Apple7
New member
Nope.
Scripture tells us that they have ONE name, as thus...
πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος
Try.
Again.
ONLY Y-H-W-H is God, besides Him there is no God
- Thread starter Elia
- Start date
- Status
Nope.
Scripture tells us that they have ONE name, as thus...
πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος
Try.
Again.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Forget about the Christian lies.
There is only ONE God, and besides Him there is no god:
Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".
But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.
Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”
Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”
Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”
Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”
II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”
I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”
II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”
Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”
Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”
Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”
Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”
Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”
Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”
Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”
Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”
Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”
Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”
Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”
Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”
Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”
Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”
Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”
And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?
Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”
Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”
II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”
I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”
I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”
II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”
Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."
Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”
Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”
Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
My pleasure:
The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.
You are in denial about your idolatry:
The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they are worshiping statues.
The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that their clergy are child rapists, the result of the Catholic celibate.
The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.
The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that the Bible teaches that God is one, and not three, and not a trinity.
The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they threw overboard the law of God and replaced it with paganism.
The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that a God the Father and a god the son is TWO (2) gods.
Amen and HalleluJah!
Run from it! :dog:
שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד
Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.
And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9
Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.
Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.
Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Why are you peddling these lies??
שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד
Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.
And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9
Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.
Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.
Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call three one, and one three!
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
ttruscott
Well-known member
Bs'd to you too.
I peddle because I believe. If two can be one, why not three?
Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
ONE: Strong's H259 - 'echad
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) one (number)
a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)
Two counted as / becoming ONE. Does the man disappear? Does the woman disappear? Nope, still two people in two bodies but only one flesh.
And for those who want to see the oneness of these two bodies being in the child they produce: 1 Corinthians 6:16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."
Peace, Ted
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Judging by your level of math, I have to conclude you are an elementary school drop-out.
Let me clarify this for you: One is one, and two is two.
Two is not one, and one is not two.
Boy, it is not only that Christians cannot count to two, but they don't even know the difference between one and two.
And then they say that the Jews are blinded???
Apple7
New member
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Saying one is equal to two is one step worse from the Christian rule that 1 + 1 = 1.
Apple7
New member
Mulla Sadra
Member
Okay, You are seriously debating an Arab about a word if it means female or male ?
SERIOUSLY ? It's this bad people's debate is getting here ?!
بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ ۖ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ ۖ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
بديع
Originator
السماوات و الأرض
Heaven and Earth
أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن له صاحبة
How can he have a child and he never had a (female) companion
(Plus, the واو in between the two verse, grammatically, means both are Negations)
وخلق كل شيء و هو بكل شيء عليم
And he created everything, and being in everything knowing.
I did the translation alone, and I am an Arab and there's not a small evidence for you in it, it says GOD DOESN'T HAVE A SON.
Don't try to manipulate an English translation, Alhammdulilah the Arabic script is quite straight.
And trying to define a word as like (بديع) is just a lousy fallacy to make another meaning for word that means (creator). no more no less.
-------------
The second verse is quite clear, THEY - as in Christians - said NOT Allah, He was NEGATING WHAT THEY (CHRISTIANS) SAID.
They say, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,
(link)
And to bring verses with (بديع) is nothing, zero, because the word means "create" and it came in the same meaning tons of times in Quran and Jesus wasn't anywhere near it.
Anyways the verses you talked about and didn't quote are :
46.9 :
The term used is "بَدعاً" in the meaning that the prophet, just like others would call for the ONE God. (the not flesh and bones one)
This meaning doesn't relate to Creation in anyway whatsoever.
Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."
Jesus is not anywhere to be seen the context,Moses is mentioned in some verses after it, so he is the new Flesh and Bones God ?
pfft
57.27
This verse talks about Jesus, but not just him but also Noah, Abraham and the other prophets before Jesus !
So it's not a feature, as you are trying to imply, neither it is any kind of evidence, because the meaning of creation - as I said - is mentioned hundreds of times, without any mentioning of Jesus.
(Before coming to this Forum, I didn't know there were any human on Earth who think Jesus made the World, And I am quite knowing in Quran, it never talks about such thing).
Also the word doesn't mean creation here, it means lying and how Christians changed in their theology
And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.
Please, You are making big fallacies, it doesn't say what you are saying, I know some Christian Arabs who tried better verses, thats MAY give the meaning IN ARABIC (these verses aren't even near from that), and the good thing that the Priests in the prophet's time tried to use the verses and the prophet's answers were quite decisive.
When we say Messiah we don't mean he died.
When we say Word of Allah, it doesn't mean he's God.
When we say he's a spirit from God, we don't mean he's son of God.
So, Don't even try
SERIOUSLY ? It's this bad people's debate is getting here ?!
بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ ۖ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ ۖ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
بديع
Originator
السماوات و الأرض
Heaven and Earth
أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن له صاحبة
How can he have a child and he never had a (female) companion
(Plus, the واو in between the two verse, grammatically, means both are Negations)
وخلق كل شيء و هو بكل شيء عليم
And he created everything, and being in everything knowing.
I did the translation alone, and I am an Arab and there's not a small evidence for you in it, it says GOD DOESN'T HAVE A SON.
Don't try to manipulate an English translation, Alhammdulilah the Arabic script is quite straight.
And trying to define a word as like (بديع) is just a lousy fallacy to make another meaning for word that means (creator). no more no less.
-------------
The second verse is quite clear, THEY - as in Christians - said NOT Allah, He was NEGATING WHAT THEY (CHRISTIANS) SAID.
They say, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,
(link)
And to bring verses with (بديع) is nothing, zero, because the word means "create" and it came in the same meaning tons of times in Quran and Jesus wasn't anywhere near it.
Anyways the verses you talked about and didn't quote are :
46.9 :
The term used is "بَدعاً" in the meaning that the prophet, just like others would call for the ONE God. (the not flesh and bones one)
This meaning doesn't relate to Creation in anyway whatsoever.
Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."
Jesus is not anywhere to be seen the context,Moses is mentioned in some verses after it, so he is the new Flesh and Bones God ?
pfft
57.27
This verse talks about Jesus, but not just him but also Noah, Abraham and the other prophets before Jesus !
So it's not a feature, as you are trying to imply, neither it is any kind of evidence, because the meaning of creation - as I said - is mentioned hundreds of times, without any mentioning of Jesus.
(Before coming to this Forum, I didn't know there were any human on Earth who think Jesus made the World, And I am quite knowing in Quran, it never talks about such thing).
Also the word doesn't mean creation here, it means lying and how Christians changed in their theology
And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.
Please, You are making big fallacies, it doesn't say what you are saying, I know some Christian Arabs who tried better verses, thats MAY give the meaning IN ARABIC (these verses aren't even near from that), and the good thing that the Priests in the prophet's time tried to use the verses and the prophet's answers were quite decisive.
When we say Messiah we don't mean he died.
When we say Word of Allah, it doesn't mean he's God.
When we say he's a spirit from God, we don't mean he's son of God.
So, Don't even try
Apple7
New member
As already demonstrated, even your googled rendering never mentions a female.
As for your claim of being an Arab…nope.
We eat Arabs for breakfast…
Don’t be shy about defining the word…
بديع = ‘badeeAA’
‘badeeAA’ definition:
Active 2nd participle. Originated; invented; innovated; made done, produced, caused to be or exist, or brought into existence, newly, for the first time not having been or existed before, and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing; new; wonderful; unknown before. An originator, inventor, or innovator; one who makes, does, or produces, causes to be or exist, or brings into existence, newly, for the first time and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. Wonderful originator, without depending upon any matter or pattern or help; wonderful thing; thing which is not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. A novelty; or thing existing for the first time; a first doer; as though meaning one who has none among his fellows to share, or participate, with him in a thing, or an affair. Such a one is the first doer in this affair; the first who has done it. Applied to a man, superlative in his kind in anything; in good and in evil; or in knowledge, or courage, or nobility. A man liberal in disposition. A full body.
