Partakers of the Body of Christ and the New Covenant

[JudgeRightly]

@Rufus Would you please read and respond to this post?

Matthew 26 is in the context of Matthew 15, where Jesus said: "I am not come except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."



For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:28, Matthew 26:29 - New King James Version

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

www.biblegateway.com

Remission does not mean forgiveness.

It means that the amount decreases.



I, a member of the Body of Christ, am saved...

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:5, Titus 3:6, Titus 3:7 - New King James Version

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

www.biblegateway.com

Indeed:

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:6, Romans 5:7, Romans 5:8, Romans 5:9, Romans 5:10, Romans 5:11 - New King James Version

Christ in Our Place - For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

www.biblegateway.com

I have been justified by His blood.



Hmmm... Question for you:

Who was the Epistle to the Hebrews written to?



No, what we reject is your interpretation of scripture that makes you think that the Body of Christ and Israel are the same thing.



Supra.



Is all of... What?



Jesus is not the New Covenant.

Jesus is the AUTHOR of the New Covenant.
He (along with Israel) are the two parties within that covenant.



Supra.



Amen!



Except it doesn't say that.

That's you assuming that the New Covenant and the gospel of the grace of God are the same thing.

What it says is that believers in the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile, under the gospel of the grace of God.

What it says is that Jews under the New Covenant are still distinct from Gentiles.



Indeed.



No one has said otherwise. That's just a straw man you've set up.

What we've said is that there is a difference between Israel under the New Covenant and Believers in the Body of Christ.



In the Body of Christ? Of course not.

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:12, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Corinthians 12:14 - New King James Version

Unity and Diversity in One Body - For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

www.biblegateway.com

Israel, on the other hand, being NOT the Body of Christ, has a corporate relationship with God, as a nation, rather than a body made up of many members.



Reminder:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:31, Jeremiah 31:32, Jeremiah 31:33, Jeremiah 31:34 - New King James Version

A New Covenant - “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

www.biblegateway.com

Pentecost has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.



The answer is simple: we are buried through Christ's death, and raised through His resurrection.

See Titus 3:5-7 above, and Romans 5:6-11 above.



Indeed.



You might want to spend some time learning what we actually believe before you start calling our beliefs "heretical doctrine," O' Confused One.

Just sayin'....

 

[Nick M]

Are messianic believers today (right now) in the new covenant relationship with God or not?

No, they are under grace and still commit acts that are sin, but are dead to sin.

 

[Right Divider]

@Rufus How much closer can I get to Christ than to be a part of His body?

You should become a member of His body too.

Eph 5:30 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.​

If you need instruction for how to get into His body, let us know... we'll tell you.

 

[Rufus]

Wrong.



Correct.

Again, this covenant was made between the same two parties that the Old Covenant was made, God and Israel, as per Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8.

It has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.



Correct. Many in Israel will be saved by the blood of that Covenant.

But that is the New Covenant, one of law.

Not the gift of grace.

Law and grace are NOT the same thing.



The logical inference is that I am not saved under the New Covenant. Which is correct. I am not saved under the New Covenant.

However, to say that I am not saved, period, is false.

Rather, I am indeed saved under a different "covenant," one akin to the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 15.



Where have I done such a thing?

Quote me, please.

There are two Covenants God made with Israel, the New Covenant, and the Old Covenant. BOTH had a requirement to do something to remain in it.

There is a single "covenant" God made with the world, the dispensation of the grace of God, which does not require I do anything to remain in it.

Things that are different are not the same.



Supra.

No, you're not saved under the Abrahamic Covenant either. The terms of that covenant required physical circumcision of all Abraham's natural descendants, OR any Gentile who wanted to attach himself to the Jews and their religion. All Christians are covered by the blood of the New Covenant that was ratified by Abraham's "Seed" (Christ). Since you reject the NC that Jesus himself instituted at the Last Supper and ratified in his own blood on the Cross, the shed blood of Jesus does not cover you. Also, under the Abrahamic Covenant there is no promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is peculiar to only the New Covenant. As stated previously, if anyone does not have the Holy Spirit, he does not have God (Rom 8:9)! And this means you have never been born again!

And the New Covenant is not a covenant of works of the Law, as was the Mosaic Covenant, rather it's a covenant of Grace and Truth.

John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
NIV

And Grace and Truth are antithetical to Law! Grace because it can only give God's elect what they don't deserve; whereas Law can only give sinners what they do deserve. And Truth because God's saints are justified by faith and sanctified by Gospel truth (Jn 17:17), whereas the Law has no power to do either.

