pacifism for true Jesus' followers.

[steko]

He is in a coma now Lots stood by and watched it happen.

I thought he wasn't supposed to look. :noid:

 

[tetelestai]

I was an absolute pacifist in the '70s when I was under the spell of Hinduism and Buddhism. I practiced 'ahimsa/nonviolence'. I used to catch rattlesnakes around my house, carry them across the creek and let 'em go. When the rooms would get full of wasps I'd move around the house Tai Chi style, stick my finger out to wasps and have them crawl up on it. Then I'd take 'em to the door and let them fly, free-e-e-e-e!
When we began to have children, I began to emerge from some of my delusions. When I became a Christian, I wrestled deeply with pacifism and what appeared to be pacifist positions in the NT. At that time, I had associations with pacifist Amish and Mennonite groups as well as having an elderly Amish man living with us for quite some time. When we began homeschooling and did all seven, I was listening to a tape by Jonathan Lindville in which he advocated pacificism to the point of no government involvement, not voting, nothing. Homeschooling was illegal in Tennessee at the time. I saw through and came to disagree with Mr. Lindville's teachings. My wife and I became board members of the Tenn. Home Education Association and worked for a bill to make homeschooling legal in Tennessee. We succeeded(well, I give credit to others more than us).

I've pretty much run the gamut of movements and and the various ism's.

Pacifism is an idealistic illusion at this time which won't be realized in truth until the Prince of Peace returns.

IOW, you were a Pacifist until you became a Dispensationalist?

I'm a Pacifist, but I have no problem eating meat, killing bugs, setting mouse traps, fishing, etc. I even eat raw oysters, raw fish, and raw kibbeh.

Most Dispensationalists are all for violence. They love capital punishment and guns. Are big supporters of the military, and are all for bombing the crap out of Muslim countries.

 

[Lon]

Pacifism is an idealistic illusion at this time which won't be realized in truth until the Prince of Peace returns.

In a practical way, for every Christian struggling, let's look at Chris Mintz' story or someone like him.
As far as I understand the scriptures, I'm convinced the most loving thing a Christian can do at any time, is the thing that is the most loving thing that comes to mind at the time.

To me, it seems taking on the cause of those who cannot defend themselves, is a most loving thing.
Chris Mintz pushed students out of the way and guided them from the shooter, then ran back and tacked the shooter, while being hit 7 times.

-Lon

 

[Lon]

I thought he wasn't supposed to look. :noid:

And filmed as if they knew it was going to happen I can't stand stuff like this happening to people.

 

[tetelestai]

To me, it seems taking on the cause of those who cannot defend themselves, is the most loving thing that comes to mind to do.

Sounds good, and I'm betting your heart is in the right place, but it's this kind of thinking that leads to world wars.

 

[steko]

In a practical way, for every Christian struggling, let's look at Chris Mintz' story or someone like him.
As far as I understand the scriptures, I'm convinced the most loving thing a Christian can do at any time, is the thing that is the most loving thing.

To me, it seems taking on the cause of those who cannot defend themselves, is the most loving thing that comes to mind to do.

-Lon

Yep! I studied the Philosophy/Theology on that very thing years ago.
There's a name for it.
I'll think of it later.

 

[steko]

IOW, you were a Pacifist until you became a Dispensationalist?

QUOTE]

Nope, after thinking through many things after becoming a Christian.

Your obsession is showing again.

Tetimus Obsessimus, a good Roman moniker.

 

[Tambora]

They love capital punishment and guns. Are big supporters of the military, and are all for bombing the crap out of Muslim countries.

Sounds like a patriotic American.

 

[patrick jane]

We dont twist Jesus' word of "love your enemy" passage like you do.

It is self explanatory.

I suspect you have chronic bad breath

 

[patrick jane]

To me, it seems taking on the cause of those who cannot defend themselves, is a most loving thing.


-Lon

John 15:13 KJV -

 

[meshak]

My questions are not related to Pacifism?

this thread is about Jesus' "love your enemy" pacifism.