It comes from the root ‘bada’a’ (ba-dal-ayn), which means to produce something new, begin a thing, find out a new thing; create a thing. He became superlative in his kind; or it became so in its kind; in good or in evil; he was, or became, fat.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 166 - 167
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 44
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 27
Occurrences of ‘badeeAAu’ in the Koran: 2
Locations: 2.117, 6.101
Occurrences of the root ‘bada’a’, and its 3 derivatives in the Koran: 4
Locations: 2.117, 6.101, 46.9, 57.27
As already shown, the only two occurrences of ‘badeeAAu’ have Jesus as the subject.
The other two locations are about Jesus.
Agreed.
Examining the words in question…
ولد = ‘waladu’
‘waladun’ definition:
Noun. Singular and plural. A child, son, daughter, youngling, or young one: and children, sons, daughters, offspring, young, or younglings,: of any kind: often applied to an unborn child, etc, a fetus.
It comes from the root “walada”, which means she (a woman, or mother, or any animal having an ear, as distinguished from one having merely an ear-hole) brought forth a child, or young one; or children, young, or offspring; to beget, give birth. He begot a child, or young one, etc.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2966 - 2968
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 620 - 621
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 162
يكون = ‘yakoonu’
‘yakoonu’ definition:
Imperfect, 3rd person singular. Is.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3004
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 500 -502
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 169
ل = ‘la’
‘la’ definition:
A prefixed affirmative particle, verily, surely, certainly, indeed, truly. Prefix: an affirmative intensifying particle, used as a corroborative. A preposition denoting possession. It is also used as a preposition expressing attribution, design. Inseparable adverbial particle.
References:
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 504 - 505
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 282
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 129
ه = ‘hu’
‘hu’ definition:
An indeclinable affixed personal or possessive pronoun of third person singular masculine; when affixed to a verb or preposition as a person pronoun, it means him or it; and when to a noun as a possessive, his or it. Singular personal or possessive pronoun. Him. Verbal suffix which expresses the accusative.
References:
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 100
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 152
Thus…
له = ‘la’ + ‘hu’ = ‘lahu’ = certainly his
No.
The term that is utilized is ‘walam’ and it is only negating the companion portion.
The Son has already been confirmed as truth.
As applied to the Son.
Apple7
New member
There are many ayat in the Koran which proclaim that Jesus is the Son...
Glory be to the Son
ما كان لله أن يتخذ من ولد سبحنه إذا قضى أمرا فإنما يقول له كن فيكون
Ma kana lillahi an yattakhitha min waladin subhanahu itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu
19.35 That was to “allah” that he takes of a Son, glory be to Him when He issued a decree, commanded, so only truly His, He says: "Be you.” So He has been.
This ayah demonstrates yet another Koranic example of the Son having the ability to create with His powerful word.
The Son brings the End Times
وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا لقد جئتم شيءا إدا تكاد السموت يتفطرن منه وتنشق الأرض وتخر الجبال هدا أن دعوا للرحمن ولدا وما ينبغي للرحمن أن يتخذ ولدا
Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan laqad ji/tum shay-an iddan takadu alssamawatu yatafattarna minhu watanshaqqu al-ardu watakhirru aljibalu haddan an daAAaw lilrrahmani waladan Wama yanbaghee lilrrahmani an yattakhitha waladan
And they said: "The most merciful he has taken a Son. Truly You came, a disastrous thing.” The heavens are well nigh (to) burst from Him and the earth she cleaves asunder and then later the mountains fall down into pieces violently with noise. That they called to the most merciful a Son. And that it is convenient to the most merciful that he takes a Son. 19.88 – 92
Contrary to popular Islamic thinking, these ayahs actually proclaim Jesus Christ as the “convenient” Son by first quoting what they said “qaloo”, and then shifting to the singular destruction which Jesus Christ brings during the end times as He opens the Seven seals of Revelation.