And God never made any covenant with the world. God only made covenants with his chosen people. Where in scripture is this covenant you allege?

And finally, the NC and Old are radically different in numerous ways. Jeremiah in chapter 31 even says the two covenants are unlike. As stated previously, the OC was bilateral and conditional in nature, as Israel agreed to obey everything God commanded and to keep his covenant, and God in turn promised blessings or curses for keeping or breaking the terms of the covenant, respectively. Conversely, there is no such agreement under the NC. If you read Jer 31 and Ezek 36 very carefully, you will find no conditions for any people to fulfill or that any agreement was made between human parties and God. God lays down the conditions that He will fulfill. Therefore, the NC is unilateral and unconditional in nature.

In anticipation of a rebuttal that would point to gospel demands (faith and repentance), I would remind you that man's responsibility does not imply ability to keep those demands. Did not Jesus make a "demand" of Nicodemus in John 3 that he had to be "born again" to see the kingodom of God? Yet, in that passage Jesus very clearly taught Nicodemus that something supernatural must be done to him, and not that he must do somehthing natural.

 

[JudgeRightly]

@Rufus please fix your formatting or re-post with corrections.

 

[Rufus]

No, they are under grace and still commit acts that are sin, but are dead to sin.

If they're under grace, then they are in a new covenant relationship with their Messiah. The NC is precisely a covenant of Grace and Truth (Jn 1:17) -- Jesus being the embodiment of both and the new covenant.

 

[JudgeRightly]

@Rufus please fix your formatting or re-post with corrections.

@Rufus

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus

Sorry 'bout that.

But while I'm here and thinking about your appeal to the Abrahamic Covenant, another thought occurred to me. Did Jesus ratify that covenant in his precious blood, or was that covenant ratified in the blood of animals, which can never take away sins? Jesus fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant re the Gentile nations when he instituted and ratified the NC in his own blood. (Recall what the Lord said: He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (i.e. the OT scriptures)? And according to the writer of Hebrews, God doesn't remember his people's sins and lawless acts and forgive them outside the context of the NC (Heb 10:15:-18). In fact, Christ isn't even anyone's High Priest outside of the New Covenant, for his priesthood is the antitype to the Levitical OC type. So, even messianic Jews today are not saved if your theory is correct. And no one can be in the Body of Christ, apart from indwelling Holy Spirit which was promised in the NC.

 

[Right Divider]

If they're under grace, then they are in a new covenant relationship with their Messiah.

What sort of confusion is this?

The new covenant is still law.

Jer 31:33 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

​

This also refers to the new covenant:

Ezek 36:25-28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(36:25) ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (36:27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. (36:28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. ​

The NC is precisely a covenant of Grace and Truth (Jn 1:17) -- Jesus being the embodiment of both and the new covenant.

Jesus taught the law and taught the twelve to teach the law.

Matt 23:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(23:1) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, (23:2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

​

Matt 28:20 (AKJV/PCE)​

(28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.​

The gospel of the grace of God was in revealed until God revealed it to Paul.

Eph 3:1-7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:1) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, (3:2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (3:3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (3:4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (3:5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (3:6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (3:7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.​

​

Partakers of Christ BY THE GOSPEL (i.e., not by a covenant).

Join us in the body of Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

Sorry 'bout that.

But while I'm here and thinking about your appeal to the Abrahamic Covenant, another thought occurred to me. Did Jesus ratify that covenant in his precious blood, or was that covenant ratified in the blood of animals, which can never take away sins? Jesus fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant re the Gentile nations when he instituted and ratified the NC in his own blood. (Recall what the Lord said: He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (i.e. the OT scriptures)? And according to the writer of Hebrews, God doesn't remember his people's sins and lawless acts and forgive them outside the context of the NC (Heb 10:15:-18). In fact, Christ isn't even anyone's High Priest outside of the New Covenant, for his priesthood is the antitype to the Levitical OC type. So, even messianic Jews today are not saved if your theory is correct. And no one can be in the Body of Christ, apart from indwelling Holy Spirit which was promised in the NC

HIS PEOPLE (in scripture) always refers to the nation of Israel.

You continue to CONFLATE the new covenant with many things that do not require a covenant. The body of Christ has no priesthood and therefore does not need a high priest. Jesus Christ is OUR HEAD and we are HIS BODY.

Join us in the body of Christ and be free of all the myths of Churchianity that are leading you to confusion.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No, you're not saved under the Abrahamic Covenant either.

1) Not what I said. What I said was:

I am indeed saved under a different "covenant," one akin to the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 15.

