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[On Fire]

Rather morbid, isn't I? I don't remember asking anyone to shed blood for me, yet according to Christianity, I am obligated to accept this "gift" or suffer in a flaming pit! Isn't that a bit like spirtual extortion?

Take it or leave it. It's called free will.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Do not take the last paragraph as condemnation, as such (though I appreciate your willingness to look inward for part of the problem, as it speaks well of you.) When I say "the problem lies with people looking on," that is, in fact, speaking to the inherent flaws of men, and is my admission that there is a problem with those (like Robertson) who do portray us badly.

The next step, though, is for us to form a dialogue on this based strictly on the merits of our belief systems.[/QUOTE]

Right, and complacency plays a large part, as well.
There is no way for me to say what I am about to say without sounding arrogant, although I assure that I am not; I think that religion, and yes even Christianity is a good thing for many people because many people still need to be led. Some people have said that if it wasn't fpr "xyz" belief system, then they would be addicted to drugs, sleeping around, watching HBO and listening to Marilyn Manson; to those I say, "PLEASE attend church, I'll even drive you!" If organized religion/Christianity makes a person more at peace, less capable (or willing) to harm others, then by all meas, go for it.

The next step, though, is for us to form a dialogue on this based strictly on the merits of our belief systems.

What can I do to help?

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Take it or leave it. It's called free will.

I did leave it. I just wondered (to satisfy my own morbid curiosity) why the dog and pony show was even necessary in the first place?
Why not, "Thou sins are removed, whether you believe or not!"? Would people love Jesus any less or more? That way, the acceptance of Jesus would not in any way be conditional. The way it is now (at least by my perspective) is that you cannot believe until you are called, and imparted with the gift to believe in the first place. Then you had better believe these other things as well, or there still might be hell to pay.

 

[Aimiel]

Why though? That's the $60,000,000 question, isn't it?
Why did God have to sacrifice Himself to Himself to change a rule that He made? Additionally, we now have to follow the narrow path all the way to the end or we STILL suffer for eternity?

Jesus offers us the straight and narrow path. As to getting God to answer (to your personal satisfaction) understanding of His Plan and It's Design, you'll have to ask Him. I've gotten answers to the 'tough' questions I was curious about, that satisfy me, and which I understand, spiritually. Putting them in temporal language isn't possible. I suggest you pose them to Him, and expect an answer, otherwise you'll never know.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Jesus offers us the straight and narrow path. As to getting God to answer (to your personal satisfaction) understanding of His Plan and It's Design, you'll have to ask Him. I've gotten answers to the 'tough' questions I was curious about, that satisfy me, and which I understand, spiritually. Putting them in temporal language isn't possible. I suggest you pose them to Him, and expect an answer, otherwise you'll never know.

Aimiel, I will pose those questions to God tonight, while I meditate. Seriously. I am open minded enough to try again (and again and again).
I know what you mean though; I have learned things from (the Universe, God, My Inner Self, whatever He/She/It is), and it came all at once. It was like looking at a picture but seeing every detail perfectly.

 

[Lovejoy]

Aimiel, I will pose those questions to God tonight, while I meditate. Seriously. I am open minded enough to try again (and again and again).
I know what you mean though; I have learned things from (the Universe, God, My Inner Self, whatever He/She/It is), and it came all at once. It was like looking at a picture but seeing every detail perfectly.

(Proverbs 27:7 NET) The one whose appetite is satisfied loathes honey, but to the hungry mouth every bitter thing is sweet.

Go to prayer hungry.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

(Proverbs 27:7 NET) The one whose appetite is satisfied loathes honey, but to the hungry mouth every bitter thing is sweet.

Go to prayer hungry.

I will do my best; incidentally, I love honey, full or hungry. Especially when drizzled on browned chicken breasts and covered with crushed cashews, skillet fried over medium heat for 5-10 minutes.

 

[Lovejoy]

I will do my best; incidentally, I love honey, full or hungry. Especially when drizzled on browned chicken breasts and covered with crushed cashews, skillet fried over medium heat for 5-10 minutes.

You will have to head over to the "recipe" thread!

 

[Aimiel]

I know what you mean though; I have learned things from (the Universe, God, My Inner Self, whatever He/She/It is), and it came all at once. It was like looking at a picture but seeing every detail perfectly.

Christians have a unique advantage over non-Christians in this regard. Our spirit is in perfect agreement with The Spirit of The Lord. The problem many of them have, though, lies in the individuals' ability to listen to and hear their own spirit. Many don't even know they have one. I will pray that your inquiry goes well for you.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Christians have a unique advantage over non-Christians in this regard. Our spirit is in perfect agreement with The Spirit of The Lord. The problem many of them have, though, lies in the individuals' ability to listen to and hear their own spirit. Many don't even know they have one. I will pray that your inquiry goes well for you.

But who can accurately deem one's actions as being ordained by the Spirit of God and that not of man? Is the bible the final word on the matter? If so, what translation? Is the Spirit with you, as placed there by God the final authority? But then how do we know? How can someone say, "God said...." and be expected to be believed when so many have come before him and said the same thing.

