"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[Shasta]

We have been perfected. You went against a lot of scriptures to say that.


We are made perfect and holy by Jesus' blood, and now we are to live up to that.

Humble Paul was just saying he is not infallible and that he would live in obedience until the end has come.



Do you know what it is like to have the Holy Spirit living inside your heart?

If you mean God perfectly forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness then I agree. I have yet to meet anyone that is perfect in the sense that they are totally conformed to the image of this Son who expressed flawlessly the image of God who is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...

Do people around here perfectly exemplify these characteristics? I do not know anyone who does. People here are easily offended by disagreement and certainly keep records of wrongs. I have found that people want to be right more than they care about others. We can avoid all outward sins and still have pride which is at the bottom of all of them. It is deceptive and gets into our motives somethings without our knowing it. The only way to walk above the flesh is to yield our members to him and walk in the Spirit. Union with Him is a process that requires our ongoing surrender.

 

[glorydaz]

The only way to walk above the flesh is to yield our members to him and walk in the Spirit. Union with Him is a process that requires our ongoing surrender.

Do you have any scripture for that idea?

 

[Shasta]

Revelation 1:1 tells us who, in general, this book was written to.

It is written about those things which will shortly come to pass, but have not come to pass yet. Therefore it is all future events.

Christians are saved now. They have received the gift of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 and therefore are expected to do the works that the gift of salvation enables them to do. Ephesians 2:10

Romans 6:23 Believers today have received the gift of eternal life.

Believers today are already justified and have peace with God. Romans 5:1

We are saved from the wrath to come (the events in the book of Revelation) Romans 5:9, I Thessalonians 1:10

We are already, ( from a spiritual and legal standpoint ) seated in the heavenlies in Christ. Ephesians 2:6

Etc, etc, etc....

I believe these scriptures too but none of them deals with specifically with the case of a believer who has chosen to either abandon their faith in Christ or deny the truth of the Faith. You are using scriptures intended to comfort abiding believers to comfort apostate Christians.

In Revelation Christ offers warnings to prepare believers for the coming persecution. He presents both positive and negative outcomes which depend on choices they will have to make. The Church at Smyrna, the persecuted Church against whom Jesus offered no criticism was warned to remain faithful in persecution even if it meant dying:

10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’ (Revelation 2:10-11)

As there is a positive outcome for their remaining faithful to the end so is there a negative outcome if they did not. So according to this passage what happens if a believer does not remain faithful to the death? What if in order to preserve their lives and spare themselves pain, they deny Christ?

If OSAS were true there would be no eternal consequence. All of them would make it to Glory as a result of an previously made promise that is unconditional. No doubt people who believe in unconditional eternal security (as I used to) would say "those who are not faithful to the death will just not get the crown." This might have been a valid interpretation if the verse had not included this phrase:

The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

In the context of the passage, "overcoming" means being faithful unto death. Only those who overcame this temptation would NOT be hurt by the second death. On the other hand, those who do not overcome WOULD suffer the pain of the "second death" which scripture elsewhere calls hell (Revelation 20:14)

We cannot enter Heaven if we do not remain faithful to the end. It is how you finish that counts. I know this does not agree with the modern idea of OSAS that is so often preached but this the meaning a simple reading of the text yields and it was the message taught at the end of the First Century when John wrote Revelation.

 

[Shasta]

Do you have any scripture for that idea?

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

A walk of faith as opposed to the first step of faith is an ongoing activity. It is your characteristic pattern of life.

 

[meshak]

We cannot enter Heaven if we do not remain faithful to the end. It is how you finish that counts. I know this does not agree with the modern idea of OSAS that is so often preached but this the meaning a simple reading of the text yields and it was the message taught at the end of the First Century when John wrote Revelation.

there are too many prideful doctrines. Most, if not all, man-made doctrines comes from elitism.

that's why it sounds prideful. And it is prideful. It is not of Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

If you mean God perfectly forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness then I agree. I have yet to meet anyone that is perfect in the sense that they are totally conformed to the image of this Son who expressed flawlessly the image of God who is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...