2) Which Abrahamic Covenant are you talking about? There are two. One in Genesis 15, and one in Genesis 17.

The terms of that covenant required physical circumcision of all Abraham's natural descendants, OR any Gentile who wanted to attach himself to the Jews and their religion.

You're talking about the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 17.

Which has very little, if anything, to do with the covenant I referred to above, the one in Genesis 15.

All Christians are covered by the blood of the New Covenant that was ratified by Abraham's "Seed" (Christ).

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Since you reject the NC that Jesus himself instituted at the Last Supper and ratified in his own blood on the Cross,

Wrong.

I reject your insistence that I am under that Covenant.

the shed blood of Jesus does not cover you.

Supra.

Also, under the Abrahamic Covenant there is no promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And?

This promise is peculiar to only the New Covenant.

And?

As stated previously, if anyone does not have the Holy Spirit, he does not have God (Rom 8:9)!

Good thing I have the Holy Spirit, then.

And this means you have never been born again!

"Born again" has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.

It's a term only used by John and Peter, two of the Twelve Apostles, who will rule on twelve thrones over the twelve tribes of Israel in the New Jerusalem which will have twelve gates...

It doesn't mean "reborn" specifically, but rather "born from above" (in John's passage) and "beget into a new life" (in Peter's passage)

Paul, on the other hand, does not use this phrase (or similar) in ANY of his epistles. Instead, he uses terms indicating that we are dead, and then raised, putting off the old (dead) man, and putting on a new (living) man. Not at all "rebirth."

And the New Covenant is not a covenant of works of the Law, as was the Mosaic Covenant, rather it's a covenant of Grace and Truth.

A Covenant is a form of binding contract, a law that those who enter into it must follow.

This is why @Nick W asked you (which you never answered properly, by the way) what it was that those in the New Covenant must do to remain in it, versus what those under the grace of God must do to remain under grace.

So please answer, what must someone do to be saved, under the New Covenant, and what someone must do to remain under the New Covenant. (Hint: No part of your answer should include any passages from Paul.)

Please also answer, according to Paul's gospel of the grace of God, what must someone do to be saved, and what must someone do to remain saved? (Hint: Your answer should ONLY include passages from Paul.)

John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Yes, grace came through Jesus Christ. But Christ did not, during His three-year earthly ministry, teach grace.

Have you never noticed that not once in any of the four Gospels is Jesus ever recorded as uttering the word grace?

Kind of hard to teach something if you don't use the term for it.

On the other hand, the Gospels speak of law, commandment, ordinance, regulation, and Moses many dozens of times, frequently by Christ's own words.

NIV

I strongly advise you to not use the HIV--- I mean the NIV.

It intentionally mistranslates some very important passages, and many relatively less important passages, and is generally not a trustworthy translation of the Bible.

And Grace and Truth are antithetical to Law!

Saying it doesn't make it so.

They're not.

In fact, without grace, you couldn't have any law, because anyone who broke the law would be killed by it, with no way of redemption.

Grace because it can only give God's elect what they don't deserve; whereas Law can only give sinners what they do deserve.

Grace is getting something that one does not deserve.
Mercy is not getting something that one DOES deserve.

The Law ensures that all get what they deserve.

The law of Moses was undergirded by grace, because if it was not, then every single Israelite perished, because none of them could have been found righteous under the law.

And Truth because God's saints are justified by faith and sanctified by Gospel truth (Jn 17:17), whereas the Law has no power to do either.

It is true that the Law does not have the power to save.

However, you're forgetting something important:

The law is good if one uses it lawfully, that is, by using it as a tutor to bring someone to Christ.

And God never made any covenant with the world.

I didn't say He did.

Did you not see the "" I put around the word covenant in my previous post?

Go read Genesis 15, Rufus. Then go read Genesis 17.

Which of those two covenants resembles the New Covenant, as it is described by Scripture?

Which of them resembles grace?

God only made covenants with his chosen people.

Chosen just means "called to accomplish a purpose."

It does not necessarily mean "saved." (e.g. the Levites were chosen by God to serve Him forever, but most of them went to Hell).

Where in scripture is this covenant you allege?

In Paul's epistles. Not in the Gospels, Acts 1-8, or Hebrews through Revelation.

And finally, the NC and Old are radically different in numerous ways. Jeremiah in chapter 31 even says the two covenants are unlike. As stated previously, the OC was bilateral and conditional in nature, as Israel agreed to obey everything God commanded and to keep his covenant, and God in turn promised blessings or curses for keeping or breaking the terms of the covenant, respectively. Conversely, there is no such agreement under the NC. If you read Jer 31 and Ezek 36 very carefully, you will find no conditions for any people to fulfill or that any agreement was made between human parties and God. God lays down the conditions that He will fulfill. Therefore, the NC is unilateral and unconditional in nature.

Rufus, please tell us what Jesus said in Matthew 10:22, 24:13, and Mark 13:13?

Please also tell us what it means to do so.

In anticipation of a rebuttal that would point to gospel demands (faith and repentance), I would remind you that man's responsibility does not imply ability to keep those demands. Did not Jesus make a "demand" of Nicodemus in John 3 that he had to be "born again" to see the kingdom of God? Yet, in that passage Jesus very clearly taught Nicodemus that something supernatural must be done to him, and not that he must do something natural.

Supra, re: "born again."

Please also respond to this post here:

Matthew 26 is in the context of Matthew 15, where Jesus said: "I am not come except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."



For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:28, Matthew 26:29 - New King James Version

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

www.biblegateway.com

Remission does not mean forgiveness.

It means that the amount decreases.



I, a member of the Body of Christ, am saved...

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:5, Titus 3:6, Titus 3:7 - New King James Version

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

www.biblegateway.com

Indeed:

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:6, Romans 5:7, Romans 5:8, Romans 5:9, Romans 5:10, Romans 5:11 - New King James Version

Christ in Our Place - For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

www.biblegateway.com

I have been justified by His blood.



Hmmm... Question for you:

Who was the Epistle to the Hebrews written to?



No, what we reject is your interpretation of scripture that makes you think that the Body of Christ and Israel are the same thing.



Supra.



Is all of... What?



Jesus is not the New Covenant.

Jesus is the AUTHOR of the New Covenant.
He (along with Israel) are the two parties within that covenant.



Supra.



Amen!



Except it doesn't say that.

That's you assuming that the New Covenant and the gospel of the grace of God are the same thing.

What it says is that believers in the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile, under the gospel of the grace of God.

What it says is that Jews under the New Covenant are still distinct from Gentiles.



Indeed.



No one has said otherwise. That's just a straw man you've set up.

What we've said is that there is a difference between Israel under the New Covenant and Believers in the Body of Christ.



In the Body of Christ? Of course not.

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:12, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Corinthians 12:14 - New King James Version

Unity and Diversity in One Body - For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

www.biblegateway.com

Israel, on the other hand, being NOT the Body of Christ, has a corporate relationship with God, as a nation, rather than a body made up of many members.



Reminder:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:31, Jeremiah 31:32, Jeremiah 31:33, Jeremiah 31:34 - New King James Version

A New Covenant - “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

www.biblegateway.com

Pentecost has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.



The answer is simple: we are buried through Christ's death, and raised through His resurrection.

See Titus 3:5-7 above, and Romans 5:6-11 above.



Indeed.



You might want to spend some time learning what we actually believe before you start calling our beliefs "heretical doctrine," O' Confused One.

Just sayin'....

Please also answer my question from this post here:

Where have I done such a thing?

Quote me, please.

There are two Covenants God made with Israel, the New Covenant, and the Old Covenant. BOTH had a requirement to do something to remain in it.

There is a single "covenant" God made with the world, the dispensation of the grace of God, which does not require I do anything to remain in it.

Things that are different are not the same.

You seem to be intentionally ignoring the points I'm making, while attacking me (and RD) with multiple straw man fallacies.

Sorry 'bout that.

Please don't let it happen again.

But while I'm here and thinking about your appeal to the Abrahamic Covenant,

Which one?

another thought occurred to me. Did Jesus ratify that covenant in his precious blood, or was that covenant ratified in the blood of animals, which can never take away sins? Jesus fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant re the Gentile nations when he instituted and ratified the NC in his own blood.

The New Covenant has nothing to do with the Gentile nations.

It is SPECIFICALLY between God and Israel. No other parties.

(Recall what the Lord said: He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (i.e. the OT scriptures)?

Yes, the law that Israel was to obey, that Gentiles did not have to obey unless they wanted to enter into covenant relationship with Him, which was the only way they could enter into a relationship with Him at the time.

And according to the writer of Hebrews, God doesn't remember his people's sins and lawless acts and forgive them outside the context of the NC (Heb 10:15:-18).

As RD said, "His people" refers to Israel.

You never did answer my question, please answer it now:

To whom was the Epistle to the Hebrews written? (No, that is not a trick question nor is it a rhetorical question.)

In fact, Christ isn't even anyone's High Priest outside of the New Covenant, for his priesthood is the antitype to the Levitical OC type.

Funny how this is true, yet Paul fails to mention any sort of priesthood in his letters... I wonder why...

So, even messianic Jews today are not saved if your theory is correct.

False.

And no one can be in the Body of Christ, apart from indwelling Holy Spirit which was promised in the NC.

Wrong. Once again, you're mashing the two dispensations together and trying to make it work.

The Holy Spirit as a Comforter in the New Covenant was indeed promised....... TO ISRAEL!

Guess what?! In the Body of Christ, we have CHRIST HIMSELF living within us! (Galatians 2:20)

 

[Rufus]

What sort of confusion it this?

The new covenant is still law.

Jer 31:33 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

​

This also refers to the new covenant:

Ezek 36:25-28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(36:25) ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (36:27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. (36:28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. ​

Jesus taught the law and taught the twelve to teach the law.

Matt 23:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(23:1) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, (23:2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

​

Matt 28:20 (AKJV/PCE)​

(28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.​

The gospel of the grace of God was in revealed until God revealed it to Paul.

Eph 3:1-7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:1) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, (3:2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (3:3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (3:4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (3:5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (3:6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (3:7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.​

​

Partakes of Christ BY THE GOSPEL (i.e., not by a covenant).

Join us in the body of Christ.

The New Covenant is not the Law of Moses. The beginning of the end of the OC was at the Cross when God showed the Jews that there is a NEW way to Him (Mat 27:51; Mk 15:38; Jn 19:23), and the Mosiac Law Covenant game to its final and ignoble end in 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and OC Judaism itself. The law that is written on people's hearts is Messianic Law, not the Law of Moses (Isa 42:4, 21 The Law that Christians are under are in this NC economy goes by various names:

Law of Christ: Isa 42:4, 21; 1Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2; 2Jn 9
Spirit of Christ lives in us, (Rom 8:9; Eph 3:17; Gal 2:20; Col 1:27; Jn 17:23; 1Jn 4:4)
The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ sets us free from Law of Sin (Rom 8:2)
Law of Liberty (Jas 1:25; 2:12)
Royal Law (Jas 2:8)
Perfect Law (Jas 1:25)
Law of Faith (Rom 3:27)
Natural Law (Rom 2:14-15)

As Christians we are called to:

Obedience to the Gospel (Rom 6:17; 15:18; 2Thes 1:8; 1Pet 4:17)
Obedience to the Truth (Rom 1:18 (implied); 2:8
Obedience to Christ (1Pet 1:2)
Obedience to the Faith (Act 6:7; Rom 1:5; 16:26; Heb 11:8-9)
Obedience to the Message - implied (1Pet 2:8)
Obedience through Sanctification (1Pet 1:2)

Also, God's people are all his elect! How could the elect not be his people when he chose us to be saved!? Furthermore, I would have you know that my father is Abraham; for he is the father of all who believe in the Messiah and who walk in the footsteps of his faith (Rom 4:9-25; Gal 3:6-9)). So, yes, I am more of Israelite than any unbelieving Jew; for Abraham is my spiritual father -- thank you very much!

Don't you know that in this age, we are strongly enjoined to Listen to God's Son -- not Moses (Deut 18:15-19; Mat 17:5; Act 3:22-23;7:37; 2Jn 9)!? And your Mat 28:20 cite above proves this point as well! Jesus did not say, "listen to everything Moses said" or "listen to Moses and Me.".

And I'm still waiting on chapter and verse that says God made a universal covenant with the entire world. And for that matter, please dig out the bible reference that teaches that Paul's ministry put a temporary end to the New Covenant.

And again, no one is in the Body of Christ apart from the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit -- which is only a NC promise!

 

[Rufus]

1) Not what I said. What I said was:



2) Which Abrahamic Covenant are you talking about? There are two. One in Genesis 15, and one in Genesis 17.



You're talking about the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 17.

Which has very little, if anything, to do with the covenant I referred to above, the one in Genesis 15.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



Wrong.

I reject your insistence that I am under that Covenant.



Supra.



And?



And?



Good thing I have the Holy Spirit, then.



"Born again" has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.

It's a term only used by John and Peter, two of the Twelve Apostles, who will rule on twelve thrones over the twelve tribes of Israel in the New Jerusalem which will have twelve gates...