It is not about your worldly concept of "love your enemy".

Why do you question Jesus' commands?

 

[meshak]

You confuse 'cannot' with 'will not.'

You have been avowing every time when you are asked what Jesus says.

This is the longest time you are still with me.

I can prove to you how you twist Jesus simple teachings.

It seems that is the problem for you. Your attempt to silence me proves it.

 

[drbrumley]

The only proper role of violence is to defend person and property against violence, that any use of violence that goes beyond such just defense is itself aggressive, unjust, and criminal.

That's what I believe.

But what you guys are saying is just let them rape, steal, murder, pillage etc...and we shouldn't stop em.

That's plain stupidity.

Sent from my SM-G920V using TOL mobile app

 

[JudgeRightly]

Ever wonder why they never killed anyone?

(Matt 26:52) “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

You realize that He didn't say "cast your sword away," right? He said, "put it back in it's place"! Meaning it had a place on his belt that was appropriate for use.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It's a discussion....don't know why you're so offended....wish you would stay.

Jesus was 100% innocent, and He stood there while they tortured Him, mocked Him, beat Him, etc., and all the while they were killing Him, He said "Father forgive them..."

Peter was still under the OC.

The oldest covenant God has with man is one of Grace and faith, not works and law.

What if forgiving an enemy that harms your family is what God wants, as opposed to killing someone who tries to harm your family?

Question for you:

If you were murdered for your faith in God, and were instantly in heaven, with no more earthly desires, would you forgive the person who killed you? or would you demand to see justice served?

Come on Lon....besides still sacrificing animals for sin atonement, do you make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem 3 times a year?

God made it clear that He never wanted a temple made with human hands. Yet, the OC is based on God dwelling in the temple. God never wanted that. In the NC, God does not dwell in a temple, those in Christ Jesus are the temple of God, and God dwells in us...that's a drastic change.

Disagree.

If a non-priest( NOT from the tribe of Levi, NOT from the family of Aaron) made a sacrifice at the temple, the punishment was death. No such penalty in the NC. That's not what God wanted.

Again, don't know why you're so mad...and wish you would stay.

That's correct!

In the OC, the Israelites were told to KILL every living creature in Jericho. Think about that....those Israelites had to kill babies, little kids, grandma's, puppy's, women, crippled people, teenage girls, every creature. They killed every living creature.

Think about how different today is compared to when the Israelites had to kill every living creature in Jericho.

Again, correct. However, the covenant changed, and it changed because Christ Jesus fulfilled the OC. We now live in the NC.

Still not sure where you're getting this idea for a "New Covenant." It's not Biblical.

Those who have faith in Christ Jesus are the brothers and sisters in Christ.

Huh?

I see you as a brother in Christ.

I disagree.

Exclaiming I'm against killing and war is not the same thing as advocating killing and war.

LOL...no, Preterist.

I'm totally happy calling myself "replacement". The NC has replaced the OC. Those in Christ Jesus are the Israel of God. Those in Christ Jesus are the children of Abraham.

Same as above.

Also, Israel is a nation, the Body of Christ is an "organism," with Christ as the head. Two different groups.

 

[ok doser]

I heard a man gets beaten up every five minutes on the streets of Chicago.
Poor guy!

If I were him, I'd move.

i'll bet he twitches while he's being beaten

 

[ok doser]

Are you against having policemen in your city, Tet?

:think:

And Peter called for the death of Ananias and Sapphira for simply lying. Was that pacifistic of Peter?

:think:

Chris Mintz was shot in both legs and shot 7 times when he tackled the gunman at Umpqua Community College, saving many of his fellow Christian students' lives.

Chris was not a pacifist. The gunman was not killed but could have been in the struggle.

I believe what Chris Mintz did was from a love for his fellow students and I believe it blessed God.

I pray if such a day comes, I have the courage and love of Chris Mintz.