Glory be to Him the uncreated Son
لو أراد الله أن يتخذ ولدا لاصطفى مما يخلق ما
يشاء سبحنه هو الله الوحد القهار
Law arada Allahu an yattakhitha waladan laistafa mimma yakhluqu ma yashao subhanahu huwa Allahu alwahidu alqahharu
39.4 Although “allah” he intended that he takes a Son; he has not chosen from that which he creates, (but) what he wills, glory be to Him; he, allah”, the one, the supreme.
39.4 is yet another clear Arabic ayah that boldly proclaims that Jesus is the Son.
In fact, it is stated that “he intended” (“arada” – completed action) that he takes (“yattakhitha”) a Son.
The stipulation being that the Son does not come from anything that is created (“yakhluqu”).
This should sound extremely familiar, as it proclaims that the Son (i.e. Jesus Christ) is uncreated!
A Son that has always existed.
Further, the very next ayah, 39.5, point-blank tells us that the Son is Jesus Christ as thus…
خلق السموت والأرض بالحق يكور اليل على النهار ويكور النهار على اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لأجل مسمى ألا هو العزيز الغفر
Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru
39.5 He created the heavens and the earth through 'The Truth'. He causes to revolve the night onto the day, and He causes to revolve the day onto the night, and He made subservient the sun and the moon, each pursues its course to a fixed and appointed term, is He not the all-mighty, the most protecting one?
This ayah tells us that “allah” created the known Universe with the help of ‘The Truth’.
It is already a very well established fact that ‘The Truth’ is repeatedly mentioned as a deity attribute of Jesus Christ in both the Holy Bible as well as the Koran.
Now…once again… “allah” is shown to be in need of assistance in creating the Universe.
The assistance of the Son.
Indeed, the Arabic is very clear...
The classic lexicons disagree with you.
Context also disagrees with you...
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
It is only the Christians who say 1 + 1 = 1. The Tanach doesn't say so.
"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Mulla Sadra
Member
Oh my God, this man is trying to teach me Arabic.
You are translating wrong !
What do you mean you eat Arabs on breakfast ?!!
I fail to find any kind of discussion with you.
I want you to come to me with a word in English, that means (companion) and only for female ! A word without any additions.
I am not going to read a non-sense that tells me صاحبة is for female and male.
صاحب = companion as in male
صاحبة = companion as in female
the (ة) is called the feminine letter that got no grammatical position.
If you want bring a Christian Arab who can testify!
When you say صاحبة is female I will be able to make conversation with you.
If you are trying to lie in Language, I am not sure how you will be able not to in Theology.
That's all I can say, because you are a (fool) with all due respects who wrote two long posts to tell me that a feminine word is for males.
I must say you are also a poor man to believe you are right.
You are translating wrong !
What do you mean you eat Arabs on breakfast ?!!
I fail to find any kind of discussion with you.
I want you to come to me with a word in English, that means (companion) and only for female ! A word without any additions.
I am not going to read a non-sense that tells me صاحبة is for female and male.
صاحب = companion as in male
صاحبة = companion as in female
the (ة) is called the feminine letter that got no grammatical position.
If you want bring a Christian Arab who can testify!
When you say صاحبة is female I will be able to make conversation with you.
If you are trying to lie in Language, I am not sure how you will be able not to in Theology.
That's all I can say, because you are a (fool) with all due respects who wrote two long posts to tell me that a feminine word is for males.
I must say you are also a poor man to believe you are right.
Apple7
New member
No.
There is no negation in the above verse…only affirmation.
As already shown, The Son is always the subject matter in these ayat.
