No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
The Bible does.

Very simple. Find the word "free-will" in the Bible. You just need a single clear instance of that exact word.
This nonsense amounts to a lie.

This isn't just poor thinking, this isn't just a fallacy of logic. It is an intentional, purposeful dodge of the plain reading of scripture.

The bible never uses the word gravity. Do you deny its existence as well?
So far, you have provided none. Bluster doesn't count.
There was no bluster! I simply and directly quoted three different passages of scripture which specifically and explicitly talk about OUR choosing between two alternatives and the consequences thereof.

Not only that but the passages are the words of God Himself talking with mankind and telling him outright that not only has He given us a choice but that it matters which choice that WE make. He doesn't say that He's predestined our "choice" (as if such a statement isn't a contradiction), He tells us to choose, which means that we can do precisely that which means we have a free will because having the ability to choose between alternatives is all that the term "free will" means.

Yep, that's definitely Greek philosophy.
Hogwash!

Words mean things Hiltrot. Just because the Greeks employed a concept doesn't mean they invented it. Nor does merely finding a concept in Greek philosophy render it false.
At least you gave a definition.

"The ability to exercise an act of making a choice or decision." Replaced volition with the common English.
Defining terms is a valuable thing to do in any debate but don't make the mistake of thinking that this is "my definition" or that definitions can validly be considered matters of opinion. Words mean things and if someone is going around changing, adjusting, twisting or otherwise altering the definition of commonly understood words, they're are being dishonest.

I don't think humans always have that ability and when they do have that ability, it is very limited.
Why should anyone care what you think?
Make an argument or keep your personal opinions in your pocket.

The person I was responding to did not say there was no difference between a "will" and "free-will". In fact most Calvinists I have read have specifically distinguished between the two. Martin Luther also distinguished between the two.
Most Calvinists do precisely what I just mentioned a moment ago. They intentionally alter the definition of any term they need to alter in order to conform the language to their doctrine. It was dishonest when Luther and Calvin did it and it remains dishonest today.

Playing with the definition of terms is how cults are formed. It has the effect of rendering any doctrinal claim unfalsifiable (i.e. irrational).

Words that means something different in Calvinism than they mean in ANY OTHER CONTEXT...

Will
Free will
choice
sovereign
knowledge
justice
righteous
love
faith
hope
evil
saved
death

and many many more.
In fact, very nearly every term you can think of that has any religious connotation to it has an alternative meaning within Calvinism.

Clete
 
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Hilltrot

Well-known member
This nonsense amounts to a lie.

This isn't just poor thinking, this isn't just a fallacy of logic. It is an intentional, purposeful dodge of the plain reading of scripture.

The bible never uses the word gravity. Do you deny its existence as well?
I can measure the effects of gravity. Acceleration on Earth is about 9/8 m/s^2, etc.

What are the units of measure for freewill?
There was no bluster!
Who says? You?

My bible is replete with free will from beginning to end!

I simply and directly quoted three different passages of scripture which specifically and explicitly talk about OUR choosing between two alternatives and the consequences thereof.

Not only that but the passages are the words of God Himself talking with mankind and telling him outright that not only has He given us a choice but that it matters which choice that WE make. He doesn't say that He's predestined our "choice" (as if such a statement isn't a contradiction), He tells us to choose, which means that we can do precisely that which means we have a free will because having the ability to choose between alternatives is all that the term "free will" means.
The first passage you gave is probably the best of the three for this.
Hogwash!

Words mean things Hiltrot.
And they mean different things to different people. This is why when people use words which carry a ton of baggage like freewill, I ask them how they define it.
Just because the Greeks employed a concept doesn't mean they invented it. Nor does merely finding a concept in Greek philosophy render it false.
And?
Defining terms is a valuable thing to do in any debate but don't make the mistake of thinking that this is "my definition" or that definitions can validly be considered matters of opinion.
This flies in the face of reality. Ever heard of simplified Chinese? Turkish? Bloody?
Words mean things and if someone is going around changing, adjusting, twisting or otherwise altering the definition of commonly understood words, they're are being dishonest.
That may be at times, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that languages aren't permanently changed because of it.
Why should anyone care what you think?
You cared enough to respond and take offense with my thoughts. So, a good question is why did you care enough to respond?
Make an argument or keep your personal opinions in your pocket.
I'll express my opinions whenever I want to, [removed] :D
Most Calvinists do precisely what I just mentioned a moment ago. They intentionally alter the definition of any term they need to alter in order to conform the language to their doctrine. It was dishonest when Luther and Calvin did it and it remains dishonest today.
And you continue these traditions of Luther and Calvin.
Playing with the definition of terms is how cults are formed. It has the effect of rendering any doctrinal claim unfalsifiable (i.e. irrational).
Not how cults are formed. Cults have to appeal to the base desires and weaknesses of others. Although words might get redefined or created, it's not the basis of any cult.

Redefining or even making up words does not make everything irrational. Equivocation is what makes things irrational.
Words that means something different in Calvinism than they mean in ANY OTHER CONTEXT...
Generally speaking, I believe equivocation is one of the problems with Calvinism. However, words do mean different things in different contexts. For example, duck can refer to a type of bird or the motion of an animal depending on the context.
In fact, very nearly every term you can think of that has any religious connotation to it has an alternative meaning within Calvinism.
Greek classical theism is quite a bit different than Biblical theism.
 
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oatmeal

Well-known member
Temp Banned
Why would you ?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is up to us to choose to believe, otherwise, God will let us perish
 

beloved57

Well-known member
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is up to us to choose to believe, otherwise, God will let us perish
I dont believe you understand that verse at all, you been bain washed
 

beloved57

Well-known member
A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, thats also called His having Mercy on a man.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, thats also called His having Mercy on a man.

Amen Brother ! Which Mercy results in God quickening them in time while they are being dead in sin.

Eph, 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

God's Mercy though, was never intended for all mankind without exception, but only for His Chosen Eph. 1:4; a remnant:

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I can measure the effects of gravity. Acceleration on Earth is about 9/8 m/s^2, etc.

What are the units of measure for freewill?
This is call moving the goal post. It's another dishonest tactic used by people who cannot defend their beliefs.

What you have done however is defeat your own argument by presenting what would otherwise be known as a argument from definition. The definition of gravity is (roughly) the acceleration of one object toward another and is expressed in mathematical terms as g = GM/r^2 and on Earth that yields your number of 9.81 m/s^2.

The equivalent argument in favor of biblical free will is that which I have already presented which is to quote passages which demonstrate the ability to choose between alternative possibilities.

The EXACT point being that the bible doesn't need to use the word in order to employ the concept. A fact that you already knew before you made that asinine comment about the words "free will" not being in scripture.
The first passage you gave is probably the best of the three for this.
Again, make an argument or keep your personal opinions to yourself.
And they mean different things to different people. This is why when people use words which carry a ton of baggage like freewill, I ask them how they define it.
No! That's just the exact point! They DO NOT mean different things to different people. THEY DO NOT!!!

The only reason to define terms is to ensure that the same concept is being discussed. If someone is talking about something other than the ability to choose between to possible alternatives then they are NOT talking about free will. I don't care what they call it.

"and" nothing! You brought up Greek philosophy, not me!
This flies in the face of reality. Ever heard of simplified Chinese? Turkish? Bloody?
Irrelevant. Words mean things Hilltrot! You can pretend like they don't but it won't make it so.

The term "free will" refers to the concept of choosing between possible alternatives. That's what it means. Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you and has something to sell you, like a particular brand of religion.
That may be at times, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that languages aren't permanently changed because of it.
Nonsense.

The fact that words mean things doesn't mean that language doesn't evolve or that a particular word can eventually come to mean something different but that's a very macro/evolutionary scale type change that occurs over extended periods of time and has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
You cared enough to respond and take offense with my thoughts. So, a good question is why did you care enough to respond?
I took no offense. I pointed out that your having merely stated your opinion doesn't make it so and then quoted three passages of scripture.
I'll express my opinions whenever I want to, you fascist bigot! :D
I don't give a Mexican Peso about your personal opinions and I will be reporting this post since you decided it necessary to call me a fascist bigot for no reason at all.
And you continue these traditions of Luther and Calvin.
Liar. Why believe doctrines that you can defend no better than this, you weak minded fool?
Not how cults are formed. Cults have to appeal to the base desires and weaknesses of others. Although words might get redefined or created, it's not the basis of any cult.
There isn't one, NOT ONE, single cult in existence that does not redefine common words in order to conform the language to their doctrine. No one but you would be stupid enough to think I was suggesting that it was the only tactic needed to form a cult. It's simply one of them.
Redefining or even making up words does not make everything irrational. Equivocation is what makes things irrational.
No. Redefining a term in order to win a debate is a fallacy of logic and is irrational by definition. The term for doing it is "equivocation". That is what that word means. Perhaps you should have looked it up before trying to use it in a sentence.
Generally speaking, I believe equivocation is one of the problems with Calvinism.
Who cares what you believe?
However, words do mean different things in different contexts.
The first correct thing you said so far.
For example, duck can refer to a type of bird or the motion of an animal depending on the context.
This is an altogether irrelevant point since there is only one context in which the term in question "free will" is ever used. This is how we can know for a fact that it is the Calvinist (Augustinian actually) who is doing the equivocation and not those of us who read the bible and take it to mean what it says.
Greek classical theism is quite a bit different than Biblical theism.
Thank you for that, Capt. Obvious!

