ECT Our triune God

TFTn5280

New member
Here is an example of verse that is inspired while the other is worthless when put up against what Paul was always attempting to convey:

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 (KJV)

"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 (ESV)

Which one impresses you as insightful? Can you say why?

Certainly, absolutely, without a doubt, the KJV in this instance. The Objective Genitive is in view here and not a subjective, subject oriented genitive, the thrust in that case being thrown back onto the subject, Paul's audience, who are reading said statement, and not upon the object of Paul's address, Christ. My studies have unveiled much in this regard. It is Christ alone whose faith, faithfulness, fidelity justifies and not the "faith in" kind of justification of contemporary western evangelicals.

Edit: BTW, the only other Bible I have found that gets this right, in body of the text, is the NET Bible, which is a very good critical study bible with over 100,000 notes.
 
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Cross Reference

New member
Certainly, absolutely, without a doubt, the KJV in this instance. The Objective Genitive is in view here and not a subjective, subject oriented genitive, the thrust in that case being thrown back onto the subject, Paul, who is authoring said statement, and not upon the object of Paul's address, Christ. My studies have unveiled much in this regard. It is Christ alone whose faith, faithfulness, fidelity justifies and not the "faith in" kind of justification of contemporary western evangelicals.

Please consider me an illiterate. Can we put off words that have me going to the dictionary in every sentence? I have never heard the word "genitive" nor ever read it in all my life. It is difficult enough to have to interpret your "legalize" writing to the point of discouragement. Come on down a few notches.

Having said that, why do you have to go to your studies for such a verse of scripture only to find the commentary centering on salvation?? Either trans. is good enough for that.
 

TFTn5280

New member
If I can use the KJV, sure. Be happy to.

Thanks, you may certainly compare the KJV to my translation. And thank you for your reciprocity. My treatment of this passage is lengthy, I apologize, but often new concepts need more introduction in order to build a context for their understanding.

In Ephesians 1.10 Paul writes, "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times [God the Father] might gather together in one the all in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him" (my translation).

The words "gather together" here are a translation of the Greek word anakephalaiow, which literally means "to re-head-up." It was the Father's will that in the fullness of times he would send his unique son to "re-gather, via headship," in this One "the all" in Christ (and here "all" is neuter so it is inclusive of everything, not just humanity, but definitely humanity as well, as included in the all). Now that was really cumbersome. I apologize. But I believe it was necessary to gain comprehension of what's going, not only here, but elsewhere in passages like Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. For contained in this verse is the ancient Mediterranean-world concept of "the one and the many."

As westerners we do not so much think in terms of headship. We are much more individualistic in our concepts of responsibility, for example. Each one of us is responsible for his or her own actions but not so much the consequence of those actions as spread across to others relative to their inclusion by way of representation; for example, if I get caught stealing from my neighbor, the authorities are not likely to chop off my children's hands too. BUT in the Mediterranean social world at the time of Christ, specifically, that was not the case at all. In that setting there was very much in place the idea of one person standing in as representative or head of the entirety of a group of people under his headship. There is much to buttress our understanding of this social construct in the writings of early Greek philosophers and writers such as Socrates via Plato, Plato himself, Aristotle, Ulysses (where, for example, you may have seen Achilles defeat the imposing champion in his victory for the all in the movie Troy), as well as others, where we extrapolate this concept of "the one and the many." Equipped with this information, we see clearly the same construct in ancient Semitic writings as well, in OT narratives like the accounts of Boaz and Ruth, and David as he stood in as head over all of Israel in his confrontation with Goliath. We see it also in Abraham as representative over all of his descendants...and Adam over all of humanity, even over all of creation.

In Ephesians 1.10 we learn that God sent his Son, the Christ to re-head-up what was relinquished in the headship of the first head/representative, Adam. Now, that was a long way of getting to misinformed statements like, "Christ isn't cleaning up Adam's mess as much as He is cleaning up Adam." You see, I think it might be better stated this way: Christ was not only cleaning up Adam; he was cleaning up Adam's mess as well ~ that being the mess he made of all humanity and even all of creation in his fall.

What is the significance of this discovery? Under the headship of Adam, everything was lost, given over to new heads like sin, death, and the devil, for example, and the impact they have had on creation itself and all contained within it. But Christ came to re-head-up the collective of Adam's relinquished headship. In the "one" Adam the "many" or the "all" fell. But in the "One" Christ, the second Adam, the head over all, the "many" (I'm narrowing it down to a discussion of humanity) are re-gathered, re-claimed, re-headed-up in him. That is, everyone represented in the headship of Adam are represented uniquely in the headship of the second Adam, Christ.

In the following passage I am going to provide a translation of the Greek text in order to bring out the Mediterranean social concept of "the one and the many," as it relates to Adam and Christ in Paul's address. The passage is Rom 5.15-19. All I will be doing is including the definite article ("the") where it appears in the Gr text. Please read it now from within the social construct of "the one and the many" or "the one and the all." Let's see how the inclusion of the definite article influences our understanding of the passage:

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense the many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to the many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as through the one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through the one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so also by the one Man's obedience the many shall be made righteous.

Do you sense the subtle shift which takes place in our thinking when the definite article is removed as opposed to when it is included in the text? All of the Greek manuscripts we use, including the Textus Receptus, in our translations of the Gr NT into English have the definite article preceding the "one" and the "many" in this passage. This is an instance where translators have been unaware of New Testament/Mediterranean world constructs and thus literary conventions. Being unaware of this particular construct/convention, they omit the definite articles for sake of fluidity, which is not uncommon in Gr-to-English translations. In this case, however, their lack of awareness assisted in leading their readers into confusion as to what Paul was attempting to convey here, through their misinterpretation of this passage. I digress.

The impact of this and all the-one-and-the-many texts relative to Adam and Christ is that every single person, specifically, and thing in a macro-sense, that is represented by Adam is re-headed-up by way of representation in Christ, the second Adam. Here, in Romans, we discover that the "many" of the first man are the same as the "many" of the second Man, the difference being that where the first man brought death, condemnation, and judgment to "the many," which is "all"; the second Man brought an abundance of grace, righteousness, and justification of life to "the many," which is also "all." Hence the two are similar in that they are both representatives of "all men," but they are different in what they produced for that same group of "all men."

And so, we may conclude that this passage is not only about some mysterious Adam-as-son-of-God doctrine, if at all. Rather it should stand as a model in our interpretation of Christ's incarnational-atoning work; for again, we may conclude that everything that is true about the existence of all humanity under the representation of the first man, is equally true in regards to our existence within the inclusion of the Second Man, Jesus Christ. As a result, the kind of questions, for instance, that this reading should be raising in our western minds is this: What are the implications of Christ's “justification” of all of humanity to our theological constructs?

Blessings to all,

T

Thanks again, CR. My background brought me to this translation/interpretation. Has yours as well?
 
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musterion

Well-known member
It's too easy and prevalent for the shallow English perception of "persons" (hypostases) to be conceptualized as "beings" (ousios).

Christ referred to the Spirit as "He," distinct from God the Father and distinct from Himself. Not "it," but "He."

I am the first to confess we cannot possibly quantify God. Not even close. It's impossible. But we can and should go with what He has revealed to us about Himself and that is that, somehow, there are three distinct Personages that are all one God. That's the simplest way my own brain and language can put what I and others see in Scripture; I won't press it any further for risk of adding to His Word.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Thanks, you may certainly compare the KJV to my translation. And thank you for your reciprocity. My treatment of this passage is lengthy, I apologize, but often new concepts need more introduction in order to build a context for their understanding.

In Ephesians 1.10 Paul writes, "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times [God the Father] might gather together in one the all in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him" (my translation).

The words "gather together" here are a translation of the Greek word anakephalaiow, which literally means "to re-head-up." It was the Father's will that in the fullness of times he would send his unique son to "re-gather, via headship," in this One "the all" in Christ (and here "all" is neuter so it is inclusive of everything, not just humanity, but definitely humanity as well, as included in the all). Now that was really cumbersome. I apologize. But I believe it was necessary to gain comprehension of what's going, not only here, but elsewhere in passages like Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. For contained in this verse is the ancient Mediterranean-world concept of "the one and the many."