Anyways the verses you talked about and didn't quote are :
46.9 :
The term used is "بَدعاً" in the meaning that the prophet, just like others would call for the ONE God. (the not flesh and bones one)
This meaning doesn't relate to Creation in anyway whatsoever.
Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."
Jesus is not anywhere to be seen the context,Moses is mentioned in some verses after it, so he is the new Flesh and Bones God ?
pfft
‘The Truth’ always refers to Jesus in the Koran…and this is contained in the context.
It is all about the Son.
Wrong.
‘The Truth’ according to the Koran
Defining the term…
الحق = “alhaqqi”
“alhaqqi” definition:
Singular masculine noun. The Truth; one of the names of “allah”; one of the names of God; due share; justice; right claim; what ought to be; duty; incumbent.
It comes from the root “haqqa” (ha-qaf-qaf), which means it was, or became, suitable to the requirements of wisdom, justice, right or rightness, truth, or reality, or fact; or to the exigencies of the case; it was, or became, just, proper, right, correct, or true; authentic, genuine, sound, valid, substantial, or real; established, or confirmed as truth or fact; and necessitated, obligatory, incumbent or due; it was, or became, a manifest and an indubitable fact or event; it happened, betided, or befell, surely, without doubt or uncertainty. To be right, just or fitting, worthy of, justly due to, proper, genuine, real, a fact, true, necessitated, suitable, necessary, incumbent upon, suited to the requirement of justice, become certain, authentic, deserve.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 605 – 610
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 131
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 36 - 37
Per the classic definition, “alhaqqi” means ‘The Truth’, and is actually a name for “allah”, and a name for God.
Knowing this, observe how “alhaqqi” is applied to Jesus Christ in the Koran, as the following quintessential Koranic ayah informs us that ‘The Truth’, is only Jesus Christ…
يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا
Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan
4.171 You The Book's family, do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only The Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe by “allah”, and his messengers, and they do not say "Three." Refrain (it is) certainly agreeable to you, only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed by “allah”, a witness.
Exception…
The first word that we encounter in this ayah, after the term “allah”, is “illa” which gives exception to what follows it, as told to us by the classic definition…
إلا = “illa”
“illa” definition:
Regarded as a simple word. If not; unless; except; some; otherwise; less; but; and; also. This word is used to signify the sense of exception. This exception is of two kinds: 1) Exception in which the thing excepted belongs to the same class or species to which the things from which an exception is sought to be made, belongs. 2) Exception in which the excepted thing belongs to a different class or species. It commonly governs the accusative. It also means not even.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 76 - 78
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 27
The exception, which applies to “alhaqqa”, (‘The Truth’) is then juxtaposed to the following word “innama”…
إنما = “innama”
“innama” definition:
According to the grammarians, it is a compound of “inna” and “ma”, which latter prevents the former’s having any government: it imports restriction: it imports the restriction of that which it precedes to that which follows it. In other words, it is used to particularize, or specify, or distinguish a thing from other things: it affirms a thing in relation to that which is mentioned after it, and denies it in relation to other things. Some say that it does not import restriction, but only corroboration of an affirmation, because it is a compound of the corroborative “inna” and the redundant “ma” which restrains the former from exercising government, and that it has no application to denote negation implied in restriction. It therefore seems that it is susceptible of both these meanings, bearing one or the other according as this or that suits the place. Rendered as “only”, verily.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 103 – 111; 118
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 285
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 35
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 11
The classic definition quite clearly states that “innama” affirms a thing in relation to that which is mentioned after it.
Thus, “alhaqqi” (i.e. The Truth), is the “thing” that is being related to Jesus – which is mentioned after it.
The exception is Jesus Christ, in a class all by Himself.
Hence, “The Truth is only Jesus Christ”.
Now that we understand that the authors’ of the Koran have the same Biblical understanding as to ‘The Truth’ pertaining only Jesus Christ; let’s define the one final term in this discussion and see exactly how it is used to describe the creation of the Universe in the Koran.
First, the preposition…
ب = “bi”
“bi” definition:
An inseparable preposition, prefixed to the word it governs, which, when a noun, is put in the genitive; it has diverse significations as: in, by, at, with, to, into, upon, for, or by reason of; from; with the help of; during; On account of; according to, near, through. It is used to denote adhesion of the verb to that to which it is itself prefixed; and adjunction, or association. It is also used to render a verb transitive. It is used to denote the employing a thing as an aid or instrument. It denotes a cause. It is used to denote concomitance. Before a noun signifying a place or time. It denotes substitution, meaning instead of, as in place of. It denotes requital; or the giving, or doing, in return. It is said to be peculiar to interrogation. It denotes a part of the whole. It is used to denote swearing. It denotes the end of an extent or interval. It is also redundant, to denote corroboration: and is prefixed to the agent. Frequently an expletive, when put before the compliment of a negative proposition. It also denotes the object of a transitive verb and supports the subject that is termed “zaidah” (additional). It is also used as a corroborative to confirm and to make more certain. It also denotes swear, comparison, in place of, for, from, over, on, a part of, at all, rest of.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 141 – 144
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, pp. 278 - 279
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 40 - 41
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 14
Interestingly, “bi” carries with it the same definitions “by”, “through”, & “for”, same as found used to describe Jesus’ creation of the Universe. For this discussion we will just use the definition “through”.
Thus, the Koranic term under discussion:
بالحق = “bi” + “al” + “haqqi” = “bialhaqqi” = through ‘The Truth’
Koranic creation accounts using the term “bialhaqqi”:
• 6.73
• 10.5
• 14.19
• 15.85
• 16.3
• 29.44
• 30.8
• 39.5
• 44.38 – 39
• 45.22
• 46.3
• 64.3
Observe the following five Koranic ayahs, which clearly separate and negate that “allah” solely created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them – and, instead, gives exception (via the insertion of the term “illa”, i.e. except) juxtaposed to “bialhaqqi” (through ‘The Truth’), thus placing ‘The Truth’ into the necessary casual agent class – completely separate from “allah”, just as previously witnessed in 4.171.
The first example shown is an open admission that previous verses are explained in detail (yufassilu al-ayati). The fact that this had to be mentioned in the first place demonstrates that the material that is being detailed (i.e. the Holy Bible) was already in existence.
10.5
هو الذي جعل الشمس ضياء والقمر نورا
وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما
خلق الله ذلك إلا بالحق يفصل الءايت لقوم
يعلمون
Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila litaAAlamoo AAadada alssineena waalhisaba ma khalaqa Allahu thalika illa bialhaqqi yufassilu al-ayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona
10.5 He whom he made the sun light and the moon light, and He decreed it stations to you know; counted the years and the reckoning, “allah” he did not create that except through ‘The Truth’; explain in detail the verses to a nation they know.
15.85
وما خلقنا السموت والأرض وما بينهما إلا بالحق وإن الساعة لءاتية فاصفح الصفح الجميل
Wama khalaqna alssamawati waal-arda wama baynahuma illa bialhaqqi wa-inna alssaAAata laatiyatun faisfahi alssafha aljameela
15.85 And we did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them except through ‘The Truth’, and truly the Hour it will come to pass, so you pardon, the turn away, the beautiful.
30.8
أولم يتفكروا في أنفسهم ما خلق الله السموت والأرض وما بينهما إلا بالحق وأجل مسمى وإن كثيرا من الناس بلقائ ربهم لكفرون
Awa lam yatafakkaroo fee anfusihim ma khalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-arda wama baynahuma illa bialhaqqi waajalin musamman wa-inna katheeran mina alnnasi biliqa-i rabbihim lakafiroona
30.8 Did they do not reflect in their souls, “allah” he did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them except through ‘The Truth’, and a fixed and appointed term, and that many from the people, with meeting their Lord, disbelieving people.
