On Cowards and Heroes

[Greg Jennings]

replace "deer" with "sheep"

Sure why not. Is a sheep in a field who runs from a bear who grabbed one of its flock-mates cowardly? Or is it simply trying to survive?


Cowardly
1. A reproachful designation for one who displays ignoble fear or want of courage in the face of danger, pain, or difficulty; an ignobly faint-hearted or pusillanimous person.

Your definition uses the word "ignoble." Do you know what that means? It means dishonorable. Do you consider running from a predator, as these students did, dishonorable?

 

[ok doser]

Sure why not. Is a sheep in a field who runs from a bear cowardly?


Cowardly
1. A reproachful designation for one who displays ignoble fear or want of courage in the face of danger, pain, or difficulty; an ignobly faint-hearted or pusillanimous person.

Your definition uses the word "ignoble." Do you know what that means? It means dishonorable. Do you consider running from a predator, as these students did, dishonorable?

First, I'm focused on the students mentioned in the wiki article, the ones who couldn't run, who were stuck in the classroom

Second, I'm focused on the "want of courage" part of the definition



But to answer your point, to run from a predator who is murdering your classmates is dishonorable

If you don't agree, consider this

Mintz did the opposite - he ran toward the danger to confront it and end it

Were his actions honorable?

 

[This Charming Manc]

To me a coward is a man who hides behind the saftey of the internet to criticise victims of a crime

 

[ok doser]

To me a coward is a man who hides behind the saftey of the internet to criticise victims of a crime

Because the behavior of cowards should be above criticism?


Manc - what would you have done if you were locked in that classroom with him?

What would you have done if he was killing your classmates?


What would you hope to have done?

 

[Greg Jennings]

First, I'm focused on the students mentioned in the wiki article, the ones who couldn't run, who were stuck in the classroom

They were in shock, plain and simple. Just as you likely would've been. Unless you've been in the line of fire before? Oh yeah, we've been through that, and you haven't.

Second, I'm focused on the "want of courage" part of the definition

Yes, arguments would be much more easily won if you could ignore the parts of dictionary definitions that defeated your point, wouldn't they?

But to answer your point, to run from a predator who is murdering your classmates is dishonorable

If you don't agree, consider this

Mintz did the opposite - he ran toward the danger to confront it and end it

Were his actions honorable?

Extremely honorable. Actually the word would be "heroic." That's because it's not what you're expected to do in that situation. He had, and I cannot stress this enough, military training. He was prepared for the situation in a way that none of the others were. Have you ever noticed that in situations like this either a police officer or military personnel are often the only ones who don't run away? For example the France train incident a few weeks back? That's because everyday people aren't trained to handle a situation like this. Most people are too stunned to move. The expression "deer in headlights" describes the feeling beautifully.

You seem to not understand that there is a gray area between honorable and dishonorable that is known as "SURVIVAL." It's not dishonorable to try and save your own life.

Again, unless you can tell me that you've been in this situation and acted heroically, which you by admission have not, you have no right to judge others who acted exactly how you probably would've. In fact, it's dishonorable to dismiss them as cowards the way you have been

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
BTW: Are you going to apologize to those who instinctively flee from imminent death for calling them "cowards"?

fleeing from imminent death is a natural reaction

fleeing from a gunman who is murdering others is cowardly

While you're at it, why don't you call those that allowed themselves to be murdered "cowards"?

Cowardly is a subjective word. If my wife chooses to protect our children and herself by fleeing the area instead of charging a gunman, the last thing that comes to my mind is that she was acting cowardly.

 

[ok doser]

While Ben Carson defends his controversial comments on last week’s mass shooting at an Oregon community college by saying he’d have charged at the gunman rather than “just stand there and let him shoot me,” at least one shooting victim says Carson’s apparent victim-blaming left him “fairly upset.”

18-year-old Mathew Downing was called the “lucky one” by the 26-year-old gunman who terrorized Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Oregon one week ago, killing nine people and injuring nine more.

“You, with the glasses,” gunman Chris Harper-Mercer reportedly said to Downing, “you’re the lucky one. If you give this envelope to police, you’ll live.”

Downing was then sent to the back of the classroom where he watched his classmates get executed.

"he watched his classmates get executed"


the actions of a hero or a coward?

 

[ok doser]

While you're at it, why don't you call those that allowed themselves to be murdered "cowards"?

without standing up to the threat and acting with courage** to confront it in an attempt to save others?

no question, they were cowards



** see dictionary definition of coward

 

[Greg Jennings]

First, I'm focused on the students mentioned in the wiki article, the ones who couldn't run, who were stuck in the classroom

They were in shock, plain and simple. Just as you likely would've been. Unless you've been in the line of fire before? Oh yeah, we've been through that, and you haven't.

Second, I'm focused on the "want of courage" part of the definition

Yes, arguments would be much more easily won if you could ignore the parts of dictionary definitions that defeated your point, wouldn't they?

But to answer your point, to run from a predator who is murdering your classmates is dishonorable

If you don't agree, consider this

Mintz did the opposite - he ran toward the danger to confront it and end it

Were his actions honorable?

Extremely honorable. Actually the word would be "heroic." That's because it's not what you're expected to do in that situation. He had, and I cannot stress this enough, military training. He was prepared for the situation in a way that none of the others were. Have you ever noticed that in situations like this either a police officer or military personnel are often the only ones who don't run away? For example the France train incident a few weeks back? That's because everyday people aren't trained to handle a situation like this. Most people are too stunned to move. The expression "deer in headlights" describes the feeling beautifully.

You seem to not understand that there is a gray area between honorable and dishonorable that is known as "SURVIVAL." It's not dishonorable to try and save your own life.

Again, unless you can tell me that you've been in this situation and acted heroically, which you by admission have not, you have no right to judge others who acted exactly how you probably would've. In fact, it's dishonorable to dismiss them as cowards the way you have been

 

[Greg Jennings]

without standing up to the threat and acting with courage** to confront it in an attempt to save others?

no question, they were cowards



** see dictionary definition of coward

So I guess you also would be a "coward" in that situation. Keyboard warriors are good at talking the talk without walking the walk

Your dictionary definition says cowards act with "ignoble fear." As we've discussed, there is nothing ignoble about fleeing for your life. You're a piece of work youngun.

Are the Syrian refugees fleeing for Europe cowards because they fear for their lives?

 

[ok doser]

They were in shock, plain and simple.

not too much in shock to prevent the one fellow from taking the envelope and going to the back of the classroom and sitting down

not too much in shock to prevent them from being able to cooperate with him as he slaughtered them like sheep

Just as you likely would've been. Unless you've been in the line of fire before? Oh yeah, we've been through that, and you haven't.

no, that's not true

i've been fired on

and my first reaction was to protect those with me

Yes, arguments would be much more easily won if you could ignore the parts of dictionary definitions that defeated your point, wouldn't they?

look again brainiac

notice the "or"?

Extremely honorable.

and the opposite of honorable?

cowardly

Actually the word would be "heroic." That's because it's not what you're expected to do in that situation. He had, and I cannot stress this enough, military training. He was prepared for the situation in a way that none of the others were. Have you ever noticed that in situations like this either a police officer or military personnel are often the only ones who don't run away?

i've already covered this ground

It's not dishonorable to try and save your own life.

it is when others are dying in front of you

Again, unless you can tell me that you've been in this situation and acted heroically, which you by admission have not, you have no right to judge others who acted exactly how you probably would've. In fact, it's dishonorable to dismiss them as cowards the way you have been

i have to have been in their situation in order to judge their cowardly actions as cowardly? :darwinsm:


good one! :thumb:

 

[ok doser]

So I guess you also would be a "coward" in that situation.

it's possible :idunno:

As we've discussed, there is nothing ignoble about fleeing for your life.

again, i'm only interested in those in the classroom with him

who allowed him to slaughter them like sheep

 

[Greg Jennings]

not too much in shock to prevent the one fellow from taking the envelope and going to the back of the classroom and sitting down

not too much in shock to prevent them from being able to cooperate with him as he slaughtered them like sheep

Clearly you haven't a clue what shock is

no, that's not true

i've been fired on

and my first reaction was to protect those with me

in what way do I act as though I have been in the situation myself?

Well. Someone is fibbing.

look again brainiac

notice the "or"?

Yep. And that "or" doesn't mean "discount the other thing in front of this." It means "another way to put it is.."

and the opposite of honorable?

cowardly

Since you like dictionaries so much:
hon·or·a·ble

1. bringing or worthy of honor.

antonyms: crooked, deplorable

FYI an antonym is dictionary for "opposite." So nice try but you're wrong. Again

i've already covered this ground

When?

it is when others are dying in front of you

Because you know what that's like. Oh wait....

i have to have been in their situation in order to judge their cowardly actions as cowardly? :darwinsm:


good one! :thumb:

Or in a similar one, yes. Pretty simple, really

 

[Greg Jennings]

it's possible :idunno:



again, i'm only interested in those in the classroom with him

who allowed him to slaughter them like sheep

Again, look up "shock" for me. Maybe then you'll get it

 

[ok doser]

Clearly you haven't a clue what shock is

i see it all the time in the ed

Well. Someone is fibbing.

nope

never been fired on in a locked room

Yep. And that "or" doesn't mean "discount the other thing in front of this." It means "another way to put it is.."

what it means is that to qualify, it has to meet at least one of the terms

and it does

the "want of courage" part

Since you like dictionaries so much:
hon·or·a·ble

1. bringing or worthy of honor.

antonyms: crooked, deplorable

FYI an antonym is dictionary for "opposite." So nice try but you're wrong. Again

so you consider the actions of those who watched their classmates being slaughtered like sheep worthy of honor?

When?

it's a link - look again

Because you know what that's like. Oh wait....

watching people die?

i do it all the time

Or in a similar one, yes. Pretty simple, really

how similar?

i've been fired on and my immediate instinctual reaction was to protect those who were with me

close enough?

 

[ok doser]

Again, look up "shock" for me. Maybe then you'll get it

i deal with it all the time

i've seen people in acute psychological shock dive into freezing water to rescue a child who is drowning

they do not show a want of courage


i've also seen people in acute psychological shock curl up and start sucking their thumbs

they do show a want of courage

 

[Greg Jennings]

i see it all the time in the ed



nope

never been fired on in a locked room



what it means is that to qualify, it has to meet at least one of the terms

and it does

the "want of courage" part



so you consider the actions of those who watched their classmates being slaughtered like sheep worthy of honor?



it's a link - look again



watching people die?

i do it all the time



how similar?

i've been fired on and my immediate instinctual reaction was to protect those who were with me

close enough?

Explain your situation in which you took fire and I'll tell you if it's close enough.

Again you demonstrate an inability to understand that there is a gray area between "honorable" and "dishonorable" that is neither. It's just instinct.

Repost the link for me please

 

[Greg Jennings]

i deal with it all the time

i've seen people in acute psychological shock dive into freezing water to rescue a child who is drowning

they do not show a want of courage


i've also seen people in acute psychological shock curl up and start sucking their thumbs

they do show a want of courage

And do you think that every person who experiences shock experiences it the same way? Or that every person is able to snap out of their "deer in headlights" phase? They're not always.

And comparing a going after a kid to being at gunpoint? What? That's silly. Every person would dive in after the kid. Few people would charge the gun man

 

[ok doser]

Explain your situation in which you took fire and I'll tell you if it's close enough.

bullets hit close to me

the shooter was firing at me

Again you demonstrate an inability to understand that there is a gray area between "honorable" and "dishonorable" that is neither. It's just instinct.

a hero's instinctual response is to confront the threat

a coward's instinctual response is self preservation

Repost the link for me please

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4479732&postcount=15

And do you think that every person who experiences shock experiences it the same way?

of course not

Or that every person is able to snap out of their "deer in headlights" phase? They're not always.

yes, i know

And comparing a going after a kid to being at gunpoint? What? That's silly. Every person would dive in after the kid.

off the ice into freezing water?

a lot of bystanders didn't

they milled around wringing their hands, worried about drowning themselves

Few people would charge the gun man

right, because we've been trained, as a society, to be cowardly sheep

 

[Greg Jennings]

bullets hit close to me

the shooter was firing at me

Gonna need more than that. Did he miss and move on? Did you attempt to take him down like an "honorable" person?

off the ice into freezing water?

a lot of bystanders didn't

they milled around wringing their hands, worried about drowning themselves

Could they swim? If they could, I imagine most people would at least try. If they couldn't, then jumping in the water isn't gonna do a whole lot of good, now is it?

right, because we've been trained, as a society, to be cowardly sheep

No. Because we have this thing called the "fight or flight response." It's not from society, it's from nature.