As westerners we do not so much think in terms of headship. We are much more individualistic in our concepts of responsibility, for example. Each one of us is responsible for his or her own actions but not so much the consequence of those actions as spread across to others relative to their inclusion by way of representation; for example, if I get caught stealing from my neighbor, the authorities are not likely to chop off my children's hands too. BUT in the Mediterranean social world at the time of Christ, specifically, that was not the case at all. In that setting there was very much in place the idea of one person standing in as representative or head of the entirety of a group of people under his headship. There is much to buttress our understanding of this social construct in the writings of early Greek philosophers and writers such as Socrates via Plato, Plato himself, Aristotle, Ulysses, and others, where we extrapolate this concept of "the one and the many." Equipped with this information, we see clearly the same construct in ancient Semitic writings as well, in OT narratives like the accounts of Boaz and Ruth, and David as he stood in as head over all of Israel in his confrontation with Goliath. We see it also in Abraham as representative over all of his descendants...and Adam over all of humanity, even over all of creation.

In Ephesians 1.10 we learn that God sent his Son, the Christ to re-head-up what was relinquished in the headship of the first head/representative, Adam. Now, that was a long way of getting to misinformed statements like, "Christ isn't cleaning up Adam's mess as much as He is cleaning up Adam." You see, I think it might be better stated this way: Christ was not only cleaning up Adam; he was cleaning up Adam's mess as well ~ that being the mess he made of all humanity and even all of creation in his fall.

What is the significance of this discovery? Under the headship of Adam, everything was lost, given over to new heads like sin, death, and the devil, for example, and the impact they have had on creation itself and all contained within it. But Christ came to re-head-up the collective of Adam's relinquished headship. In the "one" Adam the "many" or the "all" fell. But in the "One" Christ, the second Adam, the head over all, the "many" (I'm narrowing it down to a discussion of humanity) are re-gathered, re-claimed, re-headed-up in him. That is, everyone represented in the headship of Adam are represented uniquely in the headship of the second Adam, Christ.

In the following passage I am going to provide a translation of the Greek text in order to bring out the Mediterranean social concept of "the one and the many," as it relates to Adam and Christ in Paul's address. The passage is Rom 5.15-19. All I will be doing is including the definite article ("the") where it appears in the Gr text. Please read it now from within the social construct of "the one and the many" or "the one and the all." Let's see how the inclusion of the definite article influences our understanding of the passage:

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense the many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to the many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as through the one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through the one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so also by the one Man's obedience the many shall be made righteous.

Do you sense the subtle shift which takes place in our thinking when the definite article is removed as opposed to when it is included in the text? All of the Greek manuscripts we use, including the Textus Receptus, in our translations of the Gr NT into English have the definite article preceding the "one" and the "many" in this passage. This is an instance where translators have been unaware of New Testament/Mediterranean world constructs and thus literary conventions. Being unaware of this particular construct/convention, they omit the definite articles for sake of fluidity, which is not uncommon in Gr-to-English translations. In this case, however, their lack of awareness assisted in leading their readers into confusion as to what Paul was attempting to convey here, through their misinterpretation of this passage. I digress.

The impact of this and all the-one-and-the-many texts relative to Adam and Christ is that every single person, specifically, and thing in a macro-sense, that is represented by Adam is re-headed-up by way of representation in Christ, the second Adam. Here, in Romans, we discover that the "many" of the first man are the same as the "many" of the second Man, the difference being that where the first man brought death, condemnation, and judgment to "the many," which is "all"; the second Man brought an abundance of grace, righteousness, and justification of life to "the many," which is also "all." Hence the two are similar in that they are both representatives of "all men," but they are different in what they produced for that same group of "all men."

And so, we may conclude that this passage is not only about some mysterious Adam-as-son-of-God doctrine, if at all. Rather it should stand as a model in our interpretation of Christ's incarnational-atoning work; for again, we may conclude that everything that is true about the existence of all humanity under the representation of the first man, is equally true in regards to our existence within the inclusion of the Second Man, Jesus Christ. As a result, the kind of questions, for instance, that this reading should be raising in our western minds is this: What are the implications of Christ's “justification” of all of humanity to our theological constructs?