It doesn't mean "reborn" specifically, but rather "born from above" (in John's passage) and "beget into a new life" (in Peter's passage)

Paul, on the other hand, does not use this phrase (or similar) in ANY of his epistles. Instead, he uses terms indicating that we are dead, and then raised, putting off the old (dead) man, and putting on a new (living) man. Not at all "rebirth."



A Covenant is a form of binding contract, a law that those who enter into it must follow.

This is why @Nick W asked you (which you never answered properly, by the way) what it was that those in the New Covenant must do to remain in it, versus what those under the grace of God must do to remain under grace.

So please answer, what must someone do to be saved, under the New Covenant, and what someone must do to remain under the New Covenant. (Hint: No part of your answer should include any passages from Paul.)

Please also answer, according to Paul's gospel of the grace of God, what must someone do to be saved, and what must someone do to remain saved? (Hint: Your answer should ONLY include passages from Paul.)



Yes, grace came through Jesus Christ. But Christ did not, during His three-year earthly ministry, teach grace.

Have you never noticed that not once in any of the four Gospels is Jesus ever recorded as uttering the word grace?

Kind of hard to teach something if you don't use the term for it.

On the other hand, the Gospels speak of law, commandment, ordinance, regulation, and Moses many dozens of times, frequently by Christ's own words.



I strongly advise you to not use the HIV--- I mean the NIV.

It intentionally mistranslates some very important passages, and many relatively less important passages, and is generally not a trustworthy translation of the Bible.



Saying it doesn't make it so.

They're not.

In fact, without grace, you couldn't have any law, because anyone who broke the law would be killed by it, with no way of redemption.



Grace is getting something that one does not deserve.
Mercy is not getting something that one DOES deserve.

The Law ensures that all get what they deserve.

The law of Moses was undergirded by grace, because if it was not, then every single Israelite perished, because none of them could have been found righteous under the law.



It is true that the Law does not have the power to save.

However, you're forgetting something important:

The law is good if one uses it lawfully, that is, by using it as a tutor to bring someone to Christ.



I didn't say He did.

Did you not see the "" I put around the word covenant in my previous post?

Go read Genesis 15, Rufus. Then go read Genesis 17.

Which of those two covenants resembles the New Covenant, as it is described by Scripture?

Which of them resembles grace?



Chosen just means "called to accomplish a purpose."

It does not necessarily mean "saved." (e.g. the Levites were chosen by God to serve Him forever, but most of them went to Hell).



In Paul's epistles. Not in the Gospels, Acts 1-8, or Hebrews through Revelation.



Rufus, please tell us what Jesus said in Matthew 10:22, 24:13, and Mark 13:13?

Please also tell us what it means to do so.



Supra, re: "born again."

Please also respond to this post here:



Please also answer my question from this post here:



You seem to be intentionally ignoring the points I'm making, while attacking me (and RD) with multiple straw man fallacies.





Please don't let it happen again.



Which one?



The New Covenant has nothing to do with the Gentile nations.

It is SPECIFICALLY between God and Israel. No other parties.



Yes, the law that Israel was to obey, that Gentiles did not have to obey unless they wanted to enter into covenant relationship with Him, which was the only way they could enter into a relationship with Him at the time.



As RD said, "His people" refers to Israel.

You never did answer my question, please answer it now:

To whom was the Epistle to the Hebrews written? (No, that is not a trick question nor is it a rhetorical question.)



Funny how this is true, yet Paul fails to mention any sort of priesthood in his letters... I wonder why...



False.



Wrong. Once again, you're mashing the two dispensations together and trying to make it work.

The Holy Spirit as a Comforter in the New Covenant was indeed promised....... TO ISRAEL!

Guess what?! In the Body of Christ, we have CHRIST HIMSELF living within us! (Galatians 2:20)

The NC has everything to do with the Gentile nations. See my previous post. ALL NC believer's have Abraham for our spiritual father. That makes every NC Gentile believer a spiritual Jew! By he way, Paul taught this!

 

[JudgeRightly]

If they're under grace, then they are in a new covenant relationship with their Messiah.

The law is not grace.

A covenant is a type of law.

Those under grace do not have to do anything to remain under it, just as Abraham did not have to do anything to remain in the covenant God made with Him in Genesis 15.

The NC is precisely a covenant of Grace and Truth (Jn 1:17)

No, it's not.

-- Jesus being the embodiment of both and the new covenant.

Wrong.

The New Covenant is not the Law of Moses.

Yes, it is.

The beginning of the end of the OC was at the Cross when God showed the Jews that there is a NEW way to Him (Mat 27:51; Mk 15:38; Jn 19:23),

No immediate disagreement there.

and the Mosiac Law Covenant game to its final and ignoble end in 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and OC Judaism itself.

