So you think people continually lose the free gift of salvation, never to be saved? What that verse says is once saved always saved, read it some more
ECT Once Saved, Always Saved
- Thread starter Nick M
- Start date
Fisherofmen
Member
I used the words "continually" and "never"? Please start by not putting words in my mouth and we can go from there.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
:cloud9:
glorydaz
Well-known member
It says it's impossible......
Fisherofmen
Member
Very true. What is impossible glorydaz?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Because whichever way you interpret the verse, it's impossible.
Fisherofmen
Member
Please explain. What is impossible glorydaz? What is your interpretation?
Both sides of this debate are off - the writer of Hebrews is referring to those who had tasted the witness the signs of Pentecost had been meant to be unto Israel (see Matt.10; Mark 16; Acts 2; Acts 3; Heb. 2; etc.) but that Israel had continued to reject said witness' intended result - Israel's repentance.
Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Part of what throws throws off many is his use of the word "brethren."
But note how that is used, say, in Acts 3 (and elsewhere, when Israel is being addressed)...
Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Another issue is that the writer of Hebrews is addressing things from the perspective of an Israelite.
Such often calls for including oneself in said addressing, as a member of that nation...
As in the case of one of the greatest examples of faith in all of Scripture - the Israelite Prophet: Daniel - repeatedly, he includes himself In his nation's NATIONAL guilt.
Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. 9:7 O LORD, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee. 9:8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice. 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly. 9:16 O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Also, o never mind, lol
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
Fisherofmen
Member
Who had tasted the witness the signs of the Pentecost?!? What in the world are you saying? Post human sentences and get back to me.
Eternal life is eternal.
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29)
However, they forsake the kingdom.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Okay, putting aside for a moment that this is written to the "Hebrews" who we know were "partakers" of the Holy Ghost when they ate manna from heaven and drank water from the rock.....
If it's talking about unbelievers, as many think, they would be like the seed sown on dry ground that spring up for a time and then wither away. Jail house conversions, I call them. They but tasted the Good Word of God. If that were the case, this verse would be saying they could never stand a chance of hearing the Gospel and being saved.
If they were truly saved, they couldn't fall away for a time and even stand a chance of returning to the Lord.
Both of which are IMPOSSIBLE according to a multitude of verses. Therefore, you're left to get to the bottom of what this verse is actually addressing in regards to the Jews....to whom it is written.
The reason people drag up this verse to cause doubt about our assurance of salvation is because it is very unclear to the average reader. Heck, it's not that clear to the above average reader.
I think we see what's important in this verse that comes later... Even though this "impossibility" has been mentioned, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with "things that accompany salvation".
Heb. 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
It really has nothing to do with the Gospel of Salvation.
Fisherofmen
Member
Many think that those who taste the word of God, are illuminated and partake of the Holy Ghost are unbelievers? One would also have to be an unbeliever to interpret Heb. 6:4-6 in that manner. I'm not concerned with numbers. "Many" also wanted Jesus crucified.
Are you insinuating that one can be illuminated, partake in the Holy Ghost and not be saved?
Sure it does, the verse you posted (Heb. 6:9) states this clearly. St. Paul doesn't believe that the Hebrews will fall away, however. That doesn't mean that they won't or that others who are saved won't.
It has everything to do with salvation, as Heb. 6:9 states.
glorydaz
Well-known member
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Which brings us back to the Jews, doesn't it? Hebrews is the name of the book.
Romans 3:1-2
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Yes, I am, and that is what Danoh was going on about. Look at Pentecost. All those people heard the words spoken in their own language. Is that not partaking of the Holy Ghost?
Acts 2:4-8 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Don't like that?
1 Corinthians 10:3-5
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
lol - that is not all I posted - this was - "the writer of Hebrews is referring to those who had tasted the witness the signs of Pentecost had been meant to be unto Israel...".
Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Confirming the word - unto whom - with signs following?
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Towards what intent? Their repentance of having killed their Messiah, that with said repentance they might be partakers of His world to come when He returns.
For when He returns, it will be impossible to renew them to that offer.
Note...
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
You see that last clause there, at the end of verse 10?
That is this here...
Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
When?
What also did John the Baptist say not only about his own day, but about Acts 2's Pentecost, and also about that day of the Lord's return unto Israel at some point after that?
Mattew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
That is prior to their (Israel's) world to come the Lord had warned them their rejection of the signs of (by the Spirit), would not be forgiven them then, nor in its world to come...
Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
The Lord then went on to add to that...
Mattew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
We see those signs play out in Early Acts, together with that warning, once more...
Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
The writer of Hebrews is referring to all that...
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
He is talking about their need to get right before the Lord's return...
Why?
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
But prior to that will be this falling away that Daniel, Matthew, and Hebrews, etc., are referring to, followed by the Day of the Lord's Wrath...that John the Baptist mentioned.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Hebrews thru Revelation will once more address the issues in Early Acts that both the Apostle Paul and Peter assert God temporarily interrupted...
Paul on this, for example...
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
That last passage is speaking of that great day of His Wrath.
Why a short work?
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Now, either the Preterists/Partial Preterists are right; or Hebrews was now referring to a time yet future; with it's conditional salvation.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
I believe it is now yet future - thus, it's talk of chastening the Hebrews: straight out of Daniel 9's understanding of God's chastening Israel in accordance with their Law Covenant, during his prayer on behalf of his entire nation, as an Israelite under the Law.
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
The standard to enter into life is to keep the commandments. You offered up that truth in a thread about how salvation is an event, and once saved, always saved. It was not just an attempt to derail. Come out with your point regarding the law and salvation.
Fisherofmen
Member
Unfortunately you are wrong here so all of your verses are irrelevant. "The writer" refers specifically to those who were illuminated, tasted the word of God and had partook in the Holy Ghost (past tense). If such a person is not saved then none are saved. Such a person can indeed fall away as Scripture clearly states (Heb 6:4-6) and not be renewed. Heb. 6:9 confirms this regards salvation proper.
Jesus told a young man if he wanted eternal life to keep the commandments.
How difficult is that to understand?
You asked, I laid it out; backed by much more than "two or three witnesses" (all those passages; everyone one of them having to do with that).
Your reply?
An assertion clearly based on the same old traditions of men one endlessly hears "about" and or reads "about" in their endless books "about."
No offence intended, and none taken, but no thanks.
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
As difficult as obliviousness to the following makes it...
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
Jesus told the young man to keep the commandments if he wanted eternal life.
The young man went away sorrowful because of his wealth.
The man lacked faith to trust God instead of wealth.