ONLY Y-H-W-H is God, besides Him there is no God

[Elia]

Bs'd


The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.

People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel

So if anybody wants to say that JC was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that JC was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.

But then you encounter the following problems:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.


Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.


Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???


When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???


Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???


Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?


Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that JC was or is God.

And from that we learn that Christians who worship JC are idol worshipers.

For more information why JC was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Bs'd

Why is it that Christians cannot accept the simple BIBLICAL facts that only Y-H-W-H is God, and that there is no God besides Him?

Why is it that Christians cannot accept the simple BIBLICAL fact that Y-H-W-H is ONE?

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.​

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”




In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

absolutely - to Him every knee shall and must bow and every tongue shall and must confess that Jesus Christ as Y-H-W-H is King of Kings and Lord of Lords -

Bs'd

The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.

People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel

So if anybody wants to say that JC was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that JC was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.

But then you encounter the following problems:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.


Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.


Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???


When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???


Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???


Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?


Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that JC was or is God.

And from that we learn that Christians who worship JC are idol worshipers.

For more information why JC was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com



In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

 

[Apple7]

that 1 + 1 = 2, and NOT 1.

What about 1 = 1 = 1

Refute that...

 

[Elia]

What about 1 = 1 = 1

Refute that...

Bs'd

If you resort to these type of arguments, then no refutation is necessary.


A "God the Father" and a "god the son" is TWO (2) gods, and not one.

Because 1 + 1 = 2.

And that makes Christianity polytheism, and with that idolatry.




In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

What about 1 = 1 = 1

Refute that...

Bs'd

The most crazy argument I ever heard in my life....

 

[Apple7]

A "God the Father" and a "god the son" is TWO (2) gods, and not one.

Because 1 + 1 = 2.

God is not the result of counted things.

Try again...

 

[Omniskeptical]

Bs’d

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

You have only proven that there is one God called YHWH, but you have not disproven the other supernatural beings, ie dieties, in the universe.

 

[Omniskeptical]

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.

Be careful not to bow to any rabbis then. You might idolize them.

 

[Elia]

You have only proven that there is one God called YHWH, but you have not disproven the other supernatural beings, ie dieties, in the universe.

Bs'd

I'll disprove that with the following:


Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.” [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Elia]

God is not the result of counted things.

Try again...

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.​

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.




In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[
Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.

Those who deny the fact that the angel of His presence or the angel of God is not God puts their preconceived ideas above what the OT Scriptures teach. Here we see a passage in regard to the angel of God and He calls Himself a "God":

"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred" (Gen.31:11-13).​

 

[Pierac]

Those who deny the fact that the angel of His presence or the angel of God is not God puts their preconceived ideas above what the OT Scriptures teach. Here we see a passage in regard to the angel of God and He calls Himself a "God":

"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred" (Gen.31:11-13).​

Yea... Moses said he was God too... so what's your point?

Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3).
Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that." :think:

Who gave the Law to Man Jerry Shugart?

Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,

Angels... not a Angel :think:

What your seeing is the Hebraic concept of Agency

It's a common feature of the Hebrew Bible... the concept (some even call it the “law” ) of Jewish agency. All Old Testament scholars and commentators recognize that in Jewish custom whenever a superior commissioned an agent to act on his behalf, the agent was regarded as the person himself. This is well expressed in the Encyclopedia of the Jewish religion.

Thus in Hebrew custom whenever an agent was sent to act for his master it was as though that lord himself was acting and speaking. An equivalent in our culture to the Jewish custom of agency would be one who is authorized to act as Power of Attorney, or more strongly one who is given Enduring Power of Attorney. Such an agent has virtually unlimited powers to act on behalf of the one who appointed him.


Knowing this principle helps us with other apparent difficulties, even seeming contradictions through the Scriptures. Lets look at one New Testament example. The story that has created a problem to many minds is the one concerning the healing of the Centurion’s servant.

In Matthew's account (Matt 8:5-13), it is the Centurion himself who comes to Jesus and begs him to heal his servant. The Centurion himself says, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering great pain" (v.6).

However, the parallel account in Luke (Luke 7:1-10) states that the Centurion did not personally go and speak to Jesus. He actually sent or commissioned as his agents “some Jewish elders.” These Jewish elders pleaded with Jesus on behalf of the Centurion saying, "He is worthy for you to grant this to him; for he loves our nation, and it was he who built us our synagogue" (v.4-5)

So who actually went to Jesus here? Did these gospel writers get confused? Are the detractors perhaps right to say that the Bible is full of errors and contradictions? Not at all! The difficulty is cleared up when we understand the Hebrew mind behind these Scriptures. The answer to who actually stood before Jesus is the elders. They had been sent by the Centurion. Matthew in typical Hebrew idiom has the Centurion himself there and speaking in the first person before Jesus. The agent is as the principal himself.