You are very confused.

The Old Covenant ended with Christ's crucifixion, and the New Covenant came into effect at His death, as per Hebrews 9.

The law that is written on people's hearts is Messianic Law, not the Law of Moses (Isa 42:4, 21)

No.

The Law that Christians are under are in this NC economy goes by various names:

Law of Christ: Isa 42:4, 21; 1Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2; 2Jn 9
Spirit of Christ lives in us, (Rom 8:9; Eph 3:17; Gal 2:20; Col 1:27; Jn 17:23; 1Jn 4:4)
The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ sets us free from Law of Sin (Rom 8:2)
Law of Liberty (Jas 1:25; 2:12)
Royal Law (Jas 2:8)
Perfect Law (Jas 1:25)
Law of Faith (Rom 3:27)
Natural Law (Rom 2:14-15)

As Christians we are called to:

Obedience to the Gospel (Rom 6:17; 15:18; 2Thes 1:8; 1Pet 4:17)
Obedience to the Truth (Rom 1:18 (implied); 2:8
Obedience to Christ (1Pet 1:2)
Obedience to the Faith (Act 6:7; Rom 1:5; 16:26; Heb 11:8-9)
Obedience to the Message - implied (1Pet 2:8)
Obedience through Sanctification (1Pet 1:2)

I'll let RD handle this.

Also, God's people are all his elect!

Because you say so?

How could the elect not be his people when he chose us to be saved!?

You need to watch this video. Chosen does not mean saved.

Furthermore, I would have you know that my father is Abraham; for his is the father of all who believe in the Messiah and who walk in the footsteps of his faith (Rom 4:9-25; Gal 3:6-9)).

No immediate argument there.

So, yes, I am more of Israelite than any unbelieving Jew;

Oh really? So what tribe are you a part of? Who is your patriarch?

for Abraham is my spiritual father -- thank you very much!

Israel was Abraham's grandson, not his son.

Don't you know that in this age, we are strongly enjoined to Listen to God's Son -- not Moses (Deut 18:15-19; Mat 17:5; Act 3:22-23;7:37; 2Jn 9)!? And your Mat 28:20 cite above proves this point as well!

Funny how all of these passages are from scripture relating DIRECTLY to Israel, that have absolutely nothing to do with Paul's epistles...

Jesus did not say, "listen to everything Moses said" or "listen to Moses and Me.".

Yes, He did, actually:

“I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Bible Gateway passage: John 5:41, John 5:42, John 5:43, John 5:44, John 5:45, John 5:46, John 5:47 - New King James Version

“I do not receive honor from men.

www.biblegateway.com

And I'm still waiting on chapter and verse that says God made a universal covenant with the entire world.

Answered, above.

And for that matter, please dig out the bible reference that teaches that Paul's ministry put a temporary end to the New Covenant.

See Romans 9-11, which are all about Israel being cut off, yet their being cut off not being final.

And again, no one is in the Body of Christ apart from the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit -- which is only a NC promise!

Supra.

 

[Right Divider]

The New Covenant is not the Law of Moses.

For the most part, yes it is.

The beginning of the end of the OC was at the Cross when God showed the Jews that there is a NEW way to Him (Mat 27:51; Mk 15:38; Jn 19:23), and the Mosiac Law Covenant game to its final and ignoble end in 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and OC Judaism itself.

You should read all of the scripture, instead of taking someone's word for it.

The law that is written on people's hearts is Messianic Law, not the Law of Moses (Isa 42:4, 21 The Law that Christians are under are in this NC economy goes by various names:

Law of Christ: Isa 42:4, 21; 1Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2; 2Jn 9
Spirit of Christ lives in us, (Rom 8:9; Eph 3:17; Gal 2:20; Col 1:27; Jn 17:23; 1Jn 4:4)
The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ sets us free from Law of Sin (Rom 8:2)
Law of Liberty (Jas 1:25; 2:12)
Royal Law (Jas 2:8)
Perfect Law (Jas 1:25)
Law of Faith (Rom 3:27)
Natural Law (Rom 2:14-15)

Nope, the body of Christ is NOT under the law. You are just MASHING everything under the sun into your mythological "theory".

As Christians we are called to:

Obedience to the Gospel (Rom 6:17; 15:18; 2Thes 1:8; 1Pet 4:17)
Obedience to the Truth (Rom 1:18 (implied); 2:8
Obedience to Christ (1Pet 1:2)
Obedience to the Faith (Act 6:7; Rom 1:5; 16:26; Heb 11:8-9)
Obedience to the Message - implied (1Pet 2:8)
Obedience through Sanctification (1Pet 1:2)

Also, God's people are all his elect!