Do people around here perfectly exemplify these characteristics? I do not know anyone who does. People here are easily offended by disagreement and certainly keep records of wrongs. I have found that people want to be right more than they care about others. We can avoid all outward sins and still have pride which is at the bottom of all of them. It is deceptive and gets into our motives somethings without our knowing it. The only way to walk above the flesh is to yield our members to him and walk in the Spirit. Union with Him is a process that requires our ongoing surrender.

It sounds like you contradicted yourself.

 

[Shasta]

Yes, an important point.

Sin requires hatred for another. He wrote that whoever hates his brother is a murder, doesn't know God and doesn't have eternal life in the same epistle.

Let me correct what I said. While I do believe that "whoever hates his brother is a murderer" and that "no murderer has eternal life abiding in him" I do not believe (all) sin necessarily has to involve hating someone. Many sins are not specifically about hating people. You would have to distort and stretch "hate" into something beyond its ordinary definition to come up with that idea. I believe there are many nice unsaved people who do not hate anyone. We are not saved because we have a nice disposition but because we believe in Jesus.

If your claim to sinlessness rests on the fact that you do not hate anyone then I could make the same claim. I do not hate anyone either but I think sin is more about what people love than what they hate. Pride loving self more than we do God is what leads to all sins, hatred included.

As I have said it is not enough to avoid certain sins. To be pleasing to God we must reflect the characteristics of His nature that are listed in such scriptures as 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 and Galatians 5:22. These are not merely behaviors. They reside in the thoughts and arise from the motives of the heart.

Jesus always did what pleased the Father because he always exhibited the characteristics of the Father's nature and because He always did only what He saw the Father doing in every circumstance. If Christians always lived this way in full measure we would never sin at all. I must say, however, that though I have known many godly people I have never met a person who had no trace at all of the Old Nature. Those who claimed that they were sinless usually turned out to have religious pride which is another deeper kind of sin.

Peter says that believers have been given promises and power so THAT WE MIGHT become partakers of the Divine nature (or character). In other words we become partakers only as we lay hold of the promises

4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature (character), having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust (2 Peter 1:4).

A promise is a potential reality. The Land was a promise to Israel but they had to go and possess it. If we immediately attained the whole image of God it would simply be a fact from the first moment we encountered Him. It would not be a promise and there would be no progressive fulfillment.

That the passage is talking about progressively becoming like Christ is borne our by the following verse:

5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love (2 Peter 1:5-7).

The tone of these verses is one of progressive attainment of the qualities of the Divine nature. It is not instantaneous.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:8)

I believe a person who has been born again will experience an immediate change. However afterward they will continue to grow as the continue in Christ. Peter does not just say "if these qualities are yours" he also adds "and are increasing" This points to the increasing possession of the image of Christ and not to attainment through any one-time experience.

 

[Shasta]

We have been perfected. You went against a lot of scriptures to say that.


We are made perfect and holy by Jesus' blood, and now we are to live up to that.

Humble Paul was just saying he is not infallible and that he would live in obedience until the end has come.



Do you know what it is like to have the Holy Spirit living inside your heart?

In forensic science an investigator might have a lot of theories but if it does not agree with evidence then the case falls apart. Evidence in scripture is based on sound hemeneutics. I was told that I was making up all that I had to say about the dangers of falling into a sinful lifestyle but in the post you replied to here I showed that I did not invent the data but that it came from the language of the scriptures. I notice that in replying to what I said you did not address the points I made. To prove that I am wrong you need to at least attempt to answer the scriptural arguments I have marshaled against the idea that Christians can be perfect. It does not matter whether you are perfected "by faith" or not for the writings of John in particular are not esoteric but mainly practical.

The second line of evidence is practical. To address this you have to ask yourself whether you or any other believer is at every moment of time always patient, kind, gentle, never vain or self-serving, not easily offended and always motivated out of genuine love for others? If you are not then you are not perfect no matter what your doctrinal belief is.

This is not legalism. This is about being in the image of Christ. His character not merely avoiding sins is THE standard against which our motives, thoughts and actions are measured. Only as we remain in union with Him can we exhibit the fruit of Christ's character. No one commitment, belief or experience can ensure that it will be a reality reality in our lives. It is an ongoing experience of depending on Him.

 

[Shasta]

Everything in the Bible is a teaching about love. Do you believe that?



The Royal Law of love your neighbor as yourself shows us that it is true. However, if someone lies it could be because they fear punishment; but when a person does wrong to another, and even to themselves, it is from a lack of love.


They do not love each other enough to marry each other.


If you are calling someone a name and they are indeed guilty, then
it is not a sin. If you are calling someone a name and they are not guilty, then it is hateful.


It could be very helpful to read what someone else writes about God's Truth, but we get understanding by obeying God. See John 14:21, John 7:17, and John 8:32. You speak about reading books to understand what someone writes, why is that helpful?

Where does the Bible say that all sin is about hating someone. Is this a deduction you have made?

 

[God's Truth]

Where does the Bible say that all sin is about hating someone. Is this a deduction you have made?

The whole Bible is about how to love.

If you are not loving, then what are you doing?

 

[God's Truth]

In forensic science an investigator might have a lot of theories but if it does not agree with evidence then the case falls apart. Evidence in scripture is based on sound hemeneutics. I was told that I was making up all that I had to say about the dangers of falling into a sinful lifestyle but in the post you replied to here I showed that I did not invent the data but that it came from the language of the scriptures. I notice that in replying to what I said you did not address the points I made. To prove that I am wrong you need to at least attempt to answer the scriptural arguments I have marshaled against the idea that Christians can be perfect. It does not matter whether you are perfected "by faith" or not for the writings of John in particular are not esoteric but mainly practical.

The second line of evidence is practical. To address this you have to ask yourself whether you or any other believer is at every moment of time always patient, kind, gentle, never vain or self-serving, not easily offended and always motivated out of genuine love for others? If you are not then you are not perfect no matter what your doctrinal belief is.

This is not legalism. This is about being in the image of Christ. His character not merely avoiding sins is THE standard against which our motives, thoughts and actions are measured. Only as we remain in union with Him can we exhibit the fruit of Christ's character. No one commitment, belief or experience can ensure that it will be a reality reality in our lives. It is an ongoing experience of depending on Him.

You are one to talk, for when have you directly answered any of my questions?

By the way, I answer your questions.

As for being made perfect, I gave MANY scriptures that tell us we are.

I then gave many scriptures about LIVING UP TO THAT PERFECTNESS.

Why don't you acknowledge what I post instead of merely denying what I say?

You say can a person ___?

Of course, a person can, for Jesus would not tell us if we could not.

 

[Shasta]

The whole Bible is about how to love.

If you are not loving, then what are you doing?

If you do not love (at all) you do not know God, John said. He is speaking not about human love but divine agape. He also says if you hate your brother eternal life does not abide in you but where does it say every sin is about hate? I think a better case can be made for pride (selfishness, self supremacy) being the root of all sin. People and even the Devil himself hate others because they exalt themselves so much that they devalue others. Pride turned the Devil into a murderer and it turned Cain into the first human murderer.

 

[Shasta]

You are one to talk, for when have you directly answered any of my questions?

By the way, I answer your questions.

As for being made perfect, I gave MANY scriptures that tell us we are.

I then gave many scriptures about LIVING UP TO THAT PERFECTNESS.

Why don't you acknowledge what I post instead of merely denying what I say?

You say can a person ___?

Of course, a person can, for Jesus would not tell us if we could not.

