAS, and the save-lost-saved-lost alternative. It was either A or B, but could thee be a C?
One of the reasons why I think there is so much volatility between the OSAS crowd and save-lost crowd is because there are convincing arguments for both sides, and this means that there is a more balanced view between the two. After reading Hebrews 6:5-6 one day, I knew OSAS had to be false, but at the same time knew I was saved while in sin. So what was the answer?
Again I went for a walk and asked God. The response was simple. Faith. I went home and had a look at every problem verse for OSAS, and found that faith was the common denominator every time. As long as a person believes they are OSAS, they are

Remembering freewill is at stake in this: I am convinced the relationship has to be more intimate than just faith. Faith must produce righteousness, with outward evidence observed, if one has truly tasted of the heavenly gift and partaken of the Holy Spirit. He must do something with it to fill the heart. If one doesn't and falls away is most probably because he hasn't. So what does it means if he has and then falls away is what I believe the passage is speaking of.

Consider, how cannot one repent of trampling on the indwelling Jesus Christ? It would have to be someone greater than God to grant it because he would have fallen away from the Him above whom there is none who can restore a relationship that was the "end all" of relationships? Being born again carries that responsibility! No. Not even God can reverse apostasy under such conditions __ nor would He, I am afraid. That is one reason why I make the distinction between being saved and being born again. Using myself as an example, I don't believe I was born again most of my Christian life. Having said that and believing I am now is because He refused me; He didn't choose to place Himself in me out of His love and mercy for me in His foreknowledge of seeing me in my wickedness and presumption but, knowing there wiould come a time when I would cry out to Him in the prescribed way of abandonment that He [c]ould then hear my prayer. "I love them that love Me", is His word we must understand which goes well beyond our religious idea about God's "unmerited favor" being true.

 

[andyc]

That is false, Andy. I used to struggle with OSAS when I was coming out of Calvinism, and I'm pretty sure I got my mind right now. What you just described is a person being saved -- not by faith in what the Bible says God has done for him in Christ -- but by the power of his own faith in his own faith that God has done those things for him. See? The focus is on self, not on Christ. I think that's your WordFaith doctrine coming out, that faith = power. It amounts to trusting Christ but then putting (and keeping) our faith in our own faith that He's justified us in order to keep ourselves justified, which is not what Paul taught. That's a form of fleshly works righteousness...I know, I once was caught in that trap. Calvinism actually teaches something very similar, which is why I struggled with OSAS (misrepresentations of it, actually). But OSAS is not that, and that's exactly why I now prefer the term UESIC: Unconditional Eternal Safety In Christ. HE is the focus, not me or my faith. I am nothing.

You can't see that the difference you're coming up with is meaningless. If you believe that you now cannot possibly stop believing, that is the same as unconditional election, as you are also saying that you are saved by Christ's faith. It wasn't down to you to cause it, and it's not down to you to end it. That is unconditional election.
The meaningless aspect is that if you were to come back next year and tell everyone you are an atheist, the people who think like you do would disregard the faith you claimed to once have, and you would no longer believe anyway. So, as I said, it's meaningless. I started a thread a while ago about how OSAS is all about personal assurance.

 

[andyc]

Remembering freewill is at stake in this: I am convinced the relationship has to be more intimate than just faith. Faith must produce righteousness, with outward evidence observed, if one has truly tasted of the heavenly gift and partaken of the Holy Spirit. He must do something with it to fill the heart. If one doesn't and falls away is most probably because he hasn't. So what does it means if he has and then falls away is what I believe the passage is speaking of.

Consider, how cannot one repent of trampling on the indwelling Jesus Christ? It would have to be someone greater than God to grant it because he would have fallen away from the Him above whom there is none who can restore a relationship that was the "end all" of relationships? Being born again carries that responsibility! No. Not even God can reverse apostasy under such conditions __ nor would He, I am afraid. That is one reason why I make the distinction between being saved and being born again. Using myself as an example, I don't believe I was born again most of my Christian life. Having said that and believing I am now is because He refused me; He didn't choose to place Himself in me out of His love and mercy for me in His foreknowledge of seeing me in my wickedness and presumption but, knowing there wiould come a time when I would cry out to Him in the prescribed way of abandonment that He [c]ould then hear my prayer. "I love them that love Me", is His word we must understand which goes well beyond our religious idea about God's "unmerited favor" being true.

Yep you hit the nail on the head.
The reason is because the state of a person's spirit cannot be reversed when becoming unrighteous. When a person is born again, their spirit is deemed righteous, as it is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If a person flat out rejects Christ, the spirit becomes unrighteous, and this condition is irreversible. There is no sacrifice for sin committed in the spirit, which is why fallen angels can never be redeemed. They were spirits created in a state of righteousness, and are now forever lost in unrighteousness. We are born spiritually innocent, but if a person denies faith in Christ to their grave, their spirit shall forever be unrighteous also.

 

[Cross Reference]

Yep you hit the nail on the head.
The reason is because the state of a person's spirit cannot be reversed when becoming unrighteous. When a person is born again, their spirit is deemed righteous, as it is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If a person flat out rejects Christ, the spirit becomes unrighteous, and this condition is irreversible. There is no sacrifice for sin committed in the spirit, which is why fallen angels can never be redeemed. They were spirits created in a state of righteousness, and are now forever lost in unrighteousness. We are born spiritually innocent, but if a person denies faith in Christ to their grave, their spirit shall forever be unrighteous also.

Interesting you brought up Angels. While I agree, you might want to consider, since angels have no advocate with God because they were created individually and should they become "unrighteous", who could advocate for them? In like fashion, Adam had no advocate while continuing to procreate many sons of God but, in a fallen condition, until Jesus was born into the scene through the seed of Adam (Gen 3:15), not to stop it because the seed of Adam was fallen seed, but to make a way of reconciliation possible and that by His blood which was in common with the rest humanity with the exception His Blood was of His Heavenly Father __ the fathers bloodline being that which in past on hereditarily. [The main reason why Mary didn't have be born sinless . . ]

 

[lifeisgood]

That is false, Andy. I used to struggle with OSAS when I was coming out of Calvinism, and I'm pretty sure I got my mind right now. What you just described is a person being saved -- not by faith in what the Bible says God has done for him in Christ -- but by the power of his own faith in his own faith that God has done those things for him. See? The focus is on self, not on Christ. I think that's your WordFaith doctrine coming out, that faith = power. It amounts to trusting Christ but then putting (and keeping) our faith in our own faith that He's justified us in order to keep ourselves justified, which is not what Paul taught. That's a form of fleshly works righteousness...I know, I once was caught in that trap. Calvinism actually teaches something very similar, which is why I struggled with OSAS (misrepresentations of it, actually). But OSAS is not that, and that's exactly why I now prefer the term UESIC: Unconditional Eternal Safety In Christ. HE is the focus, not me or my faith. I am nothing.

:thumb: