"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
What evidence can anyone give that demonstrates that the sin of Adam and the result of that sin as well as the guilt of that sin passed to all of his descendants?

First let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
(Gen.2:16-17).​

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

So if anyone has evidence that supports the idea of Original Sin then let's hear it.

Thanks!
 
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jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
There we read that men die as a result of their own sins and not as result of Adam's sin.

OT law prohibited anyone to die for someone else's sin.

However he did not execute their children, but did as it is written in the Law in the Book of Moses where the Lord commanded, saying, “The fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers, but a person shall die for his own sin.” (2 Chronicles 25:4)​
 

Zeke

Well-known member
What evidence can anyone give that demonstrates that the sin of Adam and the result of that sin as well as the guilt of that sin passed to all of his descendants?

First let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
(Gen.2:16-17).​

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

So if anyone has evidence that supports the idea of Original Sin then let's hear it.

Thanks!
Simple Western indoctrination

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Original Sin: Better To Dig Deeper Before Placing Yourself Outside the Camp

Original Sin: Better To Dig Deeper Before Placing Yourself Outside the Camp

What evidence can anyone give that demonstrates that the sin of Adam and the result of that sin as well as the guilt of that sin passed to all of his descendants?
See:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...cs-of-Reformed-Theology&p=4559007#post4559007

Evidently Paul assumed as much, too:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...mputed-Death&p=4928249&viewfull=1#post4928249

When Adam and Eve sinned, physical death did not occur immediately. Adam lived 930 years (Gen. 5:5). Spiritual death, however, happened instantly. Spiritual death is the state of spiritual alienation from God. As a result of Adam’s sin, all living people are born spiritually dead (with the exception of the Lord Jesus Christ). Paul refers to spiritual death in Ephesians 2:1: “And you were dead in [your] trespasses and sins.” In Ephesians 2:5, Paul says that unsaved people are “dead in [their] trespasses.” For Adam and Eve, sin brought separation from God, banishment from his presence, and forfeiture of spiritual life (Gen. 2:23–24). All their descendants have likewise been born in a state of spiritual death. This deadness also renders a person unresponsive to spiritual truth (Rom. 8:7–8; 1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4: 4; Eph. 4: 17–18). Only by the divine miracle of regeneration does God end spiritual death and re-create sinners, making them alive to himself (2 Cor. 4:6).

Denial of original sin leads to three important dangers:
1. Those who do so often rely on their emotions or what they think is true when coming to doctrinal conclusions.

2. When you deny the first imputation (i.e., the imputation of Adam’s guilt and sin nature to man) many Pelagians end up denying the two other critical imputations: the imputation of the believers’ sin to Christ on the cross and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to believers. Because Adam was the federal representative of all humanity, his disobedience is counted—legally imputed or judicially reckoned—by God to be the disobedience of all who were in Adam. Those who would charge that such imputation is wrong or inappropriate because not everyone actually participated in Adam’s sin show their inconsistency when they do not make the same charge against the imputation of Christ’s righteousness. For if the justification and righteousness of the Lord Jesus is imputed to those in Him, so too the guilt of Adam’s sin has been imputed to those he represented.

Imputation, from the Dictionary of Theological Terms:
Spoiler

IMPUTATION

A forensic term that denotes the reckoning or placing to a person’s account the merit or guilt that belongs to him on the basis of his personal performance or of that of his federal head. While impute is used in Scripture to express the idea of receiving the just reward of our deeds (Lev. 7:18; 17:4; 2 Sam. 19:19), imputation as a theological term normally carries one of two meanings:

Imputation of Adam’s Sin

First, it describes the transmission of the guilt of Adam’s first sin to his descendants. It is imputed, or reckoned, to them; i.e., it is laid to their account. Paul’s statement is unambiguous: “By one man’s disobedience many were made [constituted] sinners” (Rom. 5:19). Some Reformed theologians ground the imputation of Adam’s sin in the real involvement of all his posterity in his sin, because of the specific unity of the race in him. Shedd strongly advocates this view in his Dogmatic Theology. Others—e.g., Charles and A. A. Hodge, and Louis Berkhof—refer all to the federal headship of Adam. The Westminster Standards emphasize that Adam is both the federal head and the root of all his posterity. Both parties accept that this is so. Thus, the dispute is not whether Adam’s federal headship is the ground of the imputation of his first sin to us, but whether that federal headship rests solely on a divine constitution—i.e., because God appointed it—or on the fact that God made him the actual root of the race and gave the race a real specific unity in him.

The theory of mediate imputation has never gained acceptance in orthodox expressions of the Reformed Faith. It is subversive to the entire concept of the imputation of Adam’s sin upon which Paul grounds his exposition of justification by virtue of union with Christ our righteousness (Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:22).

Paul’s statement of the imputation of Adam’s sin to his posterity is stark: “By [through] one man sin entered into the world, and death by [through] sin; so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12). In the AV the clause “for all have sinned” may give the impression that Paul’s argument is that all die like Adam because all, like him, have sinned. But this is not the case. His statement is, “Death passed upon all humanity inasmuch as all sinned.He teaches that all participated in Adam’s sin and that both the guilt and the penalty of that sin were transmitted to them. However we explain the mode of that participation—whether on purely federal or on traducianist-federal grounds—the fact of it stands as a fundamental of the Christian revelation. As the Shorter Catechism says, “The covenant [of works] being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity, all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression” (Question 16, emphasis added.)

