ECT "Lordship 'Salvation'"-perverting the gospel of Christ

Derf

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An agnostic told me that the truth cannot be known. Is that a true statement?

Yes, or no.

An agnostic means willfully ignorant.

It merely explains the Agnostic.
If you read jw's question, "that" is somewhat ambiguous. The best a reader can tell from the question is that the statement being asked about is the previous sentence, which says, "An agnostic told me that the truth cannot be known" rather than "the truth cannot be known". The truth of the former statement is not available to us here on TOL, as we don't know whether any agnostics have ever talked to jw before, or whether they said anything about truth and its ability to be known.

The word "agnostic" is therefore not a player in the question, which asks about the factuality of an event that happened to jw. It could just as easily read "My grandmother told me that the truth cannot be known." And we would have just as much information about the truth value of the statement.
 

Cross Reference

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If you read jw's question, "that" is somewhat ambiguous. The best a reader can tell from the question is that the statement being asked about is the previous sentence, which says, "An agnostic told me that the truth cannot be known" rather than "the truth cannot be known". The truth of the former statement is not available to us here on TOL, as we don't know whether any agnostics have ever talked to jw before, or whether they said anything about truth and its ability to be known.

The word "agnostic" is therefore not a player in the question, which asks about the factuality of an event that happened to jw. It could just as easily read "My grandmother told me that the truth cannot be known." And we would have just as much information about the truth value of the statement.

Which merely means the wilfully ignorant "agnostic" can lend nothing objective to any discussion where objectivity is called for.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Which merely means the wilfully ignorant "agnostic" can lend nothing objective to any discussion where objectivity is called for.

I think I'm suggesting that jw isn't lending anything objective to the discussion--maybe he can offer a reason for that.
 

Cross Reference

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Get out some; there is a whole new world out there just chockful of people who were raised outside of any major "faith" to begin with.

You and your forever consistent vacuum. :doh:
But it doesn't change the definition, does it? Perhaps you see yourself and feel exposed. Thus your attitude toward most things Jesus Christ.
 

serpentdove

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Ac 2:38
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See:

What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?
 

serpentdove

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I get infractions when I post in this thread. It's been closed by the way (not by me
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).

I'd tag you :chuckle: but I've been banned from taggin as well. :banned:

Let me just answer here because Lordship is the topic anyway.

Musterion: ...How does one who has been judicially declared dead in Christ, and so is reckoned as dead to sin and to the condemning Law, get judged?

Musterion is dead? Does he ever get up like a zombie? :Shimei: 1 Co 15:31, 1 Jn 1:9
 

serpentdove

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For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I [Rom. 7:15].
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"Here we have the conflict of two natures, the old nature and the new nature. There are definitely two “I’s” in this section. The first “I” is the old nature as he asserts his rights. “For what I would” is what the new nature wants to do. “That do I not”—the old nature rebels and won’t do it. “But what I hate”—the new nature hates it—“that do I”; the old nature goes right ahead and does it.

Do you have the experience of this struggle in your Christian life? Do you do something, then hate yourself because you have done it? And you cry out, “God, oh, how I’ve failed You!” I think every child of God has this experience. Paul is speaking of his own experience in this section. Apparently there were three periods in his life. First he was a proud Pharisee under the Mosaic system, kidding himself by bringing the sacrifices and doing other things which he thought would make him right with God. But the Law was condemning him all the while. Then the second period began when he met Christ on the Damascus Road. This proud young Pharisee turned to Christ as his Savior, but he still felt he could live the Christian life. