No Death Penalty. What Is Your Position?

[ok doser]

Iran:

After 2002, allegedly eight men were stoned to death[29] and one woman hanged.[30] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran#Adultery

and marriage rates remained unchanged

 

[Stripe]

"If showing that everything Brain says is stupid were so easy, everyone would do it."

 

[Arthur Brain]

You need to back off for a minute and calm down. Your emotions are getting in the way of discussion.

No one here is condoning such behavior.

The argument was put forth by Wiz that having a law that makes adultery a capital crime would deter people from marrying and that the marriage rate would drop to near zero.

Ok doser responded by providing two countries that execute people for adultery (even if such law is misused) which show no deterrent effect towards people marrying, thereby falsifying Wiz's claim.

Do you perhaps have any examples of countries where the marriage rate is nearly zero due to it making adultery a capital crime?

Then you need to take a step back yourself and see the complete illogic of doser's claim. It could only be falsified by using examples of countries that implement the DP for adultery and where men and women have equal rights as in the West. You ain't gonna find any such. Using places like Somalia undermine that argument to the utmost. Women don't have rights, nor do young girls. They are second class citizens with no recourse to legal help because society is so religiously patriarchal and extreme. They have little to no voice so how on earth would marriage rates be affected in such places like that? Do you think that women have a say in being married?

So God was absolutely wrong for requiring the death penalty for adulterers and adulteresses?

Because that's exactly what you just said.

Some of us don't live in the OT JR. There's plenty of stuff that applied then that needn't be applied now, not all but plenty. Most Christians don't believe in applying religious law to the whole of society and most don't believe that we should still drag people out for being unfaithful and bludgeoning them to death with rocks. For what should be obvious reasons.

If stoning people to death for adultery is absolutely wrong (which means it doesn't matter what the circumstances are or when or where it is done, then God should not have given Israel the law which said to do so, because He would have been commanding them to do evil.

See above.

Well, no, it isn't.

It's caused by people who REJECT God, not by people who love Him.

Oh please, if it wasn't for religious extremism this young girl would still be alive and you're just as extreme in the laws that you advocate for society, you just think you're righteous in doing so.

 

[drbrumley]

...had no apparent effect on marriage rates

Do you condemn Iran?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Do you condemn Iran?

If someone does something wicked, and then separately does something good, do you condemn them for both actions? or just for the wickedness they did?

 

[Stripe]

Do you condemn Iran?

Even a broken clock is right once a day.

 

[ok doser]

Do you condemn Iran?

I loathe Iran

But that's not pertinent to the discussion

 

[Arthur Brain]

"If showing that everything Brain says is stupid were so easy, everyone would do it."

Well, you're a highly educated and intelligent man so why don't you take a shot?

 

[ok doser]

Even a broken clock is right once a day.

At least

 

[drbrumley]

If someone does something wicked, and then separately does something good, do you condemn them for both actions? or just for the wickedness they did?

You need to check yourself at the door bro. A 13 year old cannot even know what the word means....she's 13. And that is besides the point, her family reported a RAPE!!!! Then the head choppers decided to throw her under a pile of rocks. And you support that?

 

[drbrumley]

Even a broken clock is right once a day.

What crime did she commit? She was RAPED!!!!!!

 

[JudgeRightly]

Then you need to take a step back yourself and see the complete illogic of doser's claim.

This is why I asked you to take a step back.

Because his claim is not illogical whatsoever, as it pertains to the discussion at hand.

It could only be falsified by using examples of countries that implement the DP for adultery and where men and women have equal rights as in the West.

How is the highlighted portion relevant to this discussion at all?

You ain't gonna find any such. Using places like Somalia undermine that argument to the utmost. Women don't have rights, nor do young girls. They are second class citizens with no recourse to legal help

How does ANY of that affect whether the death penalty for adultery is right or wrong?

because society is so religiously patriarchal and extreme.

Israel was patriarchal, as were most nations in ancient times.

How is that a negative thing?

They have little to no voice so how on earth would marriage rates be affected in such places like that? Do you think that women have a say in being married?

Sorry, but the argument was that marriage rates would plummet, not that women wouldn't want to get married.

The argument Wiz made implies that both women AND MEN would be deterred from marrying, thus causing the marriage rate to drop to near zero.

Which doesn't happen, so therefore your complaint has no teeth.

Some of us don't live in the OT JR. There's plenty of stuff that applied then that needn't be applied now, not all but plenty.

But according to something you said earlier (and perhaps you've since amended your position), most of what is said in the Bible doesn't apply today.

Most Christians

... have no idea what the Bible says about such things to begin with. Your argument is irrelevant anyways because it's an appeal to the majority to begin with, which makes it moot.

don't believe in applying religious law to the whole of society and most don't believe that we should still drag people out for being unfaithful and bludgeoning them to death with rocks. For what should be obvious reasons.

See above.

Oh please, if it wasn't for religious extremism

Sorry, but their extremism as part of their religion is a result of their rejecting God.

If you're going to cure a disease, you don't address the symptoms, you address the root cause.

this young girl would still be alive and you're just as extreme in the laws that you advocate for society, you just think you're righteous in doing so.

Making the argument personal again?

Sorry, but just because a country abuses righteous laws does not make those laws wicked.

You never did answer me.

Was God wrong for requiring the death penalty for adultery? If not, then your claim, "[executing] people for [adultery] is absolutely wrong" is incorrect, and you should retract it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You need to check yourself at the door bro. A 13 year old cannot even know what the word means....she's 13. And that is besides the point, her family reported a RAPE!!!! Then the head choppers decided to throw her under a pile of rocks. And you support that?

Where did I say such?

You're confusing a countries laws with their abuse of the laws.

Abusing a righteous law so that one can do evil does not make the righteous law wicked.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What crime did she commit? She was RAPED!!!!!!

Explain how abusing a good law (that says to execute those guilty of adultery) make that law wicked.

 

[ok doser]

Artie pretends that the death penalty for adultery in Iran and Somalia is only enforced against woman, ignoring the fact that men are also executed for adultery

With no effect on marriage rates

 

[drbrumley]

Explain how abusing a good law (that says to execute those guilty of adultery) make that law wicked.

I didn't say that. God was perfectly just in having Moses codify it. But it sure looked like you were happy with that particular outcome with the 13 YO.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I didn't say that. God was perfectly just in having Moses codify it. But it sure looked like you were happy with that particular outcome with the 13 YO.

You need to read more carefully then.

 

[drbrumley]

You need to read more carefully then.

You too.

 

[Arthur Brain]

This is why I asked you to take a step back.

Because his claim is not illogical whatsoever, as it pertains to the discussion at hand.

It is entirely illogical to use countries that treat women that have little to zero rights as to what we have in the West, the case in Somalia underlines that. A thirteen year old child that was raped was sentenced to death for adultery. Now, how many marriages do you suppose that women have a say in in countries that enforce laws whereby they have practically zero say in anything?

How is the highlighted portion relevant to this discussion at all?

Seriously, it has to be explained? If laws were implemented whereby the likes of the above could be enforced then both men and women would for the most part just shack up and not take the risk of a marriage falling apart. Why on earth would they?

How does ANY of that affect whether the death penalty for adultery is right or wrong?

How much other stuff from the OT should be applied today JR? Should we still have stonings in place for rebellious teenagers who don't respect their parents enough?

Israel was patriarchal, as were most nations in ancient times.

How is that a negative thing?

Yeah, the key thing here being "ancient times". It's most definitely a negative thing when you have societies that still treat their women like trash, like Somalia.

lain:

Sorry, but the argument was that marriage rates would plummet, not that women wouldn't want to get married.

The argument Wiz made implies that both women AND MEN would be deterred from marrying, thus causing the marriage rate to drop to near zero.

Why would either party want to risk marriage under your type of society? Why risk it? You can make a commitment to someone without a marriage certificate.

Which doesn't happen, so therefore your complaint has no teeth.

Well of course it doesn't happen without the likes of the laws that you'd have over everybody.

:AMR:

But according to something you said earlier (and perhaps you've since amended your position), most of what is said in the Bible doesn't apply today.

I was clear enough on the point.

... have no idea what the Bible says about such things to begin with. Your argument is irrelevant anyways because it's an appeal to the majority to begin with, which makes it moot.

Pfft, according to you they might not which can be disregarded as arrogance without substance in turn. You certainly aren't the arbiter as to what people have an idea about.

Sorry, but their extremism as part of their religion is a result of their rejecting God.

Not to them it isn't. They're just as fanatical about their belief as you are yours.

If you're going to cure a disease, you don't address the symptoms, you address the root cause.

Sure, do away with religious extremism of any bent and this world would be a lot better place for it. It ain't gonna happen unfortunately but at least in the West there's safeguards against it.

Making the argument personal again?

Sorry, but just because a country abuses righteous laws does not make those laws wicked.

You never did answer me.

Was God wrong for requiring the death penalty for adultery? If not, then your claim, "[executing] people for [adultery] is absolutely wrong" is incorrect, and you should retract it.

Only if you insist in taking it as such. What you advocate would be condemned as extremism in both Christian circles as well as secular. Stoning people to death in the present for adultery is barbaric, plain and simple.

 

[bibleverse2]

You have an intellectual understanding of scripture and theology, but what you have is outward and possessed by many. You have no inward work, understanding or love of the truth.

Note that what has been presented is the hard truth of YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4).