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[Aimiel]

Wow! This is quite an introduction thread!! For all the heat he is taking though, his rep has already hit triple digits!

I noticed that, too. He seems honest and likeable enough. He'll definitely spark some debate.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Wow! This is quite an introduction thread!! For all the heat he is taking though, his rep has already hit triple digits!

What does it mean if my rep hits triple digits? I hope it's good!

 

[Lovejoy]

What does it mean if my rep hits triple digits? I hope it's good!

Hit the "User CP" button in the upper left hand corner of the screen. It will show how many people have given you good remarks and, with them, points towards your reputation. You must have been given a few good reps by now, to have a rep score of 200 or so.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Both.

If the premise of your worldview is that truth is in the eye of the beholder, you have no grounds to debate anyone on anything.

Isn't that true?

My apologies, I wish I were more articulate; I believe that Truth, that is spiritual truth, is attainable via various paths. In other words, no single group, be they Christain, catholic, buddhist, wiccan, pagan, fill in the blank, has the market cornered on truth. We take different paths yet are all striving toward the same goal. My experience with Christianity yielded some positive and negative results, the point is I learned from those experiences and while I took a jab at extremists, I would never deny anyone their right to believe, worship or follow the diety/belief system of their choice, UNLESS said belief imposed on others' right to pracitice theirs. Call me paranoid, but I can see that happen if more extremists get involved in politics.

Besides, the purpose of debate is an open exchange of conflicting ideas. I am not trying nor do I have any interest in converting anyone; I doubt that I could even do that if I wanted to. I just like to know where other people are in their pilgrimage.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Hit the "User CP" button in the upper left hand corner of the screen. It will show how many people have given you good remarks and, with them, points towards your reputation. You must have been given a few good reps by now, to have a rep score of 200 or so.

That's cool; by the way, I love the heat

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Somewhere in there you are going to have to establish that intolerance is a bad thing. As the idea of a "relative" or "equal" approach to truth and belief systems is inconsistent with an exclusive system (such as mine), anyone holding that belief must feel that I am wrong (and how, exactly, is that different from my believing that they are wrong?) Is that intolerance? Is characterizing exclusivists as hateful and narrowminded an intolerance?

But you see, I do not think that you are wrong, I just think that you are on a different path. Now, if you or someone would tell me that I am going to hell, I would certainly say that they are wrong, or more accurately , misled. Until a person imposes their beliefs on others, I am rather neutral.

I tend to be "tolerant" of other belief systems, particulary on issues that are not essential. That does not stop me from believing that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and for that matter, the only Way, Truth, and Light. He is exclusive, and therefore, so am I. That is not intolerance, it is simple moral courage.

You and I are not that far from each other with respect to tolerance, but how far would you take exclusivity? Would you vote for a president mirrored your beliefs in everyway EXCEPT he was an atheist, a pagan, a buddhist, anything but a bible believing Christain? Would you vote for a canidate that WAS a Christian but had certain moral issuse that you objected to, was incompetent, etc?


Thanks for the reply btw, these are very good questions and I hope that I am expressing myself well.

 

[death2impiety]

Originally Posted by Lovejoy

I tend to be "tolerant" of other belief systems, particulary on issues that are not essential. That does not stop me from believing that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and for that matter, the only Way, Truth, and Light. He is exclusive, and therefore, so am I. That is not intolerance, it is simple moral courage

Awesome. I've been looking for a way to express this so clearly.
Beautiful LJ. :first:

 

[EarnestBorg9]

As The Lord says, you have to believe that He exists and is A Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. You apparently didn't, or didn't look for Him with your whole heart. Had you done so, you'd have found Him. He hasn't broken any of His Promises, and never will. Either God is wrong or you are. I choose you.

I understand, but the fact is, I did seek. If my faith was broken, then why does he not fix it? With all due respect, there are many, many people that have walked away from the Christian faith, some in anger, some in pain andothers like me that discovered it just did not 'work' for them. Does this mean that all of us are lacking in true faith? That even though we did seek, that perhaps our motives were impure, or self serving? Personal anecdotes aside, I cannot convince anyone that I was sincere, that I did believe he existed and that I did ask hi into my heart as my lord and saviour. I wasn't going through the motions, I really did believe.
One day it seemed he just went away. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't like someing really horrible happened, it was as if I called out to him and he didn't answer. I tried to find solace in the bible, in fellowship and prayer, and nothing brought him back. At the risk of sounding like total weenie, I cried for a long time, many nights and a few spent in confusion. Leaving Christianity (after I realized, at least to me, that it never real in the first place) was arguably the hardest thing I have ever done.

But I understand that if you are a literalist, then of course I am wrong, God cannot be wrong, so it's cool.
Thanks for replying!

 

[EarnestBorg9]

I noticed that, too. He seems honest and likeable enough. He'll definitely spark some debate.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

 

[Lovejoy]

But you see, I do not think that you are wrong, I just think that you are on a different path. Now, if you or someone would tell me that I am going to hell, I would certainly say that they are wrong, or more accurately , misled. Until a person imposes their beliefs on others, I am rather neutral.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't believe you. I mean, if I believe that Christ is the only way to salvation, and you believe that many paths lead there, we are in logical opposition. You would have to be in a pretty profound state of cognitive dissonance to simultaneously believe that I am not right in my exclusive belief (which states that those who do not have Christ are not saved), while believing that I am not wrong in my faith, since they are one and the same. While I am required to (and for that matter, desire to) treat you with love, I think you are wrong. What is wrong with saying that? It is no disrespect, as I do not even claim that it was a more enlightened idea or some greater quality of myself that lead me to be on the right path. I was merely willing to accept a gift given.

You and I are not that far from each other with respect to tolerance, but how far would you take exclusivity? Would you vote for a president mirrored your beliefs in everyway EXCEPT he was an atheist, a pagan, a buddhist, anything but a bible believing Christain? Would you vote for a canidate that WAS a Christian but had certain moral issuse that you objected to, was incompetent, etc?

We are talking about two different things, I fear. My vision implies that the incompetent candidate is saved, not a better politician. My exclusivity (is that a word?) is in essential truths about God, not about (essentially) secular government. I believe that God wishes for us to have a moral government, and to vote our conscience, but having a Christian leader is not an essential truth. Our salvation does not depend on it. Christianity has survived before without any representation in the world's leaders.

Thanks for the reply btw, these are very good questions and I hope that I am expressing myself well.

You are doing fine.

 

[Aimiel]

But I understand that if you are a literalist, then of course I am wrong, God cannot be wrong, so it's cool.

I don't just take what is meant literally in a literal sense, I rely upon The Holy Spirit to show me the difference and to correct me as He sees fit. I believe that you'll find many others on TOL, as well as myself, who aren't talking about someone they know 'about' when they talk about The Lord, they're talking about Someone they know, personally. You are correct to assume that The Lord cannot be wrong.

 

[Aimiel]

...I believe that Truth, that is spiritual truth, is attainable via various paths.

There is, though, only One Truth which leads to eternal life, though, and His Name is Jesus. All paths, eventually, lead to God; some lead to His Judgement, but only one, the straight and narrow path, lead to eternal life.

 

[Lovejoy]

There is, though, only One Truth which leads to eternal life, though, and His Name is Jesus. All paths, eventually, lead to God; some lead to His Judgement, but only one, the straight and narrow path, lead to eternal life.

Interesting way of phrasing that. I will now steal it for my own use!

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't believe you. I mean, if I believe that Christ is the only way to salvation, and you believe that many paths lead there, we are in logical opposition.

You are correct, then. If you believe that Christ is the One and Only Way ®, then we are in opposition. However, while it may be true that you would want me to come over to the other side and believe the way that you do, I do not have the desire to bring you around to my way of thinking. Just promise not to burn me at the stake and we'll get along fine

You would have to be in a pretty profound state of cognitive dissonance to simultaneously believe that I am not right in my exclusive belief (which states that those who do not have Christ are not saved), while believing that I am not wrong in my faith, since they are one and the same. While I am required to (and for that matter, desire to) treat you with love, I think you are wrong. What is wrong with saying that? It is no disrespect, as I do not even claim that it was a more enlightened idea or some greater quality of myself that lead me to be on the right path. I was merely willing to accept a gift given.

I understand; and in my opinion, you are not intolerant. If you were to shout me down, or try to remove my right to believe the way that I want or maybe open a church (?) proclaiming my beliefs then that would be intolerant, obviously. I get the feeling that I may not be expressing myself as consistant as I'd like to.

We are talking about two different things, I fear. My vision implies that the incompetent candidate is saved, not a better politician. My exclusivity (is that a word?) is in essential truths about God, not about (essentially) secular government. I believe that God wishes for us to have a moral government, and to vote our conscience, but having a Christian leader is not an essential truth. Our salvation does not depend on it. Christianity has survived before without any representation in the world's leaders.

That's good to hear; please forgive me by the way, I tend to start talking about something then spiral off into a tangent! You see, you are not one of the believers that I have problem with at all, you are consistant, based on the views that you have expressed and I can see where you are coming from.

To throw another log on the fire, if my views remain the same and I discover that I am wrong at the end of this life, I will be without excuse. I do accept the possibility that I could be misled, that Christianity is the way, or Mormonism is correct, or whatever. Do you have those doubts? I'm not talking about a momentary crisis of faith, but an honest questioning that perhaps you may be wrong?

 

[EarnestBorg9]

I don't just take what is meant literally in a literal sense, I rely upon The Holy Spirit to show me the difference and to correct me as He sees fit. I believe that you'll find many others on TOL, as well as myself, who aren't talking about someone they know 'about' when they talk about The Lord, they're talking about Someone they know, personally. You are correct to assume that The Lord cannot be wrong.

