"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[Shasta]

[elohiym;4467632]If I answer yes, how would you know? Your answer is no, correct? How do you know? It's just your imaginary idea of "the image of Christ" that you are measuring yourself and others against. It's folly.

No, viper, I don't. You are like your father the devil trying to tempt me. Jesus said stuff like that, too. Were his behaviors and attitudes congruent with your silly ideas?

I have never told you much what I think Jesus is like so how could you know if my ideas are silly or not.

Whatever they tell you, if you don't stop sinning occasionally, you are going to perish. I'm here to warn you. Whether I sin or not is the least of your problems, dude.

BTW while the ECF believed in "walking the walk" I have not so far been able to find a reference that shows they believed in sinless perfectionism. Clement of Alexandria says something quite the opposite.

You are making stuff up now. Sin is wilful and always stems from unbelief, without exception. You will never get around that fact and maybe one day you will realize it.

Your will isn't free. If you sin you are a servant of sin (Ro 6:16). Belief isn't a choice. You will do whatever you believe. If you believe Christians continue to occasionally sin, that's what you will do, and die doing because the wages of sin is death.

Freewill is a theological term coined by Christian teachers in the Second Century. It means simply that people have a volition. They are capable of yielding to God or serving themselves.

You are reading that as a license to sin occassionally with impunity, and if you teach that to children ... well ... Jesus said something about a millstone around your neck.

If you teach sinless perfectionism then no one could ever be corrected and disciplined by the Father. Thus they would not be able to grow into the image of Christ.

He didn't say, "if you sin." He taught those who believe, those who are born of God cannot sin. See 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 5:18.

John wrote, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1)

The phrase "my little children" indicates that he is talking to believers. He says he wrote to show them how to avoid sin but IF they do sin there is a remedy. The word IF means that it is possible for them to sin.

Sin requires hatred for another. He wrote that whoever hates his brother is a murder, doesn't know God and doesn't have eternal life in the same epistle.

Well I agree with this.

Your crazy "lifestyle" of sin doctrine is of the devil.

It comes from the meaning of the Greek present tense verbs which John used.

 

[Shasta]

Revelation 3 does not apply to Christianity. Although we do not know the timing of I Thessalonians 4:13-17, we shall ever be with the Lord after that

The first part of Revelation was written to the seven Churches of Asia Minor which existed in John's time (the 1st Century). Most if not all had been started by Paul. We know they were Christian because for one because they were Churches Also, Jesus does not correct and discipline the world, only true sons.

 

[Shasta]

[

elohiym;4467664]You are reading a false doctrine into those verses that contradicts other ideas in the same epistle. I've already made several arguments that you have ignored. Jesus will tell them he never knew them, but you are claiming he will have known them contrary to 1 John 3:6.

I am not reading an interpretation into the text. The Greek language has that meaning. The Greek present tense expresses, repetitive or continuous action. For instance, when 1 John 1:8 says "if we confess our sins" the word "confess" being a present tense verb indicates ongoing confession.

World class scholar of NT Greek A. T. Robertson confirms that this is exactly how this verse should be understood:

1 John 1:9
If we confess...if we keep on confessing." Confession of sin to God and to one another ( James 5:16 ) is urged throughout the N.T. from John the Baptist ( Mark 1:5 ) on....

The confession of sin is not a one time act but is presented as an ongoing practice indicating that from time to time believers will be less than Christlike manner.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/1-john/1-john-1-9.html

Robertson was not a Catholic who believed in ritual confession. He was a Baptist as such he might have tried to smuggle his beliefs about OSAS into the text by making confession and forgiveness a one time event that occurred at conversion. He was much too honest a scholar too do that and he would not have gotten away with it anyway.

Yet you are using his words to justify sinning on occasion.

Before I interjected my thoughts into the text I studied it in the original language. After all that was how John expressed his ideas.

John wrote, "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." You have to argue that he means a lifestyle of sin, but then you can't say a "believer" that falls into a lifestyle of sin ever knew Jesus. Your interpretation is irrational and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Anyone who says they are a believer and never stopped living in sin was never truly converted. The case of backslidders and apostates is covered in a later chapter of John.

But forget about what I think, let's apply Greek grammar to this verse. "No one who abides in Him continually sins or practices sin (as a lifestyle) (1 John 3:6)

The idea the present tense verbs denote an ongoing continual action is brought out in other translations:

English Standard Version
No one who abides (habitually) in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

Berean Study Bible
No one who remains (continually) in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.


International Standard Version
No one who remains in union with him keeps on sinning. The one who keeps on sinning hasn't seen him or known him.

The KJV by using the Old English verb ending "-eth" also indicates that the action is ongoing:

King James Bible
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

John is saying that when a person claims to be a believer but never ceases his old worldly lifestyle he is not a real believer. When anyone is joined to Christ we should expect to see radical change . The rest of the verse is saying that believers who abide IN him cannot continue live a lifestyle of sin. The two conditions are mutually contradictory and exlusive. The text is not saying believers are sinless and perfect.

You are teaching the blood of Christ is a license to sin. Stop!

The life is in the blood. The life in Christ's blood is the Spirit. It is the Spirit that cleanses us from all sin by making us incapable of sin. You claim to still sin occasionally, so can we agree you are either becoming unclean, guilty and dead when you sin, or do you think you have a license to sin occasionally?

You are mixing things that are not sin (anger) with things that will keep a person out of the kingdom (not forgiving). If you don't forgive, then you are not forgiven. That's the way it works.
[/QUOTE]

You are so right about forgiving. It is something I have had to practice and I also to deal with other people about. Anger as an emotion is not necessarily wrong but it is often closely associated with wrong as God asked Cain "Do you have a reason to be angry?" He was angry out of envy. If you are angry out of impatience that is sin too. Longsuffering is a fruit of the Spirit. "Outbursts of anger" is a manifestation of the flesh.

…19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, (Galatians 5:19-20)

Is there ever any enmities, strife, disputes, dissensions and factions among true believers, or is anyone who exhibits these characteristics a false believer from the beginning?

That is a false doctrine, but it's hardly different from your false doctrine. You shouldn't be throwing stones in your glass house.

They are wrong, but so are you as I've pointed out.

BTW throwing stones is NOT disagreeing with someone. It might be attacking them personally, or subjecting them to ridicule and mockery but it is not disagreement, although from what I can tell a lot of people are personally offended when anyone disagrees with them. This does not make sense as I thought this site was supposed to be a place where dissent and free discussion is allowed.

 

[elohiym]

They knew for a while before turning away.

2 Peter 2:20-22 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.​

Matthew 13:20-22 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.​

Neither of those verses state that Jesus knew them or that they knew Jesus. The Lord will say, "I never knew..." somebody. You ought to figure out who never knew Jesus and why. See 1 John 3:6-10.

 

[elohiym]

I am not capable of bearing fruit without abiding in the Vine but through depending on the Holy Spirit I can. My strength comes from Him.

How strong is God if he can't keep you from sinning occasionally?

If you think it is God's job to keep you from sinning, then you don't know God at all.

Shasta's "strength" to sin or not sin allegedly comes from God, yet he still sins occasionally. You don't see a problem with that?

 

[Angel4Truth]

It is a good thing that it is my "faith" that pleases God enough that He chooses to give me eternal life.

Faith is also a gift from God, all we do is extend it. You didnt even do that.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

 

[elohiym]

Yet He also said that Christians could fall (sin) and need to repent.

Revelation 2:5 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.​

That is why we are warned to beware.

2 Peter 3:17 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.​

If we are righteous, we will not remain in the fallen state, but will repent and get back up again every time we fall (sin).

Proverbs 24:16 16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.​

You are twisting every one of those verses. Take your interpretation of Proberbs 24:16 for example; it contradicts Ezekiel 18:24 and Hebrews 10:26-29 and numerous other verses.

 

[Angel4Truth]

That is the correct translation of this verse:

Matthew 5:48 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

What is translated there as "perfect" means complete, we are complete in Him.

