ECT Mark of the beast and the seal of God PT2

[feneluscliff]

The Mark of beast? Many have heard the term, but who truly understand it? There are many theories about the mark, and the image *but, are they biblical? In this study we will get a biblical perspective on this issue.

The Mark of the beast is first mentioned in Revelation thirteen. The warning of receiving this mark, is given in the third angel's message, in Revelation fourteen. Before we go any further, we need to unveil the *identity of the beast, so we can better understand what his mark and image is.

One of the identifying characteristics, that defines the beast identity, is found in these words, "and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority" revelation 13:2. The beast received his power and authority from the Dragon. *The Dragon primarily represents Satan, revelation 12:9. The dragon also represents Pagan Rome, who Satan was working through, to kill Christ as soon as he was born, Revelation 12:4-5; Matthew 2:13-16. *In history, the event that marked, the giving of the dragon seat and authority *to the beast, is when emperor Justinian declared the pope to be head of *the church, in 533 AD. This was the beginning of the establishment of the papacy. It wasn't until 538 AD, that the papacy was fully established. *As we go on to read verse three of the same chapter, it reads, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."- Revelation 13:3; He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. - Revelation 13:10. In the preceding text, (13:2) we have seen the rise and the establishment of the papacy. Now we shall see their fall. The papacy received their deadly wound in 1798, by the French army. When Napoleon General, took Pope Pius VI, captive in France, where he later died. This is the event that fulfilled the prophecy mentioned in revelation 13:10. The wound was to be healed, as prophecy foretold in revelation 13:3. The deadly wound which the papacy had received by the French army, began to heal in 1929; at the signing of the lattern treaty, February 11,1929. What that did for the papacy, was to give them back autonomy or the power to govern themselves. They had lost that power as a result of the deadly wound they received.


What is the image of the beast,and how is it to be formed? When I think of image, my mind goes back to Genesis, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." - Genesis 1:26 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." - Genesis 1:27. Man was to bear God’s image, both in outward resemblance and in character. - PP 45.2

Christ alone is “the express image” (Hebrews 1:3) of the Father; but man was formed in the likeness of God. His nature was in harmony with the will of God. His mind was capable of comprehending divine things. His affections were pure; his appetites and passions were under the control of reason. He was holy and happy in bearing the image of God and in perfect obedience to His will. - PP 45.2


Here we have it, man was made in God's image, being made in God's image, man possess his attribute and characteristics. The same can be said of the image of the beast. It is the lamb like beast who shall make an image to the first beast, the papacy. But what nation is represented by the lamb like beast? We find our answer in revelation 13, and it reads, "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." - Revelation 13:11. The rising of the this beast is different from the first beast or any other beast mentioned in the bible. The first beast rises out of the sea, the sea or body of water represents:nations, tongues, kindreds, and people-Revelation 17:15. This rising is the same exact rising mentioned, in Daniel chapter 7. When the great winds of strife strove on the sea, four great beast came out. This is the representation of conquest in which kingdoms are setup. *To come out of the earth, is the opposite of rising out of the sea. The lamb like beast did not have to overthrow any kingdoms, but rose or grew peacefully, in an area unoccupied. Also this beast or kingdom is liken to a lamb, which is a representation of Christ, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." - John 1:29 "And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!" - John 1:36


This kingdom or nation, is also liken to lamb or Christ, because this nation and kingdom, exercise some of his attributes. The attribute or characteristics that this kingdom assimilate, is the ability to make men free. The bible bares record to Jesus doing just that, John 8:32-36, Luke 4:18. So the kingdom or nation, represented by the lamb like beast, is the United states of America. This christian nation grew silently into power after 1798, securing the freedom of it's citizens, freedom such as religious freedom. But of the lamb like beast it is said, "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon". - Revelation 13:11 "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." - Revelation 13:12 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men," - Revelation 13:13 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live." - Revelation 13:14

Prophecy has shown, that the United states, will take a drastic change from its former policies. It will adopt the principles of the Papacy, even religious intolerance and persecution. This can only happen when, "the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result." - GC 445.1


As the sign of the authority of the Catholic Church, papist writers cite “the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; ... because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin.”—Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, page 58. What then is the change of the Sabbath, but the sign, or mark, of the authority of the Roman Church—“the mark of the beast”? - GC 448.1

When Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God, to obey a precept which has no higher authority than that of Rome, will thereby honor popery above God. He is paying homage to Rome, and to the power which enforces the institution ordained by Rome. He is worshiping the beast and his image. As men then reject the institution which God has declared to be the sign of His authority, and honor in its stead that which Rome has chosen as the token of her supremacy, they will thereby accept the sign of allegiance to Rome,—“the mark of the beast.” And it is not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people, and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, that those who continue in transgression will receive “the mark of the beast.”—The Great Controversy, 449 (1888). - Ev 233.4


There is no time left to argue over this issue, for the time is at hand. Whether you believe this or not it will come. There will be a national Sunday law in honor to the Pope, for the holy scriptures teaches this. The real question is when the holy spirit convicts of this great truth, will you in defiance receive the mark of the beast?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The Mark of beast? Many have heard the term, but who truly understand it? There are many theories about the mark, and the image *but, are they biblical? In this study we will get a biblical perspective on this issue.

The Mark of the beast is first mentioned in Revelation thirteen. The warning of receiving this mark, is given in the third angel's message, in Revelation fourteen. Before we go any further, we need to unveil the *identity of the beast, so we can better understand what his mark and image is.

The first mention is--

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Meaning that only the LORD will kill him of the end--

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

LA

 

[revpete]

The first mention is--

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Meaning that only the LORD will kill him of the end--

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

LA

Well, you can take your pick on this one. Did God put a literal mark on Cain? Don't think so. However, that doesn't mean that the mark of the beast won't be.

The modern prevailing thought seems to be that the mark will be a means of gathering information/data on a person and thus anyone who receives it will become part of some anti-Christian system with anti-christ at its head.

My opinion is that the mark will simply be a form of identification. Not that God needs it: The Lord knows them that are His and Jesus knows His sheep. The identification will be for the benefit of a corrupt and ungodly society that have rejected Christ and His message. We (I believe) are living in the days that are setting the stage for the mark to be brought in. When every true believer will be identified by the absence of the mark and "appropriate" action will be taken. Having said that, no one really knows.

Pete

 

[kayaker]

Welcome to TOL, feneluscliff!

The mark of Cain was merely anonymity. Cain's sentence was solitary confinement without conjugal visits (Genesis 4:11, 12). Cain didn't ask for mercy reducing his sentence (Genesis 4:13)... Cain's plea was that even though he didn't get the death penalty, someone (Sethites & Co.) would still 'find him out' and kill him (Genesis 4:14 KJV). So, the mark actually impacted the Sethites & Co. as an abstract from of blindness so they wouldn't kill Cain.

Therefore, God put a mark on Cain such that he wouldn't be 'found out' and killed (Genesis 4:15 KJV); thereby, Cain was now out on parole to mix and mingle, undetected via God's 'witness protection plan'. However, procreation was never restored as an option; so, God told Cain that IF Cain decided to forfeit an exceedingly long life as a fatherless fellow mixing and mingling, AND broke parole procreating: Cain's otherwise long life as a fatherless fellow would be reduced to "sevenfold" generations.

Cain launched into procreation mode siring and son, and building a city (Genesis 4:16 KJV). Taking note that Cain's descendant Lamech (Genesis 4:17, 18), who knew Cain's story (unlike the Sethites & Co.) was the "sevenfold" generation counting from beguiled Eve, mother of all living... Eve generation #1, Cain generation #2... Lamech was the "sevenfold" generation. And, upon Lamech's death, his children (Genesis 4:21, 22), Cain's descendants would be 'unveiled', the mark of anonymity lifted, and they would be known as descendants of a cold-blooded, remorseless, premeditating murderer, who killed his brother, buried the body, and lied to God, to say the least (Genesis 4:8, 9, 10).