Blessings to all,

T

Thanks again, CR. My background brought me to this translation/interpretation. Has yours as well?

Try this out:

God’s plan for having created Adam was fully set in his desire to have many sons, a vast Family of them as a habitation for the fullness of the Godhead to indwell. To show His intent, and as an example, He gave Adam complete dominion over all creation that was set before him and for which Adam even gave them names.

God also gave him the responsibility to oversee his creation by working it out to the fulfillment of Gods ultimate intention. In this, he was given to tilling the ground: “And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.” Genesis 2:15 (KJV). In other words, Adam was given the responsibility of keeping what God had entrusted him with.

Being that it was a responsibility given him, we can safely say that in retaining the possession of what God gave him dominion over was contingent upon one thing that God required of him, i.e., the submission of his life to Him Who loved him and set His affection upon him such that regardless of Adam’s choice from his independent self, God, by the seed of Adam, would go forward that “in the fulness of time” the promise made him in the garden would be fulfilled by Jesus Christ, the second Adam and last Adam.
 

newbirth

BANNED
Banned
God is immaterial (spirit).

So the three that are one, they must also be immaterial.

The Father is immaterial. The manifestations of the Father are also immaterial; the Holy Spirit and the Word. These - Father, Spirit and Word - are the three that are one.

The Holy Spirit manifests as all life.

The Word manifested as the man Jesus, and as the written Scriptures.

So God is immaterial,
triune as the Father, and His two manifestations, the Holy Spirit and the Word,
and He manifests materially as all life, in the man Jesus, and in the written Scriptures.

God is Spirit...there is only one Spirit...you are describing three...
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
 

newbirth

BANNED
Banned
Christ referred to the Spirit as "He," distinct from God the Father and distinct from Himself. Not "it," but "He."

I am the first to confess we cannot possibly quantify God. Not even close. It's impossible. But we can and should go with what He has revealed to us about Himself and that is that, somehow, there are three distinct Personages that are all one God. That's the simplest way my own brain and language can put what I and others see in Scripture; I won't press it any further for risk of adding to His Word.
the captain called his ship she...doesn't mean he is going to marry her...
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

by saying three personages you have already added to his word...
 

musterion

Well-known member
the captain called his ship she...doesn't mean he is going to marry her...
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

by saying three personages you have already added to his word...

Stupid analogy.

Christ referred to the Spirit as "He."

Who exactly is that "He," if it's not Himself nor the Father?

Deal with it or be silent.
 

newbirth

BANNED
Banned
If we as twenty-first century English speakers have to rethink those primitive formulations of Trinity in order to better capture the constitutions of the God of the Scriptures, so be it. I have the greatest respect for the Patristics and that which they accomplished and for which they stood, but a greater respect still I have for God. My heart, our heart should be to speak of him in terms that hold true to the Son's interpretation of his Father in and through the Holy Spirit as recorded in the scriptures. I say, out with ousia and hypostasis both if those terms do not capture the reality of those relations.

I see three by way of union interrelating with and interpenetrating each other. How to best articulate that is yet open in my vocabulary ~ but they are there nonetheless.

if you look to find three you will find three...if you look to find God you will find him...he is one...
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

now there is one God...so says scripture...and one mediator between God and man ....Christ Jesus...reason....he was born a man and the fulness of God Spirit dwells in Him...so he speaks for both God and man....
so where do you get a third entity and what is his purpose??? who is he representing???
 

TFTn5280

New member
In other words, Adam was given the responsibility of keeping what God had entrusted him with.

Being that it was a responsibility given him, we can safely say that in retaining the possession of what God gave him dominion over was contingent upon one thing that God required of him, i.e., the submission of his life to Him Who loved him and set His affection upon him such that regardless of Adam’s choice from his independent self, God, by the seed of Adam, would go forward that “in the fulness of time” the promise made him in the garden would be fulfilled by Jesus Christ, the second Adam and last Adam.


