No Longer A Christian

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Zakath

:think:

Now that would be a start... most living folks I've ever heard of actually have one. It's usually considered a definite convincing evidence of their existence.

Okay. Here I am, evidence of the living Christ. Jesus is in me, alive and well.

Originally posted by Zakath

Um, what

You want evidence of things that are not seen, like radio waves. Like an unseen radio wave is heard through a receiver, the living Christ is witnessed in the believer.

Faith is the confidence in the evidence of things which are not seen. I think that is where you and I part ways.

Originally posted by Zakath

Again, what does this have to do with your alleged evidence to prove that Jesus of Nazareth is currently alive... :doh: :doh:

See above.

Originally posted by Zakath

Translation:
elohiym has no convincing evidence to present, so he'll resort to ridicule and insults and, failing that, he'll abandon the conversation.

I have presented several convincing bits of evidence regarding the Exodus, and you can read about them in my posts to Granite. If you have no confidence in that evidence, that is your problem.

Also, I didn't know we were having a conversation. I thought we were just talkin' trash in passing, like on a football field during a game. I have limited time, and you are absolutely at the very bottom of my list of people I wish to communicate with.

Does it offend you that I feel you are a devoted God-hater? Why should it offend you? Do you love God?:shocked:

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by elohiym

Okay. Here I am, evidence of the living Christ. Jesus is in me, alive and well.
You want evidence of things that are not seen, like radio waves. Like an unseen radio wave is heard through a receiver, the living Christ is witnessed in the believer.

Faith is the confidence in the evidence of things which are not seen. I think that is where you and I part ways.See above.I have presented several convincing bits of evidence regarding the Exodus, and you can read about them in my posts to Granite. If you have no confidence in that evidence, that is your problem.

Also, I didn't know we were having a conversation. I thought we were just talkin' trash in passing, like on a football field during a game. I have limited time, and you are absolutely at the very bottom of my list of people I wish to communicate with.

Does it offend you that I feel you are a devoted God-hater? Why should it offend you? Do you love God?:shocked:

:up: :up: :up:

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by elohiym
You want evidence of things that are not seen, like radio waves. Like an unseen radio wave is heard through a receiver, the living Christ is witnessed in the believer.

Maybe Zakath will convert when they invent a receiver that picks up God waves.

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by elohiym

Okay. Here I am, evidence of the living Christ. Jesus is in me, alive and well.

Does it offend you that I feel you are a devoted God-hater? Why should it offend you? Do you love God?:shocked:

It offends me that you would ask him to see evidence of Christ in YOU and then be angry at him for not seeing it.

I mean, NOBODY HAS THAT MUCH FAITH.

 

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Dave Miller
For the most part, God works through people and circumstance to reveal His Grace to the faithful, within the confines of truth, logic, and the laws of physics.

Interesting how that works out, that only The Faithfulâ„¢ can see the Hand of Godâ„¢ in phenomena that the unwashed masses attribute to the laws of physics...

 

[Gerald]

Originally posted by elohiym
I have limited time, and you [Zakath] are absolutely at the very bottom of my list of people I wish to communicate with.

Then why haven't you put him on Ignore? Is there some hope that you're clinging to?

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Gerald

Interesting how that works out, that only The Faithfulâ„¢ can see the Hand of Godâ„¢ in phenomena that the unwashed masses attribute to the laws of physics...

Not TOO interesting, actually.

The Faithfulâ„¢ have hearts while the The Unwashwed Massesâ„¢ do not.

We sing: Open the eyes of my heart, Lord!

What do you sing?

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by On Fire

Not TOO interesting, actually.

The Faithfulâ„¢ have hearts while the The Unwashwed Massesâ„¢ do not.

We sing: Open the eyes of my heart, Lord!

What do you sing?

*using surfer voice now* Dude! You guys have got this anatomy stuff all wrong.

*using Valley Girl voice now* I mean, like if you had eyes in your heart, I mean, that would be totally gross!

Maybe what YOU should be singing is something like: "the leg bone's connected to the foot bone . . . "

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by wickwoman

*using surfer voice now* Dude! You guys have got this anatomy stuff all wrong.

*using Valley Girl voice now* I mean, like if you had eyes in your heart, I mean, that would be totally gross!