That's cool, I assumed that you believed the bible was literal in everything that it stated. I just cannot believe in a personal Jesus anymore. It's not like its lonely, nor do I regret not 'knowing Him'. Of course it would be nice to believe that the Christian God of the universe has more than a passing interest in me, that He knows me much better than I know myself. I just cannot believe it anymore. But it's ok, no offense, but it's much like when I realized that Santa Claus did not exist. I was sad for awhile, but it made sense that my parents were Santa. No harm, no foul.

 

[Aimiel]

Interesting way of phrasing that. I will now steal it for my own use!

Hey, I read it on TOL, I didn't make it up. Please, feel free. Like I always say, "That'll preach again."

 

[EarnestBorg9]

There is, though, only One Truth which leads to eternal life, though, and His Name is Jesus. All paths, eventually, lead to God; some lead to His Judgement, but only one, the straight and narrow path, lead to eternal life.

Yeah, I agree with Lovejoy, that was an interesting way to put that.
Are these beliefs based on the bible? On Holy Spirit revelation? Something else? I guess one of the problems I have (and I did not think about this until long after I stopped believing) is why would God, the most powerful being in existance, the One whom created everything, etc, obligated to deny people his children into heaven in the first place? This may be a good time to start another thread, because it isn't as if I don't at least intellectually understand salvation and what it means. I just cannot reconcile that God could not just simply snap His fingers and make it happen. I do not think that if salvation was given to all REGARDLESS of belief that it would in any way cheapen it. The only ones that would have a problem with it in my opinion would be the ones that felt they had somehow earned it, possibly through living a life of sacrifice and chastiy. Anyway, if you'd like, I can eloborate on this in another thread.

I have to step away for a few (putting up halloween decorations), I'll check on the board when I'm finished.

 

[Aimiel]

I just cannot believe in a personal Jesus anymore.

When I reached that point, I told The Lord about it, and waited for His Reply. It took Him almost four years to reply. There were several things which He led me through before He set me up big time. I was at a service where I saw people who The Holy Spirit was moving upon, alongside those who were feigning the same 'type' of manifestation, and asked, "Why do you allow this 'flesh parade' to continue? Why not rain fire and brimstone on those who are practicing 'religion' when You are The Lord of The Universe, and don't even like religion?" He answered, "I'm calling you out of 'religion' tonight." The message began shortly after that. It was about religion. The pastor said that God wanted to call someone out of 'religion' and into His Reality. That someone should come forward. He walked (you have to understand, I'd been to several hundred of this pastor's sermons, he never walks during his sermons) down the aisle, and stopped at the end of the row I was in. I heard The Spirit of The Lord say the things that he was preaching, just before he said them. It was the first such time, and I began to cry, and went to the altar, as He instructed. As I reached the stage, there were about 50 others who followed me. He had been saying, "This is your night," to me all day, and I could not understand what He meant until that moment. When I got up from that floor, I've never winked at religion since. I don't believe in it. Don't get me wrong, those who visit and help with widows and orphans are the best, but organized, "We have high church in this place," type of religious nut-cases, I don't want anything to do with them; they're dead, and unless The Lord instructs me to breath life into them, they'll die with their dead members saying, "Amen," to everything their dead pastor says.

It's not like its lonely, nor do I regret not 'knowing Him'.

I pray that a hard case of severe and depressing lonliness drives you right to your knees. :thumb:

 

[Lovejoy]

You are correct, then. If you believe that Christ is the One and Only Way ®, then we are in opposition. However, while it may be true that you would want me to come over to the other side and believe the way that you do, I do not have the desire to bring you around to my way of thinking. Just promise not to burn me at the stake and we'll get along fine


I understand; and in my opinion, you are not intolerant. If you were to shout me down, or try to remove my right to believe the way that I want or maybe open a church (?) proclaiming my beliefs then that would be intolerant, obviously. I get the feeling that I may not be expressing myself as consistant as I'd like to.



That's good to hear; please forgive me by the way, I tend to start talking about something then spiral off into a tangent! You see, you are not one of the believers that I have problem with at all, you are consistant, based on the views that you have expressed and I can see where you are coming from.

To throw another log on the fire, if my views remain the same and I discover that I am wrong at the end of this life, I will be without excuse. I do accept the possibility that I could be misled, that Christianity is the way, or Mormonism is correct, or whatever. Do you have those doubts? I'm not talking about a momentary crisis of faith, but an honest questioning that perhaps you may be wrong?

This deserves more than an off-the-cuff response, and I have some work to do. So I will return later to continue. God bless.

 

[Aimiel]

...why would God, the most powerful being in existance, the One whom created everything, etc, obligated to deny people his children into heaven in the first place?

He designed it this way for His Eternal Purpose. If you really want to know, and don't just want to take someone's word who might know a few things 'about' Him or even the world of 10,000 people who know Him, but if you want to know, really know, you'll have to ask Him. If you wait until you realize that He exists, and you missed out on His Offer, until after you die, it will be eternally too late. Not just for you to get the answer you want, but to change your mind.