Odd as it should seem (and yeah, BTW, I like what you shared about Adam), I think most Christians have been taught a fairly comprehensive doctrine of Adam and his responsibilities/failures on behalf of all of humanity. His fall brought death to us all, for example, and in some traditions, original sin, sinful nature, spiritual death, too, among other things. But who among us has been taught a universal application of Christ, the second Adam, over the same humanity. Not many, I wager. Why is that, I ask. Because our understanding of Christ's work is far more geared toward individuals and their responsibilities to make personal decisions and behavioral changes in response to his private "call," than toward his universal representation of all, the one for the many. Why, for example, do we not have a comprehensive doctrine of universal atonement in Jesus Christ, passed across in full applicability to all humanity, as we do for Adam's universal transference of spiritual death?

Good talking to you, too. Sorry I was a jerk to you in times past.
 

TFTn5280

New member
if you look to find three you will find three...if you look to find God you will find him...he is one...
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

now there is one God...so says scripture...and one mediator between God and man ....Christ Jesus...reason....he was born a man and the fulness of God Spirit dwells in Him...so he speaks for both God and man....
so where do you get a third entity and what is his purpose??? who is he representing???

Yeah, friend, we're probably at an impasse on this one. You're probably not likely to move across to my side, and I am far from crossing over to yours. Your doctrine disgraces both my understanding of God as Triune and as well my interpretation of the person of Jesus Christ, he being both fully God of God and flesh of flesh. I am happy to commune with you (for how else would I ever be able to bring you to your senses:) but I don't really think we have much to discuss in this context. And so I bid you fair well. T
 

Cross Reference

New member
Odd as it should seem (and yeah, BTW, I like what you shared about Adam), I think most Christians have been taught a fairly comprehensive doctrine of Adam and his responsibilities/failures on behalf of all of humanity. His fall brought death to us all, for example, and in some traditions, original sin, sinful nature, spiritual death, too, among other things. But who among us has been taught a universal application of Christ, the second Adam, over the same humanity. Not many, I wager. Why is that, I ask. Because our understanding of Christ's work is far more geared toward individuals and their responsibilities to make personal decisions and behavioral changes in response to his private "call," than toward his universal representation of all, the one for the many. Why, for example, do we not have a comprehensive doctrine of universal atonement in Jesus Christ, passed across in full applicability to all humanity, as we do for Adam's universal transference of spiritual death?

Good talking to you, too. Sorry I was a jerk to you in times past.

No worries. That is the past.

Re the Yellow:

We do have it in Christ. It is called "The Blood". Adam was created with it and is the one substance universal to all men. We know it was corrupted when he transgressed and passed on through his progeny. We Know Jesus' atonement "cleanses" the blood of man who has received, by faith, the "sprinkling of His Blood" upon them. That is universal for the asking but "willingness' to be subjected to God as the caveat as the man Jesus evidence by His life.
God was after something by creating man and He will bring it to pass before Him in all its glory.

The time is fast approaching for things to be summed in Christ __ that His very Elect will be translated.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Who is the Spirit that Christ referred to as "He"?

Question is open to all and sundry unicyclists, modalists, and such like.
 

musterion

Well-known member
But when comes the Helper, Whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth Who from the Father goes forth, He will bear witness concerning Me.

God the Father

Christ


The Spirit
 

TFTn5280

New member
No worries. That is the past.

Re the Yellow:

We do have it in Christ. It is called "The Blood". Adam was created with it and is the one substance universal to all men. We know it was corrupted when he transgressed and passed on through his progeny. We Know Jesus' atonement "cleanses" the blood of man who has received, by faith, the "sprinkling of His Blood" upon them. That is universal for the asking but "willingness' to be subjected to God as the caveat as the man Jesus evidence by His life.

Yeah, BIG RUB: it's not "by faith" that I receive spiritual death through the works of Adam... Yet there is a pervasive assumption that it is "by faith" that I receive the cleansing of the second Adam. Go figure! Know what I mean?

The time is fast approaching for things to be summed in Christ __ that His very Elect will be translated.

My bible tells me that already happened. Eph 1.10
 
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