Therefore, Lamech was inspired to preserve the veil, the mark of anonymity for his descendants, so Lamech carried out God's sentence of a limited life by executing his beloved, relatively young great...grandfather (Genesis 4:23 KJV), even naming his son Tubal-cain in memoriam to his beloved great...grandfather.

Do note, neither their manners of death, nor their longevities are explicitly recorded in the OT: anonymity. Who did Lamech kill: anonymity... How was Cain otherwise punished for being such a horrific premeditating murderer? Anonymity... Why didn't Cain get the death penalty in the first place? Anonymity...

So, feneluscliff... I'm no expert, certainly not on the mark of the beast... And, all I can do is toss around the wild ramblings of a blind wild hawg rooting around for acorn....

kayaker

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Kayaker,

The connection is spiritual and not a flesh connection.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

LA

 

[kayaker]

Kayaker,

The connection is spiritual and not a flesh connection.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

LA

I agree with the spiritual component, LA... tell me if your Scripture resonates with Jesus' words:

Matthew 23:29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 (my parentheses) KJV "Woe unto you, scribes, and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye built the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,

30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers (flesh), we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets (literally so).

31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are (literally so) the children (literally so) of them (their literal fathers) which killed the prophets.

32) Fill ye up then the measure of your (literal fathers).

35) Ye serpents (figuratively, spiritual), ye generation (literal flesh descendants of those fathers who slew the prophets) of vipers (figurative, spiritual), how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

36) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets (who literally prophesy), and wise men, and scribes and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.

35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel... (Who killed, Abel?)​

Resonates with Revelation 18:24 with finer detail, LA. Consider Stephens words that lit the fuse on his final ad hoc testimony:

Acts 7:51, 52, 53, 54, KJV (my parentheses) Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did (flesh), so do ye.

52) Which of the prophets have not your (flesh) fathers persecuted? and they have slain (flesh) them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53) Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54) When they heard these things, they were cur to their heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.​

So LA, I've got the spiritual connection, well... not personally so, although that might be debatable, lol! How are you coming along with the flesh aspect? Who killed righteous Able? Those seeking Jesus' crucifixion were the flesh descendants of Cain, the way I read Jesus' words in Matthew 23:35 KJV and prior.

kayaker

 

[Livelystone]

Welcome to TOL, feneluscliff!

The mark of Cain was merely anonymity. Cain's sentence was solitary confinement without conjugal visits (Genesis 4:11, 12). Cain didn't ask for mercy reducing his sentence (Genesis 4:13)... Cain's plea was that even though he didn't get the death penalty, someone (Sethites & Co.) would still 'find him out' and kill him (Genesis 4:14 KJV). So, the mark actually impacted the Sethites & Co. as an abstract from of blindness so they wouldn't kill Cain.

Therefore, God put a mark on Cain such that he wouldn't be 'found out' and killed (Genesis 4:15 KJV); thereby, Cain was now out on parole to mix and mingle, undetected via God's 'witness protection plan'. However, procreation was never restored as an option; so, God told Cain that IF Cain decided to forfeit an exceedingly long life as a fatherless fellow mixing and mingling, AND broke parole procreating: Cain's otherwise long life as a fatherless fellow would be reduced to "sevenfold" generations.

Cain launched into procreation mode siring and son, and building a city (Genesis 4:16 KJV). Taking note that Cain's descendant Lamech (Genesis 4:17, 18), who knew Cain's story (unlike the Sethites & Co.) was the "sevenfold" generation counting from beguiled Eve, mother of all living... Eve generation #1, Cain generation #2... Lamech was the "sevenfold" generation. And, upon Lamech's death, his children (Genesis 4:21, 22), Cain's descendants would be 'unveiled', the mark of anonymity lifted, and they would be known as descendants of a cold-blooded, remorseless, premeditating murderer, who killed his brother, buried the body, and lied to God, to say the least (Genesis 4:8, 9, 10).

Therefore, Lamech was inspired to preserve the veil, the mark of anonymity for his descendants, so Lamech carried out God's sentence of a limited life by executing his beloved, relatively young great...grandfather (Genesis 4:23 KJV), even naming his son Tubal-cain in memoriam to his beloved great...grandfather.

Do note, neither their manners of death, nor their longevities are explicitly recorded in the OT: anonymity. Who did Lamech kill: anonymity... How was Cain otherwise punished for being such a horrific premeditating murderer? Anonymity... Why didn't Cain get the death penalty in the first place? Anonymity...

So, feneluscliff... I'm no expert, certainly not on the mark of the beast... And, all I can do is toss around the wild ramblings of a blind wild hawg rooting around for acorn....

kayaker

An interesting and thought provoking post

Considering the trade of Tubal-cain somehow survived the flood but was not seen again until 1200BC as the iron age but seen as early as 3000BC that dates to within 1000 years of the beginning of man in Biblical years

Then there was Enoch who walked with God before the flood but his reputation carried the same "men of renown" title as the builders of the tower of Babel 750 years after the flood.

I have always felt that the flood was prophetic of the outpouring of the spirit on all flesh that despite Pentecost and all of the blessings associated with it IMO has not been global as on all flesh. Plus Joel had to get His prophecy from somewhere and because Saul carried Pentecost blessings seen in his prophesying in the day of his anointing at Pentecost.......... IMO indicates a flood still in waiting

But then I am no different than a squirrel looking for the same acorn :chuckle:

 

[intojoy]

Gayaker

 

[DAN P]

The Mark of beast? Many have heard the term, but who truly understand it? There are many theories about the mark, and the image *but, are they biblical? In this study we will get a biblical perspective on this issue.
QUOTE]

Hi and the questions that have to be answered are the following !

#1 , Who is the Mark of the Beast given too ?

#2 , Is it given to Gentiles ONLY ?

#3 , Is it given to Jews ONLY !

#4 , What is the TIMELINE for the MARK ?

#5 , What those SEALED during the Great Tribulation , Rev 7:4-8 ?

#6 , Why does Mark 16:18 CONNECT to that book ?


This in my opinion , is what needs to be answered as to this question !!

dan p

 

[feneluscliff]

The Mark of beast? Many have heard the term, but who truly understand it? There are many theories about the mark, and the image *but, are they biblical? In this study we will get a biblical perspective on this issue.
QUOTE]

Hi and the questions that have to be answered are the following !

#1 , Who is the Mark of the Beast given too ?

#2 , Is it given to Gentiles ONLY ?

#3 , Is it given to Jews ONLY !

#4 , What is the TIMELINE for the MARK ?

#5 , What those SEALED during the Great Tribulation , Rev 7:4-8 ?

#6 , Why does Mark 16:18 CONNECT to that book ?


This in my opinion , is what needs to be answered as to this question !!

dan p

#1-3 those who receive the mark will be those who choose Popery above God. It doesn't matter the nationality or one beliefs. Those who receive the mark will be educated of the consequence of receiving the mark by the three angels message of Revelation 14. #4 The timeline is at the door this can take place any minute what we need to do is make sure we are wash in the blood of Jesus Christ and that we have overcome all our sins by his Grace.

 

[DAN P]

#1-3 those who receive the mark will be those who choose Popery above God. It doesn't matter the nationality or one beliefs. Those who receive the mark will be educated of the consequence of receiving the mark by the three angels message of Revelation 14. #4 The timeline is at the door this can take place any minute what we need to do is make sure we are wash in the blood of Jesus Christ and that we have overcome all our sins by his Grace.

Hi and I believe the following to be true !!

#1 , Who has SATAN been trying to eradicate , Jews or Gentiles ?

#2 , It has been Jews !!

#3 , The reason is that because IF Satan kills Jews Satan defeats God as there will be no Jews to inhabit the Millennium !!

#4 , The #666 is for Jews ONLY , during the Great Tribulation !!

#5 Just as the ACCUSER of the BRETHREN is all Jewish !!

dan p

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So LA, I've got the spiritual connection, well... not personally so, although that might be debatable, lol! How are you coming along with the flesh aspect? Who killed righteous Able? Those seeking Jesus' crucifixion were the flesh descendants of Cain, the way I read Jesus' words in Matthew 23:35 KJV and prior.

kayaker

All flesh connections were made of no value after Christs crucifixion.

We read the flesh connections in the OT and then draw spiritual lessons from them. (as we are taught by the Lord to understand)

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Hi and I believe the following to be true !!

#1 , Who has SATAN been trying to eradicate , Jews or Gentiles ?

#2 , It has been Jews !!

#3 , The reason is that because IF Satan kills Jews Satan defeats God as there will be no Jews to inhabit the Millennium !!

#4 , The #666 is for Jews ONLY , during the Great Tribulation !!

#5 Just as the ACCUSER of the BRETHREN is all Jewish !!

dan p

Not true.

The carnal people are given carnal food to chew on.

LA

 

[kayaker]

An interesting and thought provoking post

Cool, LS! I sorta lose interest in the traditional Scriptural challenges. But, I've previously read a number of your posts over the last many months, and appreciate your Scriptural perception. But, lively debate is always inspiring!

Considering the trade of Tubal-cain somehow survived the flood but was not seen again until 1200BC as the iron age but seen as early as 3000BC that dates to within 1000 years of the beginning of man in Biblical years

Very interesting, LS. As I recall, there were caves explored high above the water above some river in China. And, there were canoes with metal implements the predated one of the metal ages. But, such is not my skill set. I suggest Ham's wife, grandmother of Nimrod, king of Babel, was the solitary descendant of Cain who survived the flood. Since there were only three females named between Eve and Sarah, around 19 generations, that peculiar female inclusion strikes me as an outlier compelling further investigation. Lamech's two wives were mentioned, and his daughter, Naamah (Genesis 4:20, 21, 22). I conclude through that mysterious inclusion, that Ham's wife was Lamech's daughter, Naamah. Thus, the disappearance of Tubal-cain's skills in metallurgy could have vanished for a while, if this falls within on your mention.

Then there was Enoch who walked with God before the flood but his reputation carried the same "men of renown" title as the builders of the tower of Babel 750 years after the flood.

Enoch is really an interesting fellow, to say the least! Those "sons of God" who hooked up with the "daughters of men", by Hebrew patrilineal mention (grandsons were "sons", great grandsons were "sons", 1Chronicles 4:1; Luke 3:36, 37, 38), those "sons of God" were the Sethites, and not Nephelim fallen angels as I once considered. I suggest those "daughters of men" were the forbidden female descendants of Cain who was executed at the hand of Lamech (Genesis 4:34 KJV) for breaking parole and procreating. That collusion precipitated the flood resulting in mixed progeny referred to in Genesis 6:4 KJV as "mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

Undoubtedly men of renown were fellows of very high stature and competence. But, I don't necessarily perceive the title, "men of renown" as being unique to the authentic Sethite "sons of God." I suggest the progeny of the "sons of God" (Sethites, of inherent "renown" in my mind) with the Cain's forbidden female progeny ("daughters of men") appear to have regained stature, even though Cain's progeny, in and of themselves, were not of renown being the descendants of a cold-blooded, remorseless murderer.

I have always felt that the flood was prophetic of the outpouring of the spirit on all flesh that despite Pentecost and all of the blessings associated with it IMO has not been global as on all flesh. Plus Joel had to get His prophecy from somewhere and because Saul carried Pentecost blessings seen in his prophesying in the day of his anointing at Pentecost.......... IMO indicates a flood still in waiting

I'm not particularly familiar with your thought provoking notion, LS. Many equate the flood as being analogous to water baptism imparting the Holy Spirit following death (drowning), burial (watery grave), and resurrection yielding a resurrected "born again" experience. I subscribe to the death and burial portion of this symbolic notion of water baptism, but only being analogous to death and burial. I gather baptism with the Holy Spirit (John 14:26 KJV) was a second experience, a type of illumination, that opens His Word as I read in 1Peter 1:23 KJV "born again... by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."

With appreciation for your notion of the ultimate outpouring, a future flood, being the Holy Ghost (if I gather your notion correctly)... I suggest the outpouring will involve the unveiling of His Word authenticating Jesus as the irrefutable, Son of God. And, I perceive this occurring in Matthew 24:29 KJV, Matthew 24:30 KJV.