Calvinism(and any other Augustinian sect) is, in effect, Christianized Greek philosophy. The more honest Calvinists and Catholics don't even deny this obvious fact. Some of them are proud of it. Augustine certainly was!

Clete
 
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Hilltrot

Well-known member
This is call moving the goal post. It's another dishonest tactic used by people who cannot defend their beliefs.
What goal post did I move?
What you have done however is defeat your own argument by presenting what would otherwise be known as a argument from definition. The definition of gravity is (roughly) the acceleration of one object two another and is expressed in mathematical terms as g = GM/r^2 and on Earth that yields your number of 9.81 m/s^2.
Not the definition of gravity. Also, not 9.81 m/s^2. 9.8 m/s^2 is more accuracte because of the dependence on latitude.
The equivalent argument in favor of biblical free will is that which I have already presented which is to quote passages which demonstrate the ability to choose between alternative possibilities.

The EXACT point being that the bible doesn't need to use the word in order to employ the concept. A fact that you already knew before you made that assinine comment about the words "free will" not being in scripture.
Since "freewill" is not in the Bible, one can't use the Bible as a reference to determine its meaning. In my opinion, using the language of the Bible whenever possible is better so that one does not accidentally create something which does not exist.
Again, make an argument or keep your personal opinions to yourself.
Why do you behave like a child? This is a forum where people express opinions and ideas which others may disagree. If you don't like others sharing opinions then ignore them. No one is forcing you to be here.
No! That's just the exact point! They DO NOT mean different things to different people. THEY DO NOT!!!
Repeating yourself and screaming and yelling does not make it true.
The only reason to define terms is to ensure that the same concept is being discussed. If someone is talking about something other than the ability to choose between to possible alternatives then they are NOT talking about free will. I don't care what they call it.
Which is why you likely talk past people more often than to them.
"and" nothing! You brought up Greek philosophy, not me!
Ok. There was no point to what you said.
Irrelevant. Words mean things Hilltrot! You can pretend like they don't but it won't make it so.
Not arguing that words don't mean things. Some words have different meanings to different people. If you don't adjust for this, you will often misunderstand others and they will misunderstand you.
The term "free will" refers to the concept of choosing between possible alternatives. That's what it means. Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you and has something to sell you, like a particular brand of religion.
This is your definition of "free will" (now with a space . . .) Others have a different definition. I was asking someone else what their definition was so that I could communicate with them. You might try communicating with people who don't agree with you sometime. Try to build bridges instead of throwing grenades.
Nonsense.

The fact that words mean things doesn't mean that language doesn't evolve or that a particular word can eventually come to mean something different but that's a very macro/evolutionary scale type change that occurs over extended periods of time and has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
No. Changes happen very quickly in language. There are regional differences as well. And then there are words which carry a lot of baggage. People who use this words have a certain philosophy or world view which guides their meaning of the word. I try to avoid using such words for this reason. And when I talk to someone else who insists on using such words, I ask them to define them.
I don't give a Mexican Peso about your personal opinions and I will be reporting this post since you decided it necessary to call me a fascist bigot for no reason at all.
fascist - having a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.

Hmm . . . demanding that people don't give their opinions . . .

bigot - a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

Definitely intolerantly devoted to your own opinion.

Yeah . . . the wording was strong, but that is why I put the happy face there so that you would hopefully realize how ridiculous you were being. (And unfortunately, still are.)
Liar. Why believe doctrines that you can defend no better than this, you weak minded fool?
I'll explain one more time. You are choosing your definition to fit your doctrine in the same way Luther and Calvin choose their definition.
There isn't one, NOT ONE, single cult in existence that does not redefine common words in order to conform the language to their doctrine. No one but you would be stupid enough to think I was suggesting that it was the only tactic needed to form a cult. It's simply one of them.
You said
Playing with the definition of terms is how cults are formed.
Now you moved the goal post to
There isn't one, NOT ONE, single cult in existence that does not redefine common words in order to conform the language to their doctrine.
What did you say about people moving goal posts? Matthew 7:1?

I am not familiar with every single cult in existence, but I'm pretty sure that most common words like "motorcycle", "chair", "rain", and "horse" are not redefined. I wouldn't be suprised if many cults do redefine some words and have an internal jargon.
No. Redefining a term in order to win a debate is a fallacy of logic and is irrational by definition. The term for doing it is "equivocation". That is what that word means. Perhaps you should have looked it up before trying to use it in a sentence.
equivocation - deliberate evasiveness in wording

The word does not mean redefining terms. Redefining a term only wins arguments in people's imagination.
Who cares what you believe?
You obviously do. You have written a couple of pages to me already showing that you obviously care.
This is an altogether irrelevant point since there is only one context in which the term in question "free will" is ever used. This is how we can know for a fact that it is the Calvinist (Augustinian actually) who is doing the equivocation and not those of us who read the bible and take it to mean what it says.
I once had a lawyer offer to provide me a free will.
Thank you for that, Capt. Obvious!
You're welcome!
Calvinism(and any other Augustinian sect) is, in effect, Christianized Greek philosophy. The more honest Calvinists and Catholics don't even deny this obvious fact. Some of them are proud of it. Augustine certainly was!
Augustine borrows heavily from Manichaeism as well.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, hes in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, hes in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Exactly Brother, it is the Father's Will, by His Power, to give His Chosen Ones Eph. 1:4; His Own, New Spiritual Life, Equipping them with the Spiritual Ability to Come to Christ ; Causing them to be Willing in the day of His Power Ps. 1:10:3. So just as you have shown Brother, it's only then shall any be given the ability to come to Christ / believe in Him, which is a Spiritual action that pleases God.

Rom. 8:7-9

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Very simple. Find the word "free-will" in the Bible. You just need a single clear instance of that exact word.

So far, you have provided none. Bluster doesn't count.
Let's put you to the test!
"Very simple" you said.
"You just need a single clear instance of that exact word" you said...

Exodus 35:29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the Lord, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the Lord, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done.​
Leviticus 1:3 ‘If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the Lord.​
Leviticus 19:5 ‘And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the Lord, you shall offer it of your own free will.​
Leviticus 22:19 you shall offer of your own free will a male without blemish from the cattle, from the sheep, or from the goats.​
Leviticus 22:29 And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Lord, offer it of your own free will.​
Ezra 3:5 Afterwards they offered the regular burnt offering, and those for New Moons and for all the appointed feasts of the Lord that were consecrated, and those of everyone who willingly offered a freewill offering to the Lord.​
Psalm 54:6 I will freely sacrifice to You; I will praise Your name, O Lord, for it is good.​


Will Hiltrot repent in the face of God's word?

No! He absolutely will not. Hide and watch and learn what being a fool looks like.
 
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beloved57

Well-known member
The only ones who will come to Christ/believe in Him for all Salvation will be His Sheep Jn 10:26. And its not by their own freewill nor anything native or natural within them, but by the Father having given them to the Son Jn 6:37,65 which speaks to Election. The Father by drawing them to Christ, actually, by His Spirit of Grace, causes them to come or believe in Christ, hence all credit, praise, honor must go to God for a person believing in Jesus Christ for Salvation. See Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
 

Right Divider

Body part
The only ones who will come to Christ/believe in Him for all Salvation will be His Sheep Jn 10:26. And its not by their own freewill nor anything native or natural within them, but by the Father having given them to the Son Jn 6:37,65 which speaks to Election. The Father by drawing them to Christ, actually, by His Spirit of Grace, causes them to come or believe in Christ, hence all credit, praise, honor must go to God for a person believing in Jesus Christ for Salvation. See Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
The ONLY ones that God calls HIS SHEEP are ISRAEL (the people of the nation and not your fantasy version).
Joh 10:22-26 KJV And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. (23) And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. (24) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. (25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jesus was speaking specifically and only to the Jews in that passage. In the case of this passage, only believing Jews are "His sheep".
Eze 34:30-31 KJV Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. (31) And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
There must be a Divine Intervention before can believe or come to Christ, a giving of a new mind and heart. Mans heart and mind by nature is enmity against God and not subject to God, and cant be ! Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Also while unregenerate, by nature we are children of wrath as others, and the mind fulfills the lust of the flesh Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature[physical origin] the children of wrath, even as others.

Folks this is how we are by natural physical birth, our wills belong to the flesh. Nothing short of a New Nature, New beginning is needed, and thats the Divine Intervention.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The ONLY ones that God calls HIS SHEEP are ISRAEL (the people of the nation and not your fantasy version).

Jesus was speaking specifically and only to the Jews in that passage. In the case of this passage, only believing Jews are "His sheep".
The Sheep are the only ones Jesus calls, His Israel, the Church, they are the Only ones He died for as well. What many didn't know, because it was a Mystery, is that both jews and gentiles were of Israel, Spiritual Israel that is.
 
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