Imputation of our Sin to Christ and of His Righteousness to Us

Second, imputation has a second major use in Scripture. It describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense

“imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He—(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and (2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9. As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9”
(A. A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology, chap. 30, Q. 15).


The fact of this imputation is inescapable: “By the obedience of one [Christ] shall many be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). The ground of it is the real, vital, personal, spiritual and federal union of Christ with His people. It is indispensable to the biblical doctrine of justification. Without it, we fail to do justice to Paul’s teaching, and we cannot lead believers into the comfort that the gospel holds out to them. That comfort is of a perfect legal release from guilt and of a perfect legal righteousness that establishes a secure standing before God and His law on the basis of a perfect obedience outside of their own subjective experience.

The double imputation of our sin to Christ and of His righteousness to us is clearly laid down in 2 Cor. 5:21: “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Hugh Martin’s paraphrase catches the meaning precisely: “God made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, who knew no righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18, 19). That righteousness, not any attained virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God.

Source
: Cairns, A. (2002). Dictionary of Theological Terms (pp. 225–226). Belfast; Greenville, SC: Ambassador Emerald International.



3. If you deny man is born a sinner with a sinful nature then you deny the absolute need for God’s grace and Christ’s death on the cross for men.

To deny original sin is to fall into a camp outside the bounds:

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/trevinwax/2009/09/29/why-should-i-believe-in-original-sin/
https://carm.org/pelagianism
http://www.equip.org/article/original-sin-its-importance-and-fairness/

Then again, given your open theist leanings, Jerry, you are already beyond the bounds. :AMR:

AMR
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
When Adam and Eve sinned, physical death did not occur immediately. Adam lived 930 years (Gen. 5:5). Spiritual death, however, happened instantly. Spiritual death is the state of spiritual alienation from God.

No, a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

You said that the death in this passage refers to 'spiritual" death:

In 2 Cor 3:6-7 the law is called the ministry of death, for when men are instructed as to their duty, and hear it declared, that all who do not render satisfaction to the justice of God are cursed, (Deuteronomy 27:26) they are convicted, as under sentence of sin and death. Again in view here is the spiritual, physical, and judicial death of man.

Therefore, 2 Corinthians 3:6-7 is saying that when men sin against the law they die spiritually. And in order to die spiritually a person must first be alive spiritually. That means no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

It also means that the spiritual death which resulted from Adam's sin has nothing to do with his descendant's spiritual death.
 
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Jerry Redoubles His Previously Laid Waste Efforts

Jerry Redoubles His Previously Laid Waste Efforts

No, a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin:
A mere fifteen minutes or so following my very detailed post, you respond with but the same content you have posted time and again. I suspect you only made the OP as but a means to repeat what you have said elsewhere.

For example, my response included a detailed extract from a respected theological dictionary on the matter of imputation that speaks quite directly to your claims. Yet you remain oblivious to it or are deceitfully ignoring it. When you take the time to digest my response and can offer up observations directly dealing with the points made in my response, things would move along fruitfully.

AMR
 

Danoh

New member
Yep.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Case closed.

By the way, AMR - MANY a Pastor-Teacher who hold to a Mid-Acts Perspective also hold to the sound view that all are born sinners in Adam's transgression.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

All have sinned...in Adam.

Because all are born in Adam.

It is why all...being as all are...born in Adam...all eventually...die.
 

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In Adam - Spiritually Dead and Physically Dying

In Adam - Spiritually Dead and Physically Dying

By the way, AMR - MANY a Pastor-Teacher who hold to a Mid-Acts Perspective also hold to the sound view that all are born sinners in Adam's transgression.

It is why all...being as all are...born in Adam...all eventually...die.
From the above, then I assume you are actually affirming that "all are born sinners and sin because they are sinners" and not "all are born morally neutral and become sinners when they sin". After all, the former accords with what Scripture teaches us about the moral inability of the non-believer (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

If, as you state MAD Pastor-Teachers affirm "all are born sinners," then what I have just stated should not be disagreeable. I just want to make sure there is no equivocation in what you are saying, given your "
It is why all...being as all are...born in Adam...all eventually...die," which would seem to imply you are not explicitly affirming the view that all are born sinners means all are born spiritually dead and will also physically die.

AMR
 

Crucible

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What evidence can anyone give that demonstrates that the sin of Adam and the result of that sin as well as the guilt of that sin passed to all of his descendants?

The fact that nobody has been able to live without committing a sin is a pretty demonstrated evidence, hombre :chuckle:

The exception is Jesus
And
He was not a mere person
 

Jonahdog

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Christians cannot even agree on basic doctrinal matters. If your deity loves you why would it not be clearer so that everyone could agree and life would be so much easier.
 

popsthebuilder

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Christians cannot even agree on basic doctrinal matters. If your deity loves you why would it not be clearer so that everyone could agree and life would be so much easier.
It isn't the ever-giving, long suffering love of GOD that should be in question, but the lack of love for GOD and creation that is the issue among Christian's it seems.

peace

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