But then I am no different than a squirrel looking for the same acorn :chuckle:

We'll all eventually crack the acorn when all's said and done, LOL!

kayaker

 

[rougueone]

Hi and I believe the following to be true !!

#1 , Who has SATAN been trying to eradicate , Jews or Gentiles ?

#2 , It has been Jews !!

#3 , The reason is that because IF Satan kills Jews Satan defeats God as there will be no Jews to inhabit the Millennium !!

#4 , The #666 is for Jews ONLY , during the Great Tribulation !!

#5 Just as the ACCUSER of the BRETHREN is all Jewish !!

dan p

I would need to see some ( a small try ) , Scripture for this scenario. I know this subject is difficult for anyone to line up. But this is a first for me.

 

[kayaker]

Gayaker

What up, into yourself?!

You still selling Dr. Frucktenheimer's theology?

What's his take, since you don't have one otherwise, about how Cain was punished? Cain was a remorseless, cold-blooded, premeditating murderer who killed his brother, buried the body, and lied to Almighty God about it (Genesis 4:8, 9, 10). How did Cain not get off scot free being he sired a son and built a city (Genesis 4:16, 17)? That sounds like a reward! Cain obviously didn't live long enough to drown (Genesis 5:7)... so, how was Cain punished?

Don't tell me... Dr. Frucktenbaum got your undivided attention? Then, be constructive, and toss his theology on the table for debate. I wait with baited breath!

kayaker

 

[kayaker]

All flesh connections were made of no value after Christs crucifixion.

Totally agreed, LA. But, one flesh connection, non-Israelite btw (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV; Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9; Romans 9:6, 7; Revelation 2:9, 3:9), had other plans instigating Christ's crucifixion: John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 11:46 KJV, John 11:47 KJV, John 11:48 KJV, John 11:49 KJV, John 11:50 KJV, John 11:51 KJV, John 11:52 KJV, John 11:53 KJV.

We read the flesh connections in the OT and then draw spiritual lessons from them. (as we are taught by the Lord to understand)

Interesting point, LA. Judah was Isaiah's Messianic progenitor (Isaiah 65:9 KJV); but, he hooked up with a "Canaanitess" wife (1Chronicles 2:3; Genesis 38:12 KJV), daughter of the Canaanite, Shuah (Genesis 38:1, 2), who was the 'son' of Abraham's WIFE, Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4), producing a third surviving son, Shelah (Genesis 38:6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 26). That relationship was contrary to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3 corroborated some 1,400 years later by Ezra 9:1, 2 constituting a "great trespass" (Ezra 9:7 KJV).

Judah also sired twin sons, Pharez and Zerah (Genesis 38:29, 30) via his daughter-in-law Tamar, who played the harlot (Genesis 38:24 KJV), in a relationship contrary to Leviticus 18:15, 20:12, 21:7, 9, 13, 14.

I don't suppose you can sense a bit of sibling rivalry between the Shelanites and the Pharzites (and Zarhites, Numbers 26:20) as through whom Messiah would arrive? After all, Judah was married to Shelah's mother. And, Shelah's grandfather Shuah, was a 'son' of Keturah and her husband, Abraham. That was THE quandary of the day, LA. Jesus' mere existence as a descendant of fatherless (Genesis 38:26 KJV) Pharez (Matthew 1:3; Luke 3:33), 'illegitimate' son of Judah and Tamar, 'legitimized' those lost sheep Pharzites and Zarhites from whom Jesus descended, and to whom Jesus was sent. Jesus' existence sorta made 'bastards' (Deuteronomy 23:2 KJV, aka "mamzerim", progeny of a forbidden marriage) out of those Shelanites, "Abraham's seed" (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV) who were not "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Well, Moses didn't think Abraham's progeny via Keturah were Abraham's 'sons' either (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4)[corrected from Genesis 38:1, 2, 3, 4].