I understand that it is based on faith, as are my beliefs; but to act on something that God tells you can get pretty creepy really fast. Maybe these people that we thought were crazy WERE right.

 

[On Fire]

I did leave it. I just wondered (to satisfy my own morbid curiosity) why the dog and pony show was even necessary in the first place?

But you didn't leave it. You're just rejecting a segment of people who call themselves Christ followers. Why not just renounce God and Jesus and get it over with?

Why not, "Thou sins are removed, whether you believe or not!"? Would people love Jesus any less or more?

I think they would love him less! Are you kidding me?! Look at all we take for granted.

That way, the acceptance of Jesus would not in any way be conditional. The way it is now (at least by my perspective) is that you cannot believe until you are called, and imparted with the gift to believe in the first place. Then you had better believe these other things as well, or there still might be hell to pay.

"Called and imparted"? :nono: It's free will. You make the decision with your heart, mind and will.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

But you didn't leave it. You're just rejecting a segment of people who call themselves Christ followers. Why not just renounce God and Jesus and get it over with?

Well, I did that. I am not rejecting the people that believe, but the faith itself. I am just wondering why the incarnation, crucifiction and and resurrection were even necessary? Instead of answering ("I don't know" is a good honest answer), you think that I am hanging around trying to get believers to prove to me that I am wrong. Three after I left the faith (after long painful nights and soul searching) I did renounced God and Jesus, but it was more of thing that I felt I had to do so that I could cast of the old superstition.
Now that I have renounced Him/Them, will you answer my question? If not it's cool.

I think they would love him less! Are you kidding me?! Look at all we take for granted.
"Called and imparted"? :nono: It's free will. You make the decision with your heart, mind and will.

Mind? I don't think so; is your belief based on faith? If so, then it cannot be an intellectual process that caused you to arrive at the conclusion. Faith is belief in something INSPITE of evidence to the contray. In essence, you choose to believe the way you do.
It's your right, and I would not even dream of denying you those rights. My beliefs are based on faith as well, and I'll discuss with anyone that wants to, but I cannot prove them.

 

[Aimiel]

But who can accurately deem one's actions as being ordained by the Spirit of God and (not) that of man?

Because The Spirit of The Lord doesn't magnify himself or the vessel He works through, The Word of God is lifted up, not the motives of mere men.

Is the bible the final word on the matter?

God is alive, and His Word is Spirit and Life, not a printed word on a page.

Is the Spirit with you, as placed there by God the final authority?

His Authority always agrees with The Written Word.

But then how do we know? How can someone say, "God said...." and be expected to be believed when so many have come before him and said the same thing.

That is where righteous judgement and discernment come into play.

I understand that it is based on faith, as are my beliefs; but to act on something that God tells you can get pretty creepy really fast.

No, never. There is nothing creepy, spooky, mysterious or untoward in The Lord; with one caveat, He does reserve a certain amount of knowledge and wisdom that are yet to be revealed, but that is for the benefit of those who would be adversely effected by that knowledge being dispersed before the time.

 

[Lovejoy]

Mind? I don't think so; is your belief based on faith? If so, then it cannot be an intellectual process that caused you to arrive at the conclusion. Faith is belief in something INSPITE of evidence to the contray. In essence, you choose to believe the way you do.

I am not sure about that. And, I think it would be a fine thing to start a thread on. Personally, I think faith is more complicated than that. It is, perhaps, another means by which to come to a conclusion, but it is not a means that is exclusive from the intellectual process. C.S. Lewis often used intellectual processes to come to conclusions of faith, in that his thinking got him just so far, and his faith did the rest. Perhaps like jumping out of an airplane for the first time, in that you intellectually know and understand that the chute will open and deccelerate you (though you may not have full comprehension of the mechanics), but that is not really the reason that you are there, or even enough motive to to go. You end up needing the extra impetus of excitement, ego, and perhaps a little faith in your instructor to make it happen. These things are not independant of each other, but interdependant.

Theology is not beyond human intellect, or inconsistent with it. Obviously not. God is, to a certain extent, comprehensible, and it is worthwhile to try. Intellect is just not a particulary good motive for trying to understand God, and it is inadequate to provide a real relationship with Him. That is where love, and faith, come in. Faith provides motive to try to understand God, and allows us to continue even though full understanding is impossible.

Actually, that was not a very good attempt at trying to express my thoughts on the matter. Would you like to start a thread on it, and invite more contributions?

 

[EarnestBorg9]

I am not sure about that. And, I think it would be a fine thing to start a thread on. Personally, I think faith is more complicated than that. It is, perhaps, another means by which to come to a conclusion, but it is not a means that is exclusive from the intellectual process. C.S. Lewis often used intellectual processes to come to conclusions of faith, in that his thinking got him just so far, and his faith did the rest. Perhaps like jumping out of an airplane for the first time, in that you intellectually know and understand that the chute will open and deccelerate you (though you may not have full comprehension of the mechanics), but that is not really the reason that you are there, or even enough motive to to go. You end up needing the extra impetus of excitement, ego, and perhaps a little faith in your instructor to make it happen. These things are not independant of each other, but interdependant.

Theology is not beyond human intellect, or inconsistent with it. Obviously not. God is, to a certain extent, comprehensible, and it is worthwhile to try. Intellect is just not a particulary good motive for trying to understand God, and it is inadequate to provide a real relationship with Him. That is where love, and faith, come in. Faith provides motive to try to understand God, and allows us to continue even though full understanding is impossible.

Actually, that was not a very good attempt at trying to express my thoughts on the matter. Would you like to start a thread on it, and invite more contributions?

Sure, I'll start one now and reference this one; for a "Hi everyone, I'm new!" thread, I have wandered all over the place!
The new thread should be here, but the browser locked up when I submitted it.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=923569#post923569

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Because The Spirit of The Lord doesn't magnify himself or the vessel He works through,

I thought that the Lord wanted to be worship/magnified/exalted?

The Word of God is lifted up, not the motives of mere men.God is alive, and His Word is Spirit and Life, not a printed word on a page.

But the 'wrods on the page', I.E. the bible is what people are reading; yet even thought all believers (more or less) have a copy of the same book, there appears to be countless interpretations. Not translations, but countless ideas on what verses actually mean.

His Authority always agrees with The Written Word.

But His authority is compared against the bible, and then the bible is compared with his authority; again, it's circular.
It's like me saying, " I am right because I wrote a book that says I'm right. If you don't believe me, read my book."

That is where righteous judgement and discernment come into play.

But you cannot exercise "righteous judgement and discernment" until you already believe in the first place, right? So, it come down to, 'You have to believe before you can believe'. It's a circular argument.

No, never. There is nothing creepy, spooky, mysterious or untoward in The Lord; with one caveat, He does reserve a certain amount of knowledge and wisdom that are yet to be revealed, but that is for the benefit of those who would be adversely effected by that knowledge being dispersed before the time.

I could produce verses (hundreds) that would challange the claim that the Lord, based on what the bible has to say, isn't creepy, contradictory and an invention of men.
But, that may be too harsh; I can start another thread or you can tell me to go away.

 

[On Fire]

Well, I did that. I am not rejecting the people that believe, but the faith itself. I am just wondering why the incarnation, crucifiction and and resurrection were even necessary? Instead of answering ("I don't know" is a good honest answer), you think that I am hanging around trying to get believers to prove to me that I am wrong. Three after I left the faith (after long painful nights and soul searching) I did renounced God and Jesus, but it was more of thing that I felt I had to do so that I could cast of the old superstition.
Now that I have renounced Him/Them, will you answer my question? If not it's cool.

Your "objection to organized Christianity" has turned into the question "why the incarnation, crucifiction and and resurrection were even necessary". I assume you've heard all of the possible answers to that question, but just in case:

http://www.google.com/search?source...D:2005-17,GGLD:en&q=why+did+jesus+have+to+die

Mind? I don't think so; is your belief based on faith? If so, then it cannot be an intellectual process that caused you to arrive at the conclusion. Faith is belief in something INSPITE of evidence to the contray. In essence, you choose to believe the way you do. It's your right, and I would not even dream of denying you those rights. My beliefs are based on faith as well, and I'll discuss with anyone that wants to, but I cannot prove them.

Yes, MIND. How could you make the decision to put your faith in Jesus Christ without using your mind? Maybe that's what was missing in your first go-around. :think:

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Your "objection to organized Christianity" has turned into the question "why the incarnation, crucifiction and and resurrection were even necessary". I assume you've heard all of the possible answers to that question, but just in case:

http://www.google.com/search?source...D:2005-17,GGLD:en&q=why+did+jesus+have+to+die

Not really answers, because in all of the refutations, the person HAS to have some belief in Christianity to begin with. I mean come on, if I don't believe in the validity of the bible, what good is it going to do you to quite the bible?!?!?
The question "why the incarnation, crucifiction and and resurrection were even necessary" is one of the reasons I have an objection to Christianity.

Yes, MIND. How could you make the decision to put your faith in Jesus Christ without using your mind? Maybe that's what was missing in your first go-around. :think:

I don't mean that I was a vegetable or that I lack on cognitive processess on the matter; I just arrived at a point in which I could no longer reconcile my faith with my mind.

 

[On Fire]

I don't mean that I was a vegetable or that I lack on cognitive processess on the matter; I just arrived at a point in which I could no longer reconcile my faith with my mind.

I meant, where was your mind when you first decided to follow Jesus?

 

[EarnestBorg9]

I meant, where was your mind when you first decided to follow Jesus?

I was 16, and no offense to teens on this board, but I was not really stable. I am a very emotional person and it has taken me most of my life to get myself under control. No meds, just will.
I was like others, hurting and in need of acceptance and love. I needed things to just make sense and at the time it certainly did.
BUT I knew nothing of biblical history, archeology, science, memes, basic human psycology and myths/legends/fables.