I am sure that there is more to learn. Speaking in English one might use the word covet when a better word could be used.
Objective Moral Values, God's Law, and the New Covenant.
- Thread starter Jacob
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I am sure that there is more to learn. Speaking in English one might use the word covet when a better word could be used.
Objective moral values stand on the baseline that an innocent person won't get harmed. It should be a subset of God's Law. However God's Law may have more than that. The baseline of God's Law is set forth on what God hates and what God likes. In the end, both angels and humans (or any other entities with freewill) need to respect and abide by in order to live with God in the eternal realm we call Heaven.
However an innocent person can get harmed can be different from different perspectives. In a human perspective, this refers to how a human's physical life being harmed by physical damage, mental damage, psychological damage and etc. That's how human morality is based off.
In God's perspective however, an innocent person is harmed if his soul is savable but not due to God didn't put effort, and that person winds up in an eternal hell.
God and humans don't have the same baseline of morality. Human morality is based off human bodies while God's morality is based off souls.
I am not sure what you mean. I do know that even a moral person may be harmed or punished if they do not believe truth from God, by God.
I believe that objective moral values are values that maintain no matter the circumstance and are unbiased. The law of Moses is a circumstantial type of moral system, where you are allowed to harm people if someone has done it to you. That is why it is considered the lower law. It may be considered moral enough from subjective views, but I think the fact that it is circumstantial means it is not objective. The new commandment is not a biased set of moral values and principles. Love one another is not subjective to who you wish to love. At least that is my view on it. I hope that's what you were asking about. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me? I love this question by the way.
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The Law of Moses involves equity in judgment but not vengeance or retribution. There has to be a court or judge for eye for an eye hand for a hand tooth for a tooth life for a life judgment. It may be a value rather than equal harm.
csuguy
Well-known member
Oh, a fun topic. Let us start with the basics. First off, what is morality? Morality is a doctrine/system of morals (dictionary.com) that serve to guide our actions towards some goal(s). There are, of course, many competing philosophies concerning morality, and they tend to conflict concerning core priorities, values, and beliefs.
To study morality objectively, however, we must consider what - objectively - should such a system's purpose be. Is there, in fact, any objective need to establish within society a moral philosophy to begin with? Or are we unnecessarily over complicating things?
Let us note that without laws (and a country's laws are effectively a form of morality), all manner of destructive deeds take place. Stealing, theft, murder, pollution, bribery, black-mail, racism, etc, etc. These things still can and do happen even with laws/moral system in place, but without anything to restrain people or to teach them differently - these things would go on uninhibited. Society would then necessarily break down into war and chaos.
Man is a social animal whose survival and well-being is dependent upon society. But in order to have a stable, healthy society where man can thrive, those within a society need to be able to trust one another and expect a certain level of respect. For instance: if you had stuff you valued, but couldn't trust leaving your house for fear everything would get stolen, would you want to remain in such a society? If you couldn't be confident that some passing stranger wasn't going to murder, rob, or rape you as you passed by - would you want to remain in such a society? Of course not. You no longer have a society at this point - but a bunch of individuals who are threatened by everyone they come across.
So it is objective to state that man requires morality - for it serves as the foundation of society. You cannot have a healthy society, the bedrock of mankind, without morality.
As for the contents of such an objective moral system, we've already laid down some guiding principles with the above observation. The purpose of an objective moral system is to bring people together, to create unity, harmony, trust, forgiveness, etc. amongst mankind so that we can thrive - individually and as a whole.
And, to tie this back to scripture, the guiding principle that optimally fulfills this role is none other than love.
Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
csuguy
Well-known member
I definitely agree with the idea that - taken at a purely law of the land, literal level - the Law of Moses (or any governments laws) are a lower law. Justice and Judgement are necessities to address sin and the damage caused by it. Without appropriate checks on people's selfishness and greed, we would destroy ourselves.
That said, ideally we don't require brute force enforcement of laws to make people behave like decent human beings. If fear of punishment is the only thing to keep people from breaking the law, then society isn't going to last very long. People need to understand and value the underlying principles behind the laws such that they want to uphold them because they are good. And when people break the law, we should approach them with mercy. If they are willing to repent and make amends, then we should forgive them.
James 2:12-13 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
That said, I disagree with the notion that if something is conditional that it isn't objective. Love is the abstract guiding principle, the truest essence of the Law. The specific literal commandments are the application of this principle to specific scenarios. That is why it is said that love fulfills all of the Law. Understanding both the abstract principles and learning how to apply them to specific scenarios are both important. And by studying how the law addresses specific scenarios, you can work back to the underlying principles. They go hand-in-hand.
Right.....so this demonstrates that murder is not actually objectively wrong. You have a Muslim extremist who believes that beheading a Christian is a good deed. To this person, murder is not only objectively immoral, it is a pleasing act in the eyes of God.
Certainly man is not an animal. But morals are about doing what is right. Or about right and wrong or where we are wrong. Do you know about the gospel of Jesus Christ?
csuguy
Well-known member
Yes - but what is "right," what is "wrong"? There must be some underlying principle(s) to a moral system/philosophy in order to evaluate whether an action is good or bad - and thus serve to guide our decisions. I argue that in an objective morality the fundamental underlying principle is love, just as in Christianity (ie, the morality put forth by Christ is objective).
Si seniora
God's Law, Jesus, is about love. Certainly this is objective.
I am a man, not a woman Senor.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
The law acknowledges, recognizes, and affirms an inalienable right to religious liberty, so then killing someone for their religion is objectively the killing of an innocent person, which when done with malice aforethought objectively renders such a killing murder, and not a justified killing, which is not murder.
Objective moral value is what being written in our hearts by God. The baseline is set on "innocent person being harmed in one way or another" being immoral. The morality baseline of God is different. God's morality baseline is set on "innocent person being jailed in hell" being immoral. That's how Jesus laid His life for His sheep.
Subjective moral value is about the layers of values added upon the original objective moral value written by God. These layers override some of the original values. These layers are from sources such as your culture, or your society or your parental education and etc. They are added upon the original godly value ever since when you are still in the womb of your mother.
The part written by God is embedded in your soul (or more precisely your spirit) such that you can still retrieve after being overridden.
Matthew 19:8 (NIV2011)
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
The things that we know to be true.