Those circumcised, non-Israelite (John 8:33 KJV) impostor Pharisee priests didn't just not believe Jesus was not Messiah, LA. They Scripturally refuted the notion. Jesus wasn't a descendant of Judah and his Canaanitess wife like they were (John 8:41 KJV). So, sure, LA... there most certainly is a "flesh connection in the OT" that provides "spiritual lessons", as you suggest.

That was what John the Baptist was preaching, about Jesus being Isaiah's prophesied Messiah as a descendant of Judah (Matthew 3:1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Does the aforementioned lesson in ancestry sound familiar to you, LA? Probably not, respectfully. 'Churches' and denominations are too busy legitimizing themselves and their doctrine in Scripture, to dwell in the weightier matter of Scripture. But, that was the quandary of the day, LA: Would Messiah be a descendant of Judah and Tamar? Or, would Messiah be be a descendant of Judah and his Canaanitess wife, an endless genealogy, btw?

kayaker

 

[rougueone]

I can't comment on the "Seal of God". But here is a thread I posted awahile back...
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109858&highlight=Are+we+ready


And I saw a beast ( A Government), coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns ( Empires--Governments) , on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon ( SATAN ), gave the beast-"Government" his power and his throne and great authority.

One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. ( This may be a former Government that was gone but is now revived or back in action ). This is important as we continue: To make a global seal=Mark to this paticular Government means it had or does agin have major significance.

And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth that they should make an image to the Government-beast, which had the wound by a sword and lived. Is this an occurance like an attack on a Nation and it survived...A Nation/Church...A former culture that was once powerful?

At the chapter's end to "calculate the number of the beast, for it is a man's number . . . 666" ....Which I see as centered simply on economics as no one can conduct any business without this Government issued number. Save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name.

"for it is the number of a man". A human number. I see this as it is, being my number, your number, the number of man. Our S. Security number is critical to getting a job. No number no job. No job no money. No money we cannot buy anything. Nor sell any thing as we have nothing to buy we cannot sell.

With caution I state this, being our S. Security number--and if it is not, it will be as the Government already has our number assigned to us as do many Nations using our system. It may not be the " MARK" yet. But it surely will be. Note the three variables here, Save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name. Follow please:...The S. Security card has the Name" U.S.A. ...the number, 000-00-0000 and the card itself is the seal/number. Having the card is the seal. Sealed with and aligned with the Government. Or possibly in short future, a smart card, or holographic card with say our Iris and thumb print on the card. Or it may be an implant.

And the number will not be "FORCED" upon anyone. NO !!!!

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads,

CAUSES The CAUSE? My children, my home, my job, how will we survive ? ET......

I believe this will be the test of all test and it is centered on Christians as well. We will find out just who is in Jesus and who is not.

I'll stop here and see if any feedback occurs.

How soon? I do not know. but it is obviously financial. China has established it's own Central Bank. And almost 100 Nations are signed up. On Oct. 20 the IMF is expected to announce a reserve currency alternative to the U.S. dollar. Were we ready for 9-11? No.

The Indian Government has established an Authority called the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI) to issue a Unique Identification Number to all citizens and residents of India. This Authority is headed by Nandan Nilekani, former CEO of Infosys. This Authority will issue the first unique number within 12 to 18 months of its creation.

The AADHAR project , since this Thread has proven very effective. will give each Indian citizen a unique 12 digit identification number, along with recording their bio metrics such as iris scan and all TEN fingerprints. The first Aadhaar number was launched in Maharashtra in the village of Tembli, on 29 September 2010.So far up to 2014 720 million Aadhar Numbers have been issued. Further it is expected to cross 1 billion PEOPLE mark by end of 2015 .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ication_number

Maybe sooner than we all thought. ?

I am always open to Holy correction. thanks for reading.

 

[rougueone]

Totally agreed, LA. But, one flesh connection, non-Israelite btw (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV; Luke 2:7, 8, 9; Romans 9:6, 7; Revelation 2:9, 3:9), had other plans instigating Christ's crucifixion: John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 11:46 KJV, John 11:47 KJV, John 11:48 KJV, John 11:49 KJV, John 11:50 KJV, John 11:51 KJV, John 11:52 KJV, John 11:53 KJV.



Interesting point, LA. Judah was Isaiah's Messianic progenitor (Isaiah 65:9 KJV); but, he hooked up with a "Canaanitess" wife (1Chronicles 2:3; Genesis 38:11 KJV), daughter of the Canaanite, Shuah (Genesis 38:1, 2), who was the 'son' of Abraham's WIFE, Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4), producing a third surviving son, Shelah (Genesis 38:6, 7, 8, 9, 10). That relationship was contrary to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3 corroborated some 1,400 years later by Ezra 9:1, 2 constituting a "great trespass" (Ezra 9:7 KJV).

Judah also sired twin sons, Pharez and Zerah (Genesis 38:29, 30) via his daughter-in-law Tamar, who played the harlot (Genesis 38:24 KJV), in a relationship contrary to Leviticus 18:15, 20:12, 21:7, 9, 13, 14.

I don't suppose you can sense a bit of sibling rivalry between the Shelanites and the Pharzites (and Zarhites, Numbers 26:20) as through whom Messiah would arrive? After all, Judah was married to Shelah's mother. And, Shelah's grandfather Shuah, was a 'son' of Keturah and her husband, Abraham. That was THE quandary of the day, LA. Jesus' mere existence as a descendant of fatherless (Genesis 38:26 KJV) Pharez (Matthew 1:3; Luke 3:33), 'illegitimate' son of Judah and Tamar, 'legitimized' those lost sheep Pharzites and Zarhites from whom Jesus descended, and to whom Jesus was sent. Jesus' existence sorta made 'bastards' (Deuteronomy 23:2 KJV, aka "mamzerim", progeny of a forbidden marriage) out of those Shelanites, "Abraham's seed" (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV) who were not "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Well, Moses didn't think Abraham's progeny via Keturah were Abraham's 'sons' either (Genesis 38:1, 2, 3, 4).

Those circumcised, non-Israelite (John 8:33 KJV) impostor Pharisee priests didn't just not believe Jesus was not Messiah, LA. They Scripturally refuted the notion. Jesus wasn't a descendant of Judah and his Canaanitess wife like they were (John 8:41 KJV). So, sure, LA... there most certainly is a "flesh connection in the OT" that provides "spiritual lessons", as you suggest.

That was what John the Baptist was preaching, about Jesus being Isaiah's prophesied Messiah as a descendant of Judah (Matthew 3:1, 2, 3, 4, 5).



Does the aforementioned lesson in ancestry sound familiar to you, LA? Probably not, respectfully. 'Churches' and denominations are too busy legitimizing themselves and their doctrine in Scripture, to dwell in the weightier matter of Scripture. But, that was the quandary of the day, LA: Would Messiah be a descendant of Judah and Tamar? Or, would Messiah be be a descendant of Judah and his Canaanitess wife, an endless genealogy, btw?

kayaker

Incredibly dialed in Kayaker.

 

[kayaker]

Incredibly dialed in Kayaker.

You are entirely generous, RO. I'm just a blind wild hawg rooting around for acorns. I'm not here brandishing my 'church' or denomination. A great deal of what I present on TOL, I learned being thereby inspired honing the Scriptures by rattling sabers with folk vastly more astute in Scripture than I. I've been here for a little over 2.5 years, and early on I gained the greatest respect for those posters who Scripturally corroborated their positions. And, TOL is set up just for that kind of debate and discussion. I do get corrected, had my face wiped with my soiled knickers more than a couple times, LOL!

I did have to go back and tidy-up some scriptural coordinates, and extend one or two cites another verse or two. I've studied and argued the above post quite extensively with very respectable posters on TOL, and among my couple close associates who aren't advocating church or denomination doctrine (very polarizing, btw).

Your request for Scriptural support from feneluscliff is appreciated. Opinions are one thing, and they're cool. Opinions corroborated with Scripture makes one stand above the bickering crowds, and requires that our perception of said rendering be tendered for scrutiny. There are some extremely astute folk on TOL! Well, all I can say is I'll get at least one good slug in, truth smacking, LOL!

Keep the faith...

kayaker