Now back to your Gen.31:11-13 comments.... above... Your wrong according to Hosea 12:3-4 which says,

“As a man he [Jacob] struggled with God; he struggled with “the angel” and overcame him. So the one who is called both “a man” and “God” in Genesis is identified as an angel in Hosea. This is a perfect example of Jewish agency where the agent is considered as the principal.

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Omniskeptical]

Thus he failed to do, and was banned for it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yea... Moses said he was God too... so what's your point?

You conveniently do not address the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel oh His presence, obviously referring to God's presence:

In this passage from the OT we see two Persons of the Godhead, and one is called the “Angel of His presence”:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":

"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).​

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

 

[Bright Raven]

Then who is Adonai, El Shaddai etc?

 

[JosephR]

Then who is Adonai, El Shaddai etc?

Those are Hebrew names for Lord, the traditional personal name of God is only the Tetragrammaton I'm sure you know that commonly used as YHWH or YahWeh or Jehovah in English .



Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Pierac]

You conveniently do not address the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel oh His presence, obviously referring to God's presence:

In this passage from the OT we see two Persons of the Godhead, and one is called the “Angel of His presence”:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":

"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).​

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

Yea... just not seeing... or even reading about this Godhead you write about? No... nothing about your traditions of men Godhead in these verses what so ever...

Hey... let me rock your world again... :chuckle:

Now let's review another example of Agency... look at Exodus 23:20-23. Notice 'my name is in him!' (agency)

"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself? :think:

Time for you to get off the milk and grow up to chew on some biblical meat Jerry Shugart! Time for you to take off those spiritual diapers...

Here's a hint... That angel that could pardon transgressions... (Sins) was not Jesus!!!

How do I know??? The other Paul told us!!!

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

There is no Son speaking long ago to the fathers in the prophets!!! :readthis:
oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[Time for you to get off the milk and grow up to chew on some biblical meat Jerry Shugart! Time for you to take off those spiritual diapers...

Paul, you show your immaturity by refusing to deal with what is said in this passage and the ones which follow:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":

"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).​

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

Why do you not address what these verses are saying?

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

You stopped too soon or else we could have read what is said just a few verses later:

" But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom" (Heb.1:8).​

If the Son is not God why would the Father say this about Him?:

"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever..."​

 

[Pierac]

Paul, you show your immaturity by refusing to deal with what is said in this passage and the ones which follow:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":

"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).​

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

Why do you not address what these verses are saying?

Isaiah 9: 5
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God. Wrong! If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septaugint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning mesenger. But we will address the ones that do just for arguments sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it in to other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God). Let’s see what a Hebrew dictionary and a Hebrew lexicon tells us about this word.

The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah. In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."
Footnote:
"Wonder- Counselor: remarkable for his wisdom and prudence. God-Hero: a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself. Father-forever: ever devoted to his people. Prince of peace: his reign will be characterized by peace."

This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.

This matches what I found using net Bible...

Like I said earlier, we need to look at the scripture in question. What is the Book or Chapter about? What are the verses before and after saying? (Context is king!)

Net Bible Isa 9:6 For a child has been15 born to us, son has been given to us. He shoulders Responsibility and is called:16 Extraordinary Strategist,17 Mighty God,18 Everlasting Father,19 Prince of Peace.20


17 Since Isa_11:2 points out that this king will receive the spirit of the Lord, which will enable him to counsel, it is possible to argue that the king's counsel is "extraordinary" because it finds its source in the divine spirit. (Anointed) Thus this title does not necessarily suggest that the ruler is deity

18 tn âÌÄáÌåÉø (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways. A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see J. H. Hayes and S. A. Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Psa_45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth.

19 tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. ( To do so would be theologically problematic, for the "Son" is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the "Father." ) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of "father" see Isa_22:21 and Job_29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of "father" is not limited to the Bible. In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 B.C.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: "To some I was a father, to others I was a mother." In another inscription (ca. 800 B.C.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him "a father and a mother" to his people. (See ANET 499-500.) The use of "everlasting" might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king's long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1Ki_1:31; Psa_21:4-6; Psa_61:6-7; Psa_72:5; Psa_72:17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title "Mighty God") is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.

20 tn This title pictures the king as one who establishes a safe socio-economic environment for his people. It hardly depicts him as a meek individual, for he establishes peace through military strength (as the preceding context and the first two royal titles indicate). His people experience safety and prosperity because their invincible king destroys their enemies. See Psalms 72 and 144 for parallels to these theme.


Also important to note are the words in the verse. You will note most of the translations read… “will be called” or “shall be called” This is more of a concept of agency than actually being. There is a big difference between being call something, as in(agency) and actually being. No translations ever read “He Is. ”

This verse is actually a great example of how a western mind can read a verse literally and come away with a completely wrong impression. The Hebraic back ground is needed to fully understand this verse as it was intended to be understood!


oly::sherlock:
Paul