We are reunited to God through Him.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Define "lapsing" into sin after being saved, and how many and what kind of sins lead to loss of salvation. Spell it out using scripture, because surely if that happens, it should abundantly clear, as clear as the verses that state we are saved forever, that we are HIS purchased possesions, that it was once for all time, etc..

So define exactly what "lapsing into sin" means, and when that "lapse" results in loss of salvation. (how many times one sins after salvation and what sins, any or all)

That is the thinking of the Pharisees.

They were constantly trying to find the limit of what they could get away with and still be considered righteous.

You should put off the mind of the Pharisee and put on the mind of Christ.

Don't seek to find out what you could get away with, seek the things that are from above.

Philippians 4:8 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.​

Cant answer the questions i asked can you.

I ask simply because something so important that you can lose what you didnt earn, is important to know, yet is suspiciously missing from the workers claims.

 

[elohiym]

Your poor understanding of Colossians 2:14 helps you believe that God abolished His Law, when that is not the case at all.

I don't believe God abolished His law, so don't spread lies about me. He abolished certain laws that were part of an old covenant; had he not done that as promised, more than a jot or tittle would have been changed.

All of God's Laws and Covenants are cumulative, and the only way out of one Law or Covenant is through a later one that provides a way out of the previous one.

Does your wife become unclean, guilty and in need of atonement through a sacrifice and Levitical priesthood every time she menstruates, per Leviticus 15:30? Of course not because that law was abolished as it states in Col 2:14.

If your wife stole a car tommorow, would she be guilty of sin? Of course because the ten commandments have not been abolished. Stealing is still as sin.

This principle is laid out in scripture through the examples of the rules of the laws of the Medes and Persians described in Daniel and Esther.

Whatever. The golden rule fulfils the law. See Matthew 7:12. If you can't live by the golden rule you are a hypocrite and still dead in sin.

 

[elohiym]

The idea that keeping a person from sin is the result of an exercise of Divine power sounds very much like the Calvinistic concept of irresistible grace only that it is directed not towards bringing a person to Christ but keeping them from sinning.

I must admit this is quite a novel concept to me and I do not know how it would work. If it is true, and a believer willfully chooses to sin would he not then be justified in blaming God for not exerting enough strength to stop him?

You have such strong delusion you can't even understand what I believe, even after I explained.

 

[elohiym]

Some symptoms of a lying spirit speaking--

They never sin.

Jesus didn't sin, and you are supposed to be like him. See 1 John 3:6-10. The child of the devil is the one that sins, not the one who doesn't sin.

They say the Holy Spirit is in them by first birth, or just by believing.

The scriptures state that John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from the womb, proving it's possible.

They hate Acts 2:38 doctrine and people of gifts.

They may also just dislike frauds who have no gifts.

They are never wrong and when proven wrong they say that never believed such in the first place.

Good thing you're not like that, right?

They call the righteous to be demonic.

Or they call people with demons that. Some people have demons, and it's obvious.

 

[elohiym]

No, in that scripture, Jesus says he NEVER knew them.

Jesus never knew them because they never repented of their sins.

I thank God at least one person understands that.

 

[elohiym]

In the Old Testament, a person would be cut off, and or killed for certain sins. However, a person might be killed by our Government, but can still be forgiven by God through Jesus. Jesus is mercy.

I agree. The death penalty offenses under the Mosaic law had no sacrifice, only the penalty of death without mercy. The Day of Atonement was not for murders, idolaters, or any other death penalty offender. The only way to be forgiven for those types of sin is outside the Mosaic law through God's mercy (see David). Under the Mosaic law, most of the people participating on this thread would have been put to death without mercy for idolatry.

Do most who love God sin like that? No. However, if one does, then mercy can still be found.

What happens if I murder someone today? I say Hebrews 10:26-29 applies. My opponents on this thread are essentially arguing that if they murder someone today, Hebrews 10:26-29 doesn't apply to them, that they are not dead in sin still. There are so many scriptures beside Hebrews 10:26-29 that convey the same idea.

Read about the prayer of David after he sinned by adultery and murder.

I'm glad you mention David. It is written, "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." When God answered his prayer, like He answered the same prayer for me, David never sinned again, as it is written.

I believe we can be like David after he repented (1 Kings 15:5), or like John's parents (Luke 1:6) without the burden of the Mosaic ordinances (Col 2:14).

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You have such strong delusion you can't even understand what I believe, even after I explained.

You have your own special set of problems, believe me.

 

[elohiym]

BTW while the ECF believed in "walking the walk" I have not so far been able to find a reference that shows they believed in sinless perfectionism. Clement of Alexandria says something quite the opposite.

Hebrews 10:26-29 is still true. You are arguing against that idea, believing if you sin wilfully the blood of Christ will continually cleanse you. The scriptures state the lost never knew the Lord. You are arguing it is possible for the lost to have known the Lord.

Freewill is a theological term coined by Christian teachers in the Second Century. It means simply that people have a volition. They are capable of yielding to God or serving themselves.

The definition of free will relevant to the discussion is the ability of a person to make choices free from prior causes or divine intervention. Based on that definition found in your dictionary, free will doesn't exist. You can be convinced of something and believe it, then your choices will be dictated by your beliefs. The carnal mind cannot serve the law of God; it's not possible.

It is written, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

If you teach sinless perfectionism then no one could ever be corrected and disciplined by the Father. Thus they would not be able to grow into the image of Christ.

I don't hold to sinless perfection, just the image of Christ being sinless and perfect. You either think you are able to "grow into the image of Christ" without completely ceasing from sin, or think nobody has ever grown into the image of Christ. It's seems you only use "grow into the image of Christ" as a cliché.

John wrote, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1)

The phrase "my little children" indicates that he is talking to believers. He says he wrote to show them how to avoid sin but IF they do sin there is a remedy. The word IF means that it is possible for them to sin.

There is another way to read 1 John 2:1 that doesn't contradict 1 John 4:20 and other verses in the same letter, and doesn't necessitate creating foolish ideas like a "lifestyle of sin."

Sin requires hatred for another. He wrote that whoever hates his brother is a murder, doesn't know God and doesn't have eternal life in the same epistle.

Well I agree with this.

Then you shouldn't be arguing with me and claiming a believer can sin occasionally.

It comes from the meaning of the Greek present tense verbs which John used.

You are just reading "lifestyle of sin" into the passage, but the idea contradicts the point above you conceded. The grammar can support what I believe, too, and without contradicting other ideas in the same epistle and other books.

 

[meshak]

Elo,

You still cannot defend your claim of your sinlessness.

Jesus expects His followers to aim for perfection.

You have to be perfect to be sinless.

Are you claiming to be perfect?

 

[God's Truth]

Faith is also a gift from God, all we do is extend it. You didnt even do that.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

 

[God's Truth]

I agree. The death penalty offenses under the Mosaic law had no sacrifice, only the penalty of death without mercy. The Day of Atonement was not for murders, idolaters, or any other death penalty offender. The only way to be forgiven for those types of sin is outside the Mosaic law through God's mercy (see David). Under the Mosaic law, most of the people participating on this thread would have been put to death without mercy for idolatry.



What happens if I murder someone today? I say Hebrews 10:26-29 applies. My opponents on this thread are essentially arguing that if they murder someone today, Hebrews 10:26-29 doesn't apply to them, that they are not dead in sin still. There are so many scriptures beside Hebrews 10:26-29 that convey the same idea.



I'm glad you mention David. It is written, "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." When God answered his prayer, like He answered the same prayer for me, David never sinned again, as it is written.

I believe we can be like David after he repented (1 Kings 15:5), or like John's parents (Luke 1:6) without the burden of the Mosaic ordinances (Col 2:14).

I think that Shasta, you, and I all believe the same on this.

See, you agree that David, who had the Holy Spirit, still sinned, repented, and was forgiven.

Our beliefs are different from the majority here because they do NOT believe they have to obey at all.

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,


That scripture is speaking about a person who is living a life as they have always lived before knowing God.

 

[God's Truth]

Christians are perfect, sanctified, and holy.


Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,