beloved57
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Does coming to Christ require Gods Drawing Power according to Jn 6:44 ? Yes or No
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
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Yes. No sinner can come to God for salvation without Jesus first giving the sinner light to do so. But Jesus gives all men light to come
John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
and Jesus draws all men to come to God for the forgiveness of sins and salvation from sin and eternal death.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
beloved57
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I said Gods Power !
Evasion.
Marke gave you scripture to support his claim.
Stamping your foot and repeating yourself won't do anything.
oatmeal
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Free will is certainly not enough. Without knowledge of the gospel, no one can willfully believe to receive the gift of salvation. Romans 10
beloved57
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Man is spiritually dead friend ! He needs first and foremost to be made alive before he can do anything of a spiritual manner ! The natural man, who is spiritually dead receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them 1 Cor 2:14
Sorry, but "spiritually dead" does not mean "morally incapable."
It means separated from God.
Death is the wages of sin, not sin the wages of death. One is separated from God the first time he sins, not before:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. - Romans 7:7-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:7-12&version=NKJV
When Adam sinned, he was cast out of the Garden of Eden, separated from his Creator. He died, spiritually, as God said:
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” - Genesis 2:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis2:16-17&version=NKJV
And sure enough:
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” . . . Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. - Genesis 3:6-11,22-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis3:6-11,22-24&version=NKJV
The Knowledge of Good and Evil is another name for the Law.
When man becomes aware of the Law, gains knowledge of good and evil, he sins, because like Adam, he is tempted by the law. He is then, like Adam, separated from God, and dies spiritually, as per Paul in Romans 7:9-11.
That's what death is.
When you say, "death means men are morally incapable of receiving the things of God," 1) you're going against what scripture says (which is that man "does not receive," not "cannot receive," and 2) you're denying what Paul wrote in Romans 7, and other passages where it's EXTREMELY clear that it is the responsibility of the individual (not God) to hear the gospel, so that they may confess and believe unto salvation (and yes, the gospel itself is part of God's drawing, meaning He made the first move).
oatmeal
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Yes, indeed, the natural man, the man without spirit is indeed spiritually dead, but even the natural man can seek the things of God by his own free will. The spiritual man can receive the things of the spirit of God because the spiritual man has the spirit of God in him, he is born again of incorruptible seed which is the spirit God gave to the natural man. However, no spiritual man except for John the Baptist had spirit on him from the womb. All natural men who received the spirit did not have the spirit until they received the spirit. They received it by doing Romans 10:9 which they can do only by exercising their free will to confess with their mouth the lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead.
Stamping your foot and demanding that you're right doesn't make it so, nor does it refute the rest of my post which you clearly intentionally ignored.
Address the rest of my post, please.
So what? Being separated from God (spiritually dead) doesn't mean God cannot reach out to him.
"Does not." Not "cannot."
He cannot understand the things of God, but that's different than being incapable of seeking God, which he CAN do if the Father draws him (John 6:44).
beloved57
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Man naturally is spiritually dead.
Respond to the rest of my post, please.
Simply repeating yourself is not sufficient.
beloved57
Well-known member
I dont see any need to respond to the rest of your post sir.
So you concede that "spiritually dead" does not mean "morally incapable," but rather that it simply means "separated from God"?
beloved57
Well-known member
A moral person can be spiritually dead. Being moral doesnt make one spiritually alive. Man is spiritually dead
Not what I'm talking about, and you know it, B57.
beloved57
Well-known member
You brought up mans moral ability, I never said a thing about mans moral abilities, men are and can be extremely moral. The thing about man by nature is he cant be spiritual, hes dead spiritually. Maybe you need to ponder the difference between the natural man being moral and being spiritually dead to God !
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