Actually, I got too far behind in posts and too much was going on. Let's talk about being perfect. Sometime previously I had asked someone why Paul and Barnabas, two believers filled with the Spirit could have gotten into a heated argument. Dissension and disunity are not fruits of the Holy Spirit. Were Paul and Barnabas ignorant of the teaching that believers could walk without any sin at all? What about when Paul rebuked Peter for hypocrisy? Was Peter unaware of it too?

In Philippians Paul speaks of life as an Olympic race, the prize of which is attaining (among other rewards) the resurrection. Inheriting eternal life is the prize of all prizes but he sees many trials and temptations ahead and sees the need to let go of everything so that he may attain the prize.

8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

Even though Christ was already part of His life Christ in His fullness was something Paul had not yet experienced. His hope was to be found in Him.

9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead (Philippians 3:9-11).

Had Paul believed in OSAS being found in Him at the Resurrection would not be something to attain. It would be a given.

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Paul says he had not yet obtained the resurrection nor was he perfect. I have made the point before that we are transformed into to Christ's image not instantaneously when we are first born againprogressively as we come to know Him better and better:

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18).

When we see Him face to face the transformation will be complete. Then we will be like Him perfectly.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is (1 John 3:2).

Paul was in the process of being perfected but he was not perfect while he lived and would not be until that Day he saw Christ face to face.

 

[meshak]

Paul was in the process of being perfected but he was not perfect while he lived and would not be until that Day he saw Christ face to face.

No one is, until judgment day.

 

[God's Truth]

If you do not love (at all) you do not know God, John said. He is speaking not about human love but divine agape.

He is talking about human love.

He also says if you hate your brother eternal life does not abide in you but where does it say every sin is about hate?

I have already explained this to you before, but you did not take enough care in replying to my posts. I said if you break any of the Royal Law of love your neighbor as yourself it is about hate. If you murder your neighbor is it love or hate? If you steal from your neighbor, it is love or hate? If you bear false witness against your neighbor is it love or hate? If you commit adultery with your neighbor's wife is it love or hate?
Would you like to explain to me which sins you think do not have to do with hate?

I think a better case can be made for pride (selfishness, self supremacy) being the root of all sin.

Those things are a result of a lack of love. Hate is a antonym for love. If you had love, you would not be selfish and have feelings of self supremacy.

People and even the Devil himself hate others because they exalt themselves so much that they devalue others. Pride turned the Devil into a murderer and it turned Cain into the first human murderer.

It sounds to me as if they did not have love.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

there are too many prideful doctrines. Most, if not all, man-made doctrines comes from elitism.

that's why it sounds prideful. And it is prideful. It is not of Jesus.

There are too many "prideful" posts coming from Meshak. Give it
a brake? Your hat ain't that great.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

GT ought to get a hat and glasses just like Meshak. Somehow, they both
sound similar?

 

[God's Truth]

Actually, I got too far behind in posts and too much was going on. Let's talk about being perfect. Sometime previously I had asked someone why Paul and Barnabas, two believers filled with the Spirit could have gotten into a heated argument. Dissension and disunity are not fruits of the Holy Spirit. Were Paul and Barnabas ignorant of the teaching that believers could walk without any sin at all?
What about when Paul rebuked Peter for hypocrisy? Was Peter unaware of it too?

Paul did right with Barnabas and Peter. We are told to rebuke those in error. We are to debate, even in public debate. We are to argue, vigorously refute, sharply dispute, persuade, oppose, defend, confirm, command, preach, teach, instruct, rebuke, encourage, and contend.

In Philippians Paul speaks of life as an Olympic race, the prize of which is attaining (among other rewards) the resurrection.
Inheriting eternal life is the prize of all prizes but he sees many trials and temptations ahead and sees the need to let go of everything so that he may attain the prize.

The things Paul was speaking of that he let go of is the pride in being a pharisee.

8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I havesuffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

The prize is eternal life; it is also the inheritance, the crown, and the reward.

Even though Christ was already part of His life Christ in His fullness was something Paul had not yet experienced. His hope was to be found in Him.