44.38 – 39
وما خلقنا السموت والأرض وما بينهما لعبين ما خلقنهما إلا بالحق ولكن أكثرهم لا يعلمون
Wama khalaqna alssamawati waal-arda wama baynahuma laAAibeena ma khalaqnahuma illa bialhaqqi walakinna aktharahum la yaAAlamoona
And we did not create the heavens and the earth and what (is) between (for) those who play. We did not create them except through ‘The Truth’, and most of them they do not know. (44.38 – 39)
46.3
ما خلقنا السموت والأرض وما بينهما إلا بالحق وأجل مسمى والذين كفروا عما أنذروا معرضون
Ma khalaqna alssamawati waal-arda wama baynahuma illa bialhaqqi waajalin musamman waallatheena kafaroo AAamma onthiroo muAAridoona
46.3 We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them except through ‘The Truth’, and a fixed and appointed term, and whom they disbelieved therefore that they had been warned, averse.
As further evidence that the causal agent for the creation of the Universe is through ‘The Truth’ (i.e. Jesus Christ); we have the following six ayahs.
This first example is even an open admission that previous revelation (i.e. the Holy Bible) contained this information.
29.44
خلق الله السموت والأرض بالحق إن في ذلك لءاية للمؤمنين
Khalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi inna fee thalika laayatan lilmu-mineena
29.44 “allah” he created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, truly in that previous Revelation to believers.
14.19
ألم تر أن الله خلق السموت والأرض بالحق إن يشأ يذهبكم ويأت بخلق جديد
Alam tara anna Allaha khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi in yasha yuthhibkum waya/ti bikhalqin jadeedin
14.19 Do you not see that “allah” he created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, if He wills, He takes you away and He comes with a new creation?
16.3
خلق السموت والأرض بالحق تعلى عما يشركون
Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi taAAala AAamma yushrikoona
16.3 He created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, high above, from what they associate partners.
39.5
خلق السموت والأرض بالحق يكور اليل على النهار ويكور النهار على اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لأجل مسمى ألا هو العزيز الغفر
Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru
39.5 He created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’. He causes to revolve the night onto the day, and He causes to revolve the day onto the night, and He made subservient the sun and the moon, each pursues its course to a fixed and appointed term, is He not the all-mighty, the most protecting one?
45.22
وخلق الله السموت والأرض بالحق ولتجزى كل نفس بما كسبت وهم لا يظلمون
Wakhalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi walitujza kullu nafsin bima kasabat wahum la yuthlamoona
45.22 And “allah” he created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, and to you shall be given reward each soul with what she accomplished, and they shall not be wronged.
64.3
خلق السموت والأرض بالحق وصوركم فأحسن صوركم وإليه المصير
Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi wasawwarakum faahsana suwarakum wa-ilayhi almaseeru
64.3 He created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, and He formed you, so He did good (in) your forms, and to Him the return.
Reviewing, once again, this quintessential Koranic ayah, we are told that ‘The Truth’, Jesus Christ, is also ‘The Word’…
يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا
Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan
4.171 You The Book's family, do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except ‘The Truth’ (is) only The Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe by “allah”, and his messengers, and they do not say "Three." Refrain (it is) certainly agreeable to you, only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed by “allah”, a witness.
Just as proclaimed in 4.171, this final ayah repeats and confirms that ‘The Truth’ is also ‘his Word’ (qawluhu alhaqqu), as thus…
6.73
وهو الذي خلق السموت والأرض بالحق ويوم
يقول كن فيكون قوله الحق وله الملك يوم ينفخ
في الصور علم الغيب والشهدة وهو الحكيم
الخبير
Wahuwa allathee khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi wayawma yaqoolu kun fayakoonu qawluhu alhaqqu walahu almulku yawma yunfakhu fee alssoori AAalimu alghaybi waalshshahadati wahuwa alhakeemu alkhabeeru
6.73 And he whom created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, and a day He says: "Be." So it becomes; his Word (is) ‘The Truth’, and certainly He (is) the King; a day the horn will be blown into, knower (of) the unseen, and the testimony, and He is the wise, the ever aware.