Maybe what YOU should be singing is something like: "the leg bone's connected to the foot bone . . . "

:freak:

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

For the most part, God works through people and circumstance
to reveal His Grace to the faithful, within the confines of truth,
logic, and the laws of physics.

In that he's not discernably different from human institutions, then.

It's not the "most part" in your statement that intrigues me. Just the part where he doesn't confine himself to the laws of physics. Now that might be convincing evidence... :think:

Humanity defines God based on our own feeble experience
and expectations. Tribal leader, conquering despot, benevolent
king, judge. If this republic thing holds on, at some point
someone will be saying "president God," I suspect. Even
the metaphysical view of God as "the sum of all things"
reflects a democratic idealism.

Are you expecting the "republic thing" to disappear any time soon? It's been around almost 3,000 years (that we know of)...

Who God really is transcends our puny political structures.

Nice tautological statement to describe an entity whose followers claim that transcendence is one of his major attributes.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally posted by Zakath

In that he's not discernably different from human institutions, then.

It's not the "most part" in your statement that intrigues me. Just the part where he doesn't confine himself to the laws of physics. Now that might be convincing evidence... :think:

I'm not going to try and convince you that God performs
supernatural miracles as well. That's something that
can only be accepted through the eyes of faith. I made
the caveat for self consistancy with my own beliefs. But,
the scientific part of me (I'm an engineer) keeps one
eyebrow raised to the possibility that the supernatural may
actually be not yet understood "natural" phenomena..

Are you expecting the "republic thing" to disappear any time soon? It's been around almost 3,000 years (that we know of)...

Only until someone canonizes "president God."

Nice tautological statement to describe an entity whose followers claim that transcendence is one of his major attributes.

I almost thanked you, but I decided to look up the meaning
of tautology first. Thankyou for expanding my vocabulary,
anyway. (A tautological thankyou, at best, I know.)

djm

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by elohiym

Okay. Here I am, evidence of the living Christ. Jesus is in me, alive and well.

How so? What can you do to demonstrate that you're not just another religious crackpot or delusional neurotic or psychotic making grandiose claims of communion with otherworldly beings?

:think:

You want evidence of things that are not seen, like radio waves. Like an unseen radio wave is heard through a receiver, the living Christ is witnessed in the believer.

See my previous request for demonstration...

Faith is the confidence in the evidence of things which are not seen.

Ahh, so now your qualified to re-translate the New Testament...

Somehow, I don't think so. :think:

I think that is where you and I part ways.

No, we parted ways, back when you declared yourself a believer in something no one can see, hear, touch, taste or otherwise experience except through your claims of alleged "truth".

I have presented several convincing bits of evidence regarding the Exodus, and you can read about them in my posts to Granite. If you have no confidence in that evidence, that is your problem.

Most of the evidences you refer to either do not support your point (such as the depth of the Red Sea), or are provided by people who have gravely misunderstood geology and have little concrete evidence to back up their claims. There is an interesting refutation of Cornuke's alleged claims about the mountain he describes as Mt. Sinai over on http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/dec03.html.

To sum up the points:

Essentially, direct oservations by both "secular" and religious geologists of the Jabal al Lawz region readily refute argument by Cornuke and Halbrook (2000) that the top of Jabal al Lawz has been either charred or recently melted. If the rocks on the summit of Jabal al Lawz look "melted" it is because they consist of metamorphosed lava and other extrusive igneous rocks called "greenstone", formed from the cooling of once molten rocks billions of years before the Israelites even existed. This "remarkable find" is actually a remarkable blunder on the part of people, who obviously didn't understand anything about the geology of the area that they were studying. There is nothing about the geology of Jabal al Lawz that indicates it was either melted or charred by any event reported to have occurred by the Bible.

If you're really interested in scientific discussion of the area, see...

• Bramkamp, R. A., Brown, G. F., Holm, D. A., and Layne, N. M., Jr., 1963, Geologic Map of the Wadi As Sirhan Quadrangle Kingdom of Suadi Arabia. U.S. Geological Survey Miscellaneous Geologic Investigations Map I-200A. U.S. Geological Survey, Reston, Virginia. Scale: 1:250,000.
  
