ECT MARTIN LUTHER ON OBEDIENCE TO THE CHURCH

[oatmeal]

These statements refer specifically to the apostles/bishops of Christ's one historic Church, as the context plainly shows (2 Cor. 5:11-15, 20-21 ~ the "we"/"you" contrast). They do not apply to laymen like yoursef. Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Sorry, but your magestrium hasn't a clue.

All believers have the responsibility to reconcile others back to God.

If you looked upon yourself as a believer in scripture, you would recognize that.

 

[oatmeal]

Good, you've rightly refuted yourself.


Readers should note that oats has said absolutely nothing to actually disprove a single statement in Post #68 above. He has exactly nothing.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Until you actually start to teach scripture instead of your idol infested traditions, your silence would be your wisdom.

 

[Cruciform]

Until you actually start to teach scripture instead of your idol infested traditions, your silence would be your wisdom.

Right back at you, friend. Back to Post #76.

 

[Cruciform]

Sorry, but your magestrium hasn't a clue.All believers have the responsibility to reconcile others back to God.If you looked upon yourself as a believer in scripture, you would recognize that.

Post #76. :yawn:

 

[Totton Linnet]

No more than you do, friend. The simple fact is that you "submit to Christ" precisely in accordance with what you have been taught by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, just as I submit to Christ within the context of the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Catholic Church. Either way, we each follow Christ according to the dictates of our respective doctrinal traditions, you no less than I. Thus, if I (in your words) "refuse the direct rule of Christ in my life," then so, my friend, do you.


See above.


Back to Post #78.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

I admit that there are many Catholics who love the Lord and seek to follow Him, but there are probably more who do the sacraments and live like the devil.

It is very easy to be a Catholic....following Christ is another matter.

 

[Cruciform]

I admit that there are many Catholics who love the Lord and seek to follow Him, but there are probably more who do the sacraments and live like the devil.

Merely an unsubstantiated assumption on your part, no doubt uncritically derived from your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.

It is very easy to be a Catholic....following Christ is another matter.

Merely a False Dilemma Fallacy on your part, since---according to the New Testament---to do the one is likewise to do the other (Lk. 10:16; Ac. 9:5; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[6days]

I admit that there are many Catholics who love the Lord and seek to follow Him, but there are probably more who do the sacraments and live like the devil.

It is very easy to be a Catholic....following Christ is another matter.

I agree, but think the same could be said of most denominations.

 

[republicanchick]

too big, i may have read it if it fit my screen

yeh, I know. There is no argument for truth


so you divert your attention away therefrom


w/ silliness


___

 

[republicanchick]

Why not study Luther to understand why he left the RCC and then weigh the truth of it all?

he left the Church for the same reason(s) everyone else does: personal reasons. The Church hierarchy didn't dance to his tune.. or what have u

If the Presence of Christ was not in the Church, I would leave also

in my opinion the Church hierarchy (clergy) who do antichrist things... don't really follow Christ.. which is probably all or most of them.. will go to the lowest part of Hell

b/c they KNOW better..



_____

 

[republicanchick]

A man often wrestles with his conscience before saying the revolutionary but obvious.

that catholic church ended up agreeing with him on numerous points including indulgences....

not true

only about 1/2 of his Thesis was rejected when it was FIRST read. And there was not some period of.. what? 100 years? after which the Church "agreed with" Luther... How absurd. Truth does not take that long to know.. when you have the Holy Spirit, which Christ's Church of course does



__

 

[CabinetMaker]

he left the Church for the same reason(s) everyone else does: personal reasons. The Church hierarchy didn't dance to his tune.. or what have u

If the Presence of Christ was not in the Church, I would leave also

in my opinion the Church hierarchy (clergy) who do antichrist things... don't really follow Christ.. which is probably all or most of them.. will go to the lowest part of Hell

b/c they KNOW better..



_____

And what becomes of those that blindly follow these antichrist clergy?

 

[Totton Linnet]

The formal teachings of the Magisterium (apostles/bishops) are to be affirmed and followed by the faithful, just as was the case in the New Testament as well (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Jn. 4:6). If this is "lording it over" one's faith, then it has been the teaching of Jesus Christ, the apostles, and the bishops of the early Christian Church all along.

Seems to me that you just don't like the idea of having to obey anyone placed over you. It's often difficult for us Americans in particular (we don't like the notion of "obedience"). However, Jesus is our King, not our president, and we laymen just plain don't get a vote on doctrine and morals. Christ's one historic Church is not now---nor has it ever been---a democracy. You might want to get used to that fact.


Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

We obey the apostles you obey the usurpation. Go to mass, partake the sacrament then off to the booze parlour or vice den.....that is the average RC....They even come to mass drunk

 

[oatmeal]

Right back at you, friend. Back to Post #76.

Your post # 76 is void of any worthwhile content.

Martin Luther read scripture and in light of what he read in scripture wanted to help the RCC correct itself, but the RCC would have none of that, instead they wanted Luther dead.

The RCC, for the most part, remains at odds with scripture.

 

[Cruciform]

And what becomes of those that blindly follow these antichrist clergy?

Two points in response:

• First, Catholics no more "blindly" follow their ordained leaders than non-Catholics like yourself "blindly" follow the pastors/ministers in their chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects.
• Second, Catholics do not follow individual bishops---individual bishops are not considered infallible in their teachings---but rather follow the formal teachings of the body of bishops (i.e., Magisterium) as a whole. Once again, you merely show your fundamental ignorance of all things Catholic.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

We obey the apostles you obey the usurpation.

You obey the opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect about what the apostles supposedly "teach." We obey the authoritative teachings of that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and against which he declared that the gates of hell would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19; 1 Tim. 3:15).

Go to mass, partake the sacrament then off to the booze parlour or vice den...

Sorry, I don't drink alcohol (don't like the taste), and who knows what you mean by "vice." There's certainly nothing wrong with drinking alcoholic beverages---drunkenness is a sin, drinking is not (just as gluttony is wrong, and eating is not). Once again, you seem to be mindlessly buying into the anti-Catholic propaganda fed to you by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.

They even come to mass drunk

Not that I've ever seen, and I've been a Catholic for thirteen years now. In any case, even if you were right, it would change exactly nothing regarding the status of the Catholic Church as Christ's one historic Church. Try again.


Readers should note that in none of his comments here has TL in any way actually disproven any of the statements made in Posts #78 and #80 above. :nono:

My posted statements thus stand exactly as made.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Your post # 76 is void of any worthwhile content.

That must be why you've been utterly unable to provide any substantive argument whatsoever against the actual content of the post.

Martin Luther read scripture and in light of what he read in scripture wanted to help the RCC correct itself, but the RCC would have none of that...

What inherent doctrinal authority did Luther supposedly possess which would permit him to presume that he was free to replace the authoritative doctrines of Christ's one historic Church with his (Luther's) own subjective theological preferences and opinions? I short, what binding doctrinal authority did Luther possess that, for example, Arius, Pelagius, or Sabellius did not? :think:

The RCC, for the most part, remains at odds with scripture.

"...with your preferred interpretations of Scripture," you mean.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[CabinetMaker]

Two points in response:

• First, Catholics no more "blindly" follow their ordained leaders than non-Catholics like yourself "blindly" follow the pastors/ministers in their chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects.
• Second, Catholics do not follow individual bishops---individual bishops are not considered infallible in their teachings---but rather follow the formal teachings of the body of bishops (i.e., Magisterium) as a whole. Once again, you merely show your fundamental ignorance of all things Catholic.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Flat out evasion is always a good wat to avoid dealing with the question that was actually asked.

 

[Cruciform]

Flat out evasion is always a good wat to avoid dealing with the question that was actually asked.

The question you asked was internally flawed (as my response in Post #94 demonstrated), and so could not be directly answered as asked. Fix the factual errors in your question, and I'll be glad to reply.

 

[everready]

The One Historical Church?

The One Historical Church?

What happened to the bible after 100 AD? Did The Catholic Church Give Us The Bible?

http://biblebelievers.com/daniels/daniels_RCC/daniels_excerpt01.html


everready

 

[CabinetMaker]

The question you asked was internally flawed (as my response in Post #94 demonstrated), and so could not be directly answered as asked. Fix the factual errors in your question, and I'll be glad to reply.

No it wasn't. It was perfectly formed. What happens to the people that follow the anti Christ clergy RV was referring to.

Your answer was flawed because you created a straw man about what catholics should belive and do. What happens to those catholics that follow their local clergy in his anti Christ teachings?