Mulla Sadra
Member
As I said I fail to make discussion with you, while you are damaging me language, and telling me you can eat me on breakfast.
I guess Orthodox are always, as foolish, in connecting verse in Quran.
Especially Coptic.
I guess Orthodox are always, as foolish, in connecting verse in Quran.
Especially Coptic.
Apple7
New member
You don't get out too much, do you....
Even the authors of the Koran knew that Jesus is the Creator.
What is your excuse now?
You speak from islamic myth 101.
The authors of the Koran have only praise for the Holy Bible.
You should too.
Your defense of your position is a complete joke.
When asked about Jesus’ Crucifixion, Muslims like youself will invariably reference one ayah from the Koran, to support their conviction.
Islam bases an entire doctrine regarding Jesus’ crucifixion & death upon the cross, on a single solitary Koranic ayah.
And in this single solitary ayah, the entire doctrine teeters upon the rendering of a single solitary word (wama) – which Islam has misinterpreted as a negative.
The correct rendering of this ayah is as thus…
وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan
4.157 And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.
To overcome the Muslim mindset, we need to first define the Arabic word that has been misinterpreted by Islam.
Here is the classic Arabic definition for "ma"...
ما = “ma”
“ma” definition:
Conjunctive pronoun. That; which; that which; whatsoever; what; as; as much; in such a manner as; as much as; as for as; any kind; when; how. Does not, as a rule, refer to reasonable things, but instances to the contrary sometimes occur. It is one of those particles, which, in conditional propositions, govern the verb in the conditional mood; it is frequently a mere expletive. It is also a negative adverb, Not; in general it denies a circumstance either present, or of past, but little remote from the present; it governs the attribute in the accusative, thus it is a negative particle when placed before the perfect as in 53.2; or before a pronoun as in 68.2; or before an demonstrative noun as in 12.31. The particle, when joined to the perfect, denies the past; when joined to the imperfect, the present.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3016
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 2, p. 300
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 523 - 524
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 135 - 136
As we can see below..."ma", when joined to "wa", is simply a filler-word in this ayah...
وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan
4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.
As witnessed by the plethora of positives in this ayah, the conditional mood is only positive.
Couple this, to the very next ayah, as thus…
بل رفعه الله إليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيما
Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman
4.158 But “allah”, he raised Him to him, and “allah” mighty, wise.
4.157 & 4.158 tell us of its most likely Biblical source...
This One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him. But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it. (Act 2.23 - 24)
As we can see, 4.157 & 4.158 are simply parroting NT material...
Thus, context is clear that in 4.157 “wama” is simply governing the verb in the conditional mood – which is positive….NOT negative.
Further, rendering this Islamic one-hit-wonder ayah as a negative would force other Koranic ayahs into contradiction.
As further evidence that 4.157 confirms Jesus’ death upon the cross, all the Koranic crucifixion instances are shown here, which confirm that the Koran always describes a crucifixion event with complete certainty of death…
• 5.33…they will be crucified till death
• 7.124…I will surely crucify you till death
• 12.41…so will be crucified till death
• 20.71…and I will surely crucify you till death
• 26.49…and I will surely crucify you till death
Death through crucifixion is always mandated in the Koran.
Thus, there is no reason at all to believe that 4.157 would break this trend…
It did to the authors of the Koran.
It did to the authors of the Koran.
So, Don't even try
Owned.
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Done.
Our exegesis shows otherwise.
Cat got your tongue?
A word being feminine or masculine does not mean that it must pertain to a certain gender.
Wake up!
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