ECT MAD fails on the gift and age of the Spirit

Interplanner

New member
The prophets pretty much uniformly said that when Messiah comes, the Spirit of God would be active on earth--"poured out on all flesh." Not only did this contrast to isolated or incidental cases from the OT, it was also placed on a condition: that the person would have had the righteousness of God/Christ imputed to them. When Paul uses David as an example of imputation in Rom 4, part of the reason for that illustration is to show a person upon whom the Spirit of God came and expressed things, in spite of the failures of the person.

This was not to facilitate an existential 'holiness' or 'Pentecostal' experience. It was to expedite the message of the Gospel to the nations, and--more subtly--to help Jews see proof that this actually was the age spoken of by the prophets so that they would not follow the machinations of the 'son of perdition'--a figure who would deceive Israel into a rebellion that would ruin the country. That person was due to arrive pretty much at the same time as Messiah.

Of course the Spirit did come because the Gospel was being explained to the nation with the intention of it going to the other nations. The Acts 2 moment was the kick start of that, and any other time we see the manifestation of the Spirit as tongues it is partly to demonstrate to Jews in the audience that the age is here. Of course, the Gospel is put forth.

So when we read the particular question in Gal 3 about that group and the Gospel, the Spirit and the Law, we are actually seeing the question: what gave you the idea that closer adherence to the law was going to help further the Gospel through another unusual manifestation of the Spirit? He's not trying to get them to be charismatic, although the manifestation might seem that way. He is opposed to Judaizers: "They want to alienate you from us, so that you are zealous for them." And of course the masterful play on words: "Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?"

So much for mid-staged gospels and all that amateur thinking. It is true that the Spirit could not be given until the Son was glorified, but that giving of the Spirit started with the 'seminar' between the resurrection and the day of Pentecost. Even though they had seen all the events from the front row, the disciples were exactly like Paul: they thought of them 'kata sarka' and needed to see that all was fulfilled in Christ. It has to be taught and the concepts have to be built on each other so that when God makes his Spirit work, it is all ready to go and is properly explained as in Acts 2. That was the same Gospel as Paul's, with an emphasis on the Spirit at work as envisioned by the prophets.

That is why the question about the theocracy in Israel was such a loser. It was completely off target, as can be seen from the rest of Acts. Anyone who can not see that the mission of the Gospel entirely supplants the restored Israel question in Acts simply does not know what they are looking at.

Finally, it should be clear that the idea of the Spirit's work for an individual, private, ecstatic experience should be out of the question. There is nothing of the sort in the NT until the isolated case of Corinthians (which mimicked a nearby pagan ritual) and which Paul minimized, and considered non-communicative, and directed back to the Isaiah passage about the Cornerstone and about how actual tongues would prove to Jews that the Messiah's mission age was here.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi,

Speaking in tongues is only one of the gifts, but it is noteworthy that while some have other of the gifts, those who speak against tongues have no other of the gifts either,

and ,

Those who do have other gifts than tongues, do not speak against the gift of tongues.

LA
 

Interplanner

New member
Hi,

Speaking in tongues is only one of the gifts, but it is noteworthy that while some have other of the gifts, those who speak against tongues have no other of the gifts either,

and ,

Those who do have other gifts than tongues, do not speak against the gift of tongues.

LA


What makes you say either of those things? Paul 'spoke against' what was going on in Corinth because it didn't communicate to others and wasn't what Isaiah was talking about. He tolerated it but not by much.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
What makes you say either of those things? Paul 'spoke against' what was going on in Corinth because it didn't communicate to others and wasn't what Isaiah was talking about. He tolerated it but not by much.

It is a fact that those who are gifted in some way by the Spirit, do not speak against the other gifts or those who have them. That is on account of having a gift

LA
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
The prophets pretty much uniformly said that when Messiah comes, the Spirit of God would be active on earth--"poured out on all flesh." Not only did this contrast to isolated or incidental cases from the OT, it was also placed on a condition: that the person would have had the righteousness of God/Christ imputed to them. When Paul uses David as an example of imputation in Rom 4, part of the reason for that illustration is to show a person upon whom the Spirit of God came and expressed things, in spite of the failures of the person.

This was not to facilitate an existential 'holiness' or 'Pentecostal' experience. It was to expedite the message of the Gospel to the nations, and--more subtly--to help Jews see proof that this actually was the age spoken of by the prophets so that they would not follow the machinations of the 'son of perdition'--a figure who would deceive Israel into a rebellion that would ruin the country. That person was due to arrive pretty much at the same time as Messiah.

Of course the Spirit did come because the Gospel was being explained to the nation with the intention of it going to the other nations. The Acts 2 moment was the kick start of that, and any other time we see the manifestation of the Spirit as tongues it is partly to demonstrate to Jews in the audience that the age is here. Of course, the Gospel is put forth.

So when we read the particular question in Gal 3 about that group and the Gospel, the Spirit and the Law, we are actually seeing the question: what gave you the idea that closer adherence to the law was going to help further the Gospel through another unusual manifestation of the Spirit? He's not trying to get them to be charismatic, although the manifestation might seem that way. He is opposed to Judaizers: "They want to alienate you from us, so that you are zealous for them." And of course the masterful play on words: "Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?"

So much for mid-staged gospels and all that amateur thinking. It is true that the Spirit could not be given until the Son was glorified, but that giving of the Spirit started with the 'seminar' between the resurrection and the day of Pentecost. Even though they had seen all the events from the front row, the disciples were exactly like Paul: they thought of them 'kata sarka' and needed to see that all was fulfilled in Christ. It has to be taught and the concepts have to be built on each other so that when God makes his Spirit work, it is all ready to go and is properly explained as in Acts 2. That was the same Gospel as Paul's, with an emphasis on the Spirit at work as envisioned by the prophets.

That is why the question about the theocracy in Israel was such a loser. It was completely off target, as can be seen from the rest of Acts. Anyone who can not see that the mission of the Gospel entirely supplants the restored Israel question in Acts simply does not know what they are looking at.

Finally, it should be clear that the idea of the Spirit's work for an individual, private, ecstatic experience should be out of the question. There is nothing of the sort in the NT until the isolated case of Corinthians (which mimicked a nearby pagan ritual) and which Paul minimized, and considered non-communicative, and directed back to the Isaiah passage about the Cornerstone and about how actual tongues would prove to Jews that the Messiah's mission age was here.

It would be nice if you spoke in English. You know, the kind that everybody understands. It's kinda nice that you know what you're trying to say, however, it would be nice if your fellow posters were let in on your thoughts.
 

Interplanner

New member
It would be nice if you spoke in English. You know, the kind that everybody understands. It's kinda nice that you know what you're trying to say, however, it would be nice if your fellow posters were let in on your thoughts.


OK, so start with the first line. Do you know how many times the 'pouring out of the Spirit' is a feature of the coming age when Messiah/Servant/New Covenant/Arm of the Lord/Day of the Lord/Righteousness of God arrives?
 

Interplanner

New member
It would be nice if you spoke in English. You know, the kind that everybody understands. It's kinda nice that you know what you're trying to say, however, it would be nice if your fellow posters were let in on your thoughts.


I'm simply putting 2s and 2s together which otherwise become fragmented from each other and create fragmentation of knowledge and fellowship among Christians. To them it becomes a universe of 'this has nothing to do with that' when in fact it is all tightly related. Tongues, Messiah, mission, the arm of the Lord, the new covenant, etc, etc.
 

DAN P

New member
OK, so start with the first line. Do you know how many times the 'pouring out of the Spirit' is a feature of the coming age when Messiah/Servant/New Covenant/Arm of the Lord/Day of the Lord/Righteousness of God arrives?


Hi and it happened 2 times , once at PENTECOST which is the NEAR VIEW !!

But Israel rejected their MESSIAH and Israel was set aside !!

The FAR VIEW is during the First 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation as recorded in Mark 16:15-18 !!

dan p
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
I'm simply putting 2s and 2s together which otherwise become fragmented from each other and create fragmentation of knowledge and fellowship among Christians. To them it becomes a universe of 'this has nothing to do with that' when in fact it is all tightly related. Tongues, Messiah, mission, the arm of the Lord, the new covenant, etc, etc.

There you go again. Is English your second language? Is that the problem? You need to learn how to articulate your thoughts into words that make sense. Understand? Probably not.
 

Interplanner

New member
Hi and it happened 2 times , once at PENTECOST which is the NEAR VIEW !!

But Israel rejected their MESSIAH and Israel was set aside !!

The FAR VIEW is during the First 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation as recorded in Mark 16:15-18 !!

dan p


The Mark 16 thingie is ridiculous, but I know why you think there are two parts to the Spirit. But you'd have to prove to me that there is a separate episode for Israel. I don't know why and don't know any solid NT passage that goes there.
 

Interplanner

New member
Interplanetary seems to have devised his own way of communication. I rarely am able to decipher his posts. It makes it difficult, if not impossible to have a discussion with him.


It helps if you ask questions. It helps if you answer the ones I give to help you. What do think of the 'pouring out of the Spirit' in the prophets?

No, I'm not a 2nd hand English speaker. I have a handle on a few other languages; I have a master's in Christian research; I have been a TA for intro to Greek at a Bible college. If it sounds complex, I hope it simply because it is like the letter to Hebrews (concise and densely compacted), not because it reads like the following: e;wkn4nv [-[ 4oofj34 v-fijmnmnnm
 

DAN P

New member
The Mark 16 thingie is ridiculous, but I know why you think there are two parts to the Spirit. But you'd have to prove to me that there is a separate episode for Israel. I don't know why and don't know any solid NT passage that goes there.


Hi and RIDICUULOUS YOU says and I have shown in Isa 6:1-13 and in Luck 13:6-9 and there are many more passages that Israel has been set aside and habeen set aside for more than 2000 years >

So read Rom 11:25 and when the Body of Christ is taken from the earth , THEN Rom 11:26 kicks in and THEN Israel will be saved , SO STOP BEING RIDICULOUS !!

You must have been shedltered not to have heard of the NEAR and FAR VIEWS and these are not the only GAPS in the bible !!

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
It helps if you ask questions. It helps if you answer the ones I give to help you. What do think of the 'pouring out of the Spirit' in the prophets?

No, I'm not a 2nd hand English speaker. I have a handle on a few other languages; I have a master's in Christian research; I have been a TA for intro to Greek at a Bible college. If it sounds complex, I hope it simply because it is like the letter to Hebrews (concise and densely compacted), not because it reads like the following: e;wkn4nv [-[ 4oofj34 v-fijmnmnnm

To be fair; I ALWAYS understand you just fine, and have often even explained some of your words to others.

Other than your obviously higher intelect, education and thus, much wider ranging vocabulary, it is not you, it is some others.

You are sharp in your kinds of distinctions; I'll give you that.

Nevertheless, I still find I strongly disagree with where you are coming from - more often than not :chuckle:

Par for the course in all walks of life, bro.
 

TweetyBird

New member
Hi and it happened 2 times , once at PENTECOST which is the NEAR VIEW !!

But Israel rejected their MESSIAH and Israel was set aside !!

The FAR VIEW is during the First 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation as recorded in Mark 16:15-18 !!

dan p

The Holy Spirit was poured out several times before Pentecost, including in the OT.
 

TweetyBird

New member
Hi and RIDICUULOUS YOU says and I have shown in Isa 6:1-13 and in Luck 13:6-9 and there are many more passages that Israel has been set aside and habeen set aside for more than 2000 years >

So read Rom 11:25 and when the Body of Christ is taken from the earth , THEN Rom 11:26 kicks in and THEN Israel will be saved , SO STOP BEING RIDICULOUS !!

Where does Rom 11:25 state that the body of Christ is taken from the earth?

You are aware that only a remnant of Israel is saved - as prophesied?
 
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