Had Paul believed in OSAS being found in Him at the Resurrection would not be something to attain. It would be a given.

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Paul is speaking about not losing his salvation.

Paul says he had not yet obtained the resurrection nor was he perfect. I have made the point before that we are transformed into to Christ's image not instantaneously when we are first born again progressively as we come to know Him better and better:

Paul is acknowledging that he is sure of his salvation and that he is not going to lose his salvation.

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18).

When we see Him face to face the transformation will be complete. Then we will be like Him perfectly.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is (1 John 3:2).

Paul was in the process of being perfected but he was not perfect while he lived and would not be until that Day he saw Christ face to face.

The Bible says we are holy, sanctified, and perfect. That is what God says and that is how I see myself. The scriptures say we are to live up to that. If I am not holy and perfect, then how shall I live up to that?

 

[God's Truth]

Philippians 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

 

[Shasta]

He is talking about human love.

I have already explained this to you before, but you did not take enough care in replying to my posts. I said if you break any of the Royal Law of love your neighbor as yourself it is about hate. If you murder your neighbor is it love or hate? If you steal from your neighbor, it is love or hate? If you bear false witness against your neighbor is it love or hate? If you commit adultery with your neighbor's wife is it love or hate?
Would you like to explain to me which sins you think do not have to do with hate?

Those things are a result of a lack of love. Hate is a antonym for love. If you had love, you would not be selfish and have feelings of self supremacy.

It sounds to me as if they did not have love.

When I said it was not "human love" I did not mean that it was not directed TOWARDS other humans I meant that the kind of love John was speaking of was characteristic of God not not of common human interactions. God's love transcends the "my circle" and loves even those who are alien to Him. This is the point of the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Though he was the hated enemy of Israelis and by extension also of the man who had been robbed, the Samaritan went out of his way to save the man at his own expense. The Samaritan had no ties to the victim, no personal history with him. His love is what is called "disinterested" (i.e., unselfish or altruistic).

What made the parable startling to the hearers was that, rather than instead of illustrating the typical "love of ones own people and race," that they understood, it showed a different kind of love that was universal. Ordinary human love "greets those that greet us" and "does good to those who do good to us." This contrasts with God's love which will motivates us to love even our enemies. God loved us even when we were his enemies. This is divine love not mere human love.

You need to define what you mean by hate. The dictionary defines hate as to feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone). Can a person sin against another person without having an intense or passionate dislike for them? I think so.

If we love we will not sin. Love is incompatible with sin, not just with hate but all forms of sin. It is not true that if we do not love others we automatically hate them. The world has love, for its OWN.

If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you (John 15:19).

It seems to me you are assuming your hypothesis (i.e., that anything that is not love is hate) without proving it first which is begs the question. Since the scriptures do not actually say "not loving someone is the same as hating them" you have to do more than base your argument on the semantic fact that love and hate are antonyms.

I propose that the deepest sin is pride. This is the source of all mankind's sins against one another (including hate and murder) and of their rebellion against God. Before Satan began to murder he wanted "to exalt his throne above the stars" That is pride. At first Cain was angry that the works of his hands were rejected while his brothers works were accepted. His pride was wounded. God warned him that "sin was crouching at the door" meaning that the sin was about to take over Cain did not listen to the warning and let his anger grow into hate and then into murder.

While hate IS contrary to love and can arise in any human transaction, hate is not THE root of all sin. It is another of the many fruits arising from a heart devoid of God consciousness (Matthew 15:19)

A heart devoid of God consciousness is primarily SELF-consciousness self-centered. A person who is self-centered is not God-centered which is why the heart must be cleansed - so that the Holy Spirit can move in and make us God-conscious. Believing in Him requires a voluntary surrender of our innate tendency towards self-supremacy. However, it is an ongoing surrender. We must continue to abide in the Vine to bear fruit. We are incapable of acting like Jesus apart from Jesus who "is our life." Because we always have the choice of yielding or not yielding we can always sin, though less and less as we depend on Him more and more.