Again, MASHING and SMASHING things together in this manner is ridiculous. God "elected" different people for different purposes. "Election" is NOT synonymous with "saved".

How could the elect not be his people when he chose us to be saved!?

Because "election" is not synonymous with "saved".

Rom 11:28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:28) As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.​

​

The "elect" here are enemies of the gospel and yet beloved of God.

Furthermore, I would have you know that my father is Abraham; for his is the father of all who believe in the Messiah and who walk in the footsteps of his faith (Rom 4:9-25; Gal 3:6-9)). So, yes, I am more of Israelite than any unbelieving Jew; for Abraham is my spiritual father -- thank you very much!

Don't you know that in this age, we are strongly enjoined to Listen to God's Son -- not Moses (Deut 18:15-19; Mat 17:5; Act 3:22-23;7:37; 2Jn 9)!? And your Mat 28:20 cite above proves this point as well! Jesus did not say, "listen to everything Moses said" or "listen to Moses and Me.".

I know exactly what we are to do in this age. Stop making things up about others. That is dishonest.

And I'm still waiting on chapter and verse that says God made a universal covenant with the entire world.

You are biblically illiterate, even though you quote many verses.

Rom 11:15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:15) For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?​

​

2Cor 5:19 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.​

And for that matter, please dig out the bible reference that teaches that Paul's ministry put a temporary end to the New Covenant.

Read Paul's epistles.

And again, no one is in the Body of Christ apart from the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit -- which is only a NC promise!

WRONG, Paul says that we get the Spirit. It is NOT "only a NC promise". That is YOUR bogus theory.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Rufus, why can't you take the time to read and respond to what I wrote?

I'm finding I'm having to repeat myself often, or refer you to a previous post of mine or RD's, for things that have already been answered, yet seemingly ignored.

The NC has everything to do with the Gentile nations.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

See my previous post.

Answered in all of mine.

ALL NC believer's have Abraham for our spiritual father.

Abraham was Israel's grandfather, not his father.

He is the father of many nations, not just one.

That makes every NC Gentile believer a spiritual Jew!

Gentiles who entered the New Covenant are called Proselytes. They have become Jews.

The Body of Christ is a new creature, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

By he way, Paul taught this!

What he taught was that those in the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile.

The New Covenant, not Paul, still makes the distinction between Jew and Gentile.

 

[Nick M]

If they're under grace, then they are in a new covenant relationship with their Messiah. The NC is precisely a covenant of Grace and Truth (Jn 1:17) -- Jesus being the embodiment of both and the new covenant.

I don't think so. They still deny the messiah, as a nation.

2 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. ....For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

And from Ezekiel

14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’ ”

21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus, why can't you take the time to read and respond to what I wrote?

I'm finding I'm having to repeat myself often, or refer you to a previous post of mine or RD's, for things that have already been answered, yet seemingly ignored.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



Answered in all of mine.



Abraham was Israel's grandfather, not his father.

He is the father of many nations, not just one.



Gentiles who entered the New Covenant are called Proselytes. They have become Jews.

The Body of Christ is a new creature, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.



What he taught was that those in the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile.

The New Covenant, not Paul, still makes the distinction between Jew and Gentile.

I have one question to ask you: I perceive that you have a theological agenda to protect/advance. Are you you a dispensationalist by chance?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I have one question to ask you: I perceive that you have a theological agenda to protect/advance. Are you you a dispensationalist by chance?

You expect me to answer yet another question, but you haven't answered a single question of mine?

Tell me why I should answer your question?

 

[Rufus]

I don't think so. They still deny the messiah, as a nation.

So what? You should read Romans 9-11 more carefully. It's never been the natural descendants of Abraham who have been regarded as his offspring; it's only the [spiritual] "children of the promise"! No go back and re-read Rom 4 and Gal 3 about who has Abraham for a father! Any Jew or Gentile who ever has had faith as Abraham did is a spiritual son or daughter of the patriarch; for they have all been chosen of God and given his grace before the world began (2Tim 1:9), and promised to his elect through his Son before the beginning of time (Tit 1:2). This guarantees their salvation; for God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). So, the NC promise made to Israel in Jer 31 applies infinitely more so to all Abraham's SEEDS in light of these truths! All believers from every nation under the sun are sons and daughters of Abraham. And in fact, all have even been circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands (Col 2:11).