Mexicans are Dumb and Will Destroy America?

[bybee]

That's just it, though. Our personal predispositions/prejudices should be irrelevent.

I'm just saying: don't you think that it's screwed up that a scholar ended up having to resign over this? Not because of bad scholarship, but because of the personal opinions and feelings of the uneducated mob which is the American public.



The claim appeared in a Harvard dissertation. We can always start there.

Edit: In the event that you didn't know, writing a dissertation is kind of a big thing.

Oh yes The Ivory Towers of academia! Filled with self-impressed know-it-alls who haven't bothered to dirty their hands in the real world.

 

[PyramidHead]

This seems plausible: immigrants tend to be poor, and poor people tend to be stupid. Like tends to generate like. Poor, stupid parents tend to beget poor, stupid children.

Traditio how much do you make a year? How much in student loans do you owe? Please slow down and look at the words you're typing

 

[Traditio]

Unskilled at what?

Marketable job skills and/or education.

Is there an IQ test that is fair given the cultural differences?
What if "most white people" were subjected to the life style of the average Mexican? Would it make a difference in IQ level?
You haven't lived enough nor have you loved enough to be qualified to even pose the question.

Look, let all of this be what it may, unless you're going to say that the question literally cannot be answered with "true" or "false," then the question has an answer. Do they have lower IQs or not? Do they have marketable job skills or not? Are they poor or not? If the answer to these three questions is "yes," do they tend to produce children who are similar in these respects or not?

These questions have answers. They're not nonsense.

 

[Traditio]

Traditio how much do you make a year? How much in student loans do you owe? Please slow down and look at the words you're typing

I suppose you could call me "poor" if you wanted, but you couldn't call me unskilled/uneducated or dumb (low-IQ).

Edit: Further. What's at stake isn't normative. From "Mexican immigrants tend to be poor, unskilled and dumb," no normative conclusion follows. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should close our borders. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should kick them out. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should round them up and gas them.

What's at stake isn't a practical conclusion. It's purely speculative: "What is the case?"

 

[bybee]

I suppose you could call me "poor" if you wanted, but you couldn't call me unskilled/uneducated or dumb (low-IQ).

Edit: Further. What's at stake isn't normative. From "Mexican immigrants tend to be poor, unskilled and dumb," no normative conclusion follows. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should close our borders. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should kick them out. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should round them up and gas them.

What's at stake isn't a practical conclusion. It's purely speculative: "What is the case?"

The case is: How much credibility does a college student sitting in a chair in front of his computer alone in a room frittering away his time on inane and inconsequential propositions have?
Get a job! Get a life! Help someone!

 

[PyramidHead]

I suppose you could call me "poor" if you wanted, but you couldn't call me unskilled/uneducated or dumb (low-IQ).

Edit: Further. What's at stake isn't normative. From "Mexican immigrants tend to be poor, unskilled and dumb," no normative conclusion follows. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should close our borders. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should kick them out. It doesn't necessarily follow that we should round them up and gas them.

What's at stake isn't a practical conclusion. It's purely speculative: "What is the case?"

I think you're looking at a small picture. Many immigrants from Mexico suffer from poor education. They tend to be surrounded by corrupt officials and caught in the crossfire of narcoterrorism. So it would be a practical assumption that whether they are 'dumb, unskilled and poor' or not, they're coming here because of the circumstances over there. And just because someone is poorly educated and living in poverty doesn't mean they will have idiot children. That's just silly, they have a chance to do as well as anybody else, isn't that the American dream?

 

[Traditio]

The case is: How much credibility does a college student sitting in a chair in front of his computer alone in a room frittering away his time on inane and inconsequential propositions have?
Get a job! Get a life! Help someone!

I don't think that it's inane or inconsequential, Bybee. This is something that matters to me. This guy's academic career, for all intents and purposes, is pretty much over because of this.

There's something wrong with that.

 

[annabenedetti]

That's just it, though. Our personal predispositions/prejudices should be irrelevent.

You're the one who brought it into the conversation.

I'm just saying: don't you think that it's screwed up that a scholar ended up having to resign over this? Not because of bad scholarship, but because of the personal opinions and feelings of the uneducated mob which is the American public.

He chose to resign. And why do you accept his scholarship unquestioningly? Could it be because it confirms your bias?

The claim appeared in a Harvard dissertation. We can always start there.

Edit: In the event that you didn't know, writing a dissertation is kind of a big thing.

This has nothing to do with whether writing a dissertation is kind of a big thing.

 

[Traditio]

I think you're looking at a small picture. Many immigrants from Mexico suffer from poor education. They tend to be surrounded by corrupt officials and caught in the crossfire of narcoterrorism. So it would be a practical assumption that whether they are 'dumb, unskilled and poor' or not, they're coming here because of the circumstances over there.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't change the fact. All that you are saying is that the facts can be explained. But this is not in dispute.

And just because someone is poorly educated and living in poverty doesn't mean they will have idiot children. That's just silly, they have a chance to do as well as anybody else, isn't that the American dream?

As a matter of fact, this is what tends to happen. As the saying goes: "The apple does not fall far from the tree."

Are there exceptions? Yup.

Are these exceptions the rule? Nope.

Socioeconomic mobility, in practice, isn't nearly as great or as common as the so called "American Dream" would have us believe.

And look, ultimately, this thread isn't even about Mexicans immigrants. It's not to debate whether or not Mexican immigrants are dumb.

What's at issue is that an academic's career is over because he wrote this in his dissertation.

 

[PyramidHead]

I don't think that it's inane or inconsequential, Bybee. This is something that matters to me. This guy's academic career, for all intents and purposes, is pretty much over because of this.

There's something wrong with that.

There's something wrong with him losing his academic career, sure. But do you feel a similar empathy for those attempting to escape bloodshed and poverty by coming to America? Because some of the stories of the immigrants are far, far more moving and intense then this one guy's plight. Do their ailments move you as well?

 

[bybee]

There's something wrong with him losing his academic career, sure. But do you feel a similar empathy for those attempting to escape bloodshed and poverty by coming to America? Because some of the stories of the immigrants are far, far more moving and intense then this one guy's plight. Do their ailments move you as well?

Excellent response!

 

[Traditio]

He chose to resign.

In the face of overwhelmingly negative public reaction, he "chose" to resign.

And why do you accept his scholarship unquestioningly? Could it be because it confirms your bias?

I didn't write a dissertation on that stuff. It's not my field of study. If I'm not qualified one way or the other to know the answer, ceteris paribus, I assume that the guy who's educated in the field knows what he's talking about. This is why I also think that conservative Christians (who aren't scientists) are really dumb for disputing global warming. :idunno:

 

[PyramidHead]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't change the fact. All that you are saying is that the facts can be explained. But this is not in dispute.



As a matter of fact, this is what tends to happen. As the saying goes: "The apple does not fall far from the tree."

Are there exceptions? Yup.

Are these exceptions the rule? Nope.

Socioeconomic mobility, in practice, isn't nearly as great or as common as the so called "American Dream" would have us believe.

And look, ultimately, this thread isn't even about Mexicans immigrants. It's not to debate whether or not Mexican immigrants are dumb.

What's at issue is that an academic's career is over because he wrote this in his dissertation.

OK. Maybe my point is that so what? A lot of things aren't fair. But I guarantee you, before you feel smarter and richer than some Mexican immigrants, that you would not enjoy being in their shoes back down South. You might even get killed by a cop, or held for ransom by a drug trafficker, and all your diplomas and academic careers and IQ in the world will amount to not much at all. I think somebody losing their job is an overreaction to a potentially offensive dissertation, but I wouldn't even state that immigrants tend to be dumb, country-destroying, idiot breeding country destroyers (hyperbolic, I know, I'm trying to have fun here) as a fact. The immigrants who came in on the Mayflower did pretty well

 

[Traditio]

There's something wrong with him losing his academic career, sure.

That's the sole point of this thread. :idunno:

But do you feel a similar empathy for those attempting to escape bloodshed and poverty by coming to America? Because some of the stories of the immigrants are far, far more moving and intense then this one guy's plight. Do their ailments move you as well?

PyramidHead: the sentiments that I've expressed aren't anti-immigration. As I said, from a speculative premise, no practical conclusion follows.

If I expressed anti-immigration sentiments on the grounds that the immigrants aren't useful to society, and I didn't say that we should act and legislate based on compassion, justice and charity, I wouldn't be speaking as a Christian. :idunno:

 

[PyramidHead]

That's the sole point of this thread. :idunno:



PyramidHead: the sentiments that I've expressed aren't anti-immigration. As I said, from a speculative premise, no practical conclusion follows.

If I expressed anti-immigration sentiments on the grounds that the immigrants aren't useful to society, and I didn't say that we should act and legislate based on compassion, justice and charity, I wouldn't be speaking as a Christian. :idunno:

Sorry if I was misconstruing your views, I just feel that your sympathy is misplaced in this issue

 

[Traditio]

Sorry if I was misconstruing your views, I just feel that your sympathy is misplaced in this issue

Given the fact that I just finished an MA program and likely am starting a Ph.D. program this coming fall...I beg to differ. As someone who is pursuing an academic career path myself, my sympathy is for the academic.

 

[PyramidHead]

Given the fact that I just finished an MA program and likely am starting a Ph.D. program this coming fall...I beg to differ. As someone who is pursuing an academic career path myself, my sympathy is for the academic.

So the whole thread is sort of a pity party for this one guy then?

 

[Traditio]

So the whole thread is sort of a pity party for this one guy then?

Yes. I thought the OP made that clear.

Secondarily, it's also about why the public should have no say in politics and academia. Because the public apparently thinks that "this offends us" is an appropriate response to academic research. The common public shouldn't have the authority to rule. They should be ruled. By philosophers.

 

[annabenedetti]

In the face of overwhelmingly negative public reaction, he "chose" to resign.

Yep. He chose.

I didn't write a dissertation on that stuff. It's not my field of study. If I'm not qualified one way or the other to know the answer, ceteris paribus, I assume that the guy who's educated in the field knows what he's talking about. This is why I also think that conservative Christians (who aren't scientists) are really dumb for disputing global warming. :idunno:

So what do you think about the engineers who think the WTC's Tower 7 was brought down by explosives? Do you assume they're right because they're educated in the field?

 

[PyramidHead]

Yes. I thought the OP made that clear.

Secondarily, it's also about why the public should have no say in politics and academia. Because the public apparently thinks that "this offends us" is an appropriate response to academic research. The common public shouldn't have the authority to rule. They should be ruled. By philosophers.

Traditio that is ridiculous and I can't tell if you are serious. Most people who think that the ignorant masses should be directed by an elite caste tend to go down in history with a few red marks