:thumb:

chris mintz was a hero

 

[tetelestai]

Question for you:

If you were murdered for your faith in God, and were instantly in heaven, with no more earthly desires, would you forgive the person who killed you? or would you demand to see justice served?

Jesus and Paul teach us to forgive.

The Apostle Paul also makes it clear that vengeance is not for us to do so, it is to be left for God to do.

Still not sure where you're getting this idea for a "New Covenant." It's not Biblical.

The NC was implemented at the cross. It's in place right now.

Also, Israel is a nation

That's correct, and it's no different than any other nation on planet earth.

the Body of Christ is an "organism," with Christ as the head. Two different groups.

Correct again, except for the fact that you Darby Followers teach that God still has a plan for the "nation" of Israel in the future.

 

[ok doser]

The Apostle Paul also makes it clear that vengeance is not for us to do so, it is to be left for God to do.

Are you against having policemen in your city, Tet?

are policemen ministers of vengeance?

 

[JudgeRightly]

(Matt 26:52) "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

How much clearer does Jesus have to make it?

If you carry a sword, and draw your sword, you will die by a sword.

Let's look at that passage for a moment:

But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him.And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me.But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled. - Matthew 26:50-56 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew26:50-56&version=NKJV

One key thing to point out in this passage is what Jesus says after "perish by the sword" (which I will get to in a moment). He says:

"Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

I hope you realize that Jesus, had it not been the right time for him to go to the cross, could have done exactly what he said, and fended off those who were there to take Him. The only reason he told Peter to put his sword away was that it was the right time for him to be taken.

Now, as for the "take the sword" bit...

“Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

You know the idiom "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword?" It's origin is from this passage. In fact, it's just another way of saying it.

"All who take the sword" means those who go for the sword first instead of trying peaceful measures first.

"will perish by the sword" means that the above group is rightfully killed when they take up the sword, by those who want peace.

I know you Hard-Right/Dispensationalist/Zionist/Republican/Pro-Capital- Punishment/ Conservative/Fox News Watching/ Rush Limbaugh Listening/War Mongering Christians....don't like that verse, but that's what Jesus said.

Well, You got the right-wing, dispensationalist, Zionist, pro-capital-punishment, conservative parts right.

Republican? Well, since the "publicans" in Jesus' day didn't seem to work, they thought calling themselves the "RE-publicans" might work...

Fox News watching? I hardly watch TV anymore, too much perversity, and Fox news isn't exactly conservative...

Rush Limbaugh listening? Rush isn't a Christian (afaik), though his views are slightly more conservative than others, he's still not truly a conservative. Also, I don't listen to much radio either...

War-mongering Christians? Tell me, after 9/11, was it a bad thing for us to do to go after the people who attacked us, and even to liberate the people from the regimes of terrorist leaders? If so, please explain why.

As for that passage of scripture? I love it, because it shows that people like you have no idea what you're talking about. And what Paul said below too.

Moreover, since you guys really like the teachings of Paul more than Jesus, Paul said the same exact thing.

(Rom 12: 19-21) Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. - Romans 12:17-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans12:17-18&version=NKJV

First of all, Paul is giving the caveat of "if it is possible," implying that sometimes it is not possible.

"As much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men" means that if it is up to you, and if you have the ability to, don't cause trouble.

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. - Romans 12:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans12:19&version=NKJV

"Do not avenge yourself" means to not take upon yourself the duties of justice, which belong to the governmental authorities, i.e. don't go out and kill the man who murdered your friend or relative, leave that to the authorities.

"But rather give place to wrath" means to not take out your anger in the wrong way, in this case, to "avenge yourself."

Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. - Romans 12:20-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans12:20-21&version=NKJV

And if you haven't realized by now, these last two verses should make you realize that none of this is directed towards government. It's not about governmental policy towards criminals, but rather it's directed at the individual. God gave the government the right to punish criminals and to go to war, if necessary. He did not, however, give that right to individuals acting on their own behalf.