• Shelton, John S., 1966, Geology Illustrated. Freeman Press. San Francisco, California.
  
• Trent, Virgil A., and Johnson, Robert F., 1967, Geologic map of the Jabal al Lawz Quadrangle, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia; U.S. Geol. Survey, Mineral Investigation Map MI-13, 1:100,000.

Their ignorance and your gullibility are not my problem, they're yours.

Also, I didn't know we were having a conversation. I thought we were just talkin' trash in passing...

Well, then perhaps you'd better go back to your made-for-TV "biblical archeology" specials and stop wasting all of our time... :thumb:

Does it offend you that I feel you are a devoted God-hater?

Based on the other things you've posted, your lack of intelligence about atheists in general, and me in particular, isn't any more offensive than the maunderings of a two year old.

I do not "hate God" any more than I "hate" Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny when I claim that they do not exist. Hating something that does not exist is neither rational, or a good way to spend one's energy.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Maybe Zakath will convert when they invent a receiver that picks up God waves.

Well perhaps someday someone will do so. It's got to beat the confusing cacophany of chaos coming out of the mouths (and keyboards) of all those millions of people claiming that they hear him while contradicting each other.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

I'm not going to try and convince you that God performs
supernatural miracles as well.

Why the distinction, Dave? If it was "natural" an occurence wouldn't be a miracle then, would it? :think:

That's something that can only be accepted through the eyes of faith. I made the caveat for self consistancy with my own beliefs. But, the scientific part of me (I'm an engineer) keeps one
eyebrow raised to the possibility that the supernatural may actually be not yet understood "natural" phenomena..[/qoute]I think that point was addressed well by one of my fellow atheists, Arthur Clarke, when he wrote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

As we understand the universe, we find less and less "magic" or "supernatural" and more and more is explainable by natural phenomena.

Only until someone canonizes "president God."

I shudder to think, even though you probably meant that tongue-in-cheek.

If the voters give GW another four years, we just might see something along those lines...

:shocked:

I almost thanked you, but I decided to look up the meaning of tautology first.

:thumb:

Thankyou for expanding my vocabulary,
anyway. (A tautological thankyou, at best, I know.)

You're welcome.

Beware of atheists on a religious forum bearing compliments. :chuckle:

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Zakath
If the voters give GW another four years, we just might see something along those lines...

:shocked:

YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW!

*shudder*:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Originally posted by Zakath

Why the distinction, Dave? If it was "natural" an occurence wouldn't be a miracle then, would it? :think:

Sure it would. The fact that the laws of physics exist at all
is a miracle. We're just discovering what God created from
the beginning.

djm

 

[Gerald]

Originally posted by On Fire
What do you sing?

I never sing. Ever.

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Gerald

Then why haven't you put him on Ignore?

I don't put anyone on ignore. That's my policy.

Zakath may say something intelligent one day.

Originally posted by Gerald

Is there some hope that you're clinging to?

If Zakath becomes a believer, I will rejoice. God's word is true, and with God it is possible, still.

If Zakath is one day ashes under my feet, I will rejoice. God's word is true, and God promised the ungodly and sinners will be consumed with eternal fire, and that they would be ashes under my feet.

Jesus was sent so that none should perish, but our Lord clearly taught many will perish.

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by wickwoman

It offends me that you would ask him to see evidence of Christ in YOU and then be angry at him for not seeing it.

First, I am not asking him to see the evidence; I am telling him here is the evidence. It is HIS CHOICE to believe that evidence or not.

Second, I am not angry at him for anything. Although, I do consider him an enemy of God, and thus, an enemy to me. As an enemy, on an internet forum, I have no way of showing him my love for him except through my posts. My posts reflect that love, even if YOU can't see it.

Originally posted by Gerald

I mean, NOBODY HAS THAT MUCH FAITH.

Speak for yourself on that one, please.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by wickwoman

YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW!

*shudder*:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

Everytime I listen to the religious zealots, of whatever religion, trying to politicize their religious views I also shudder remembering how many times my favorite "prophet", Robert Heinlein, has (forty or more years before the fact) correctly described the disintegration of American society.

If one of Heinlein's alternate timelines where we're ruled by a religious despotism comes to pass here, we're all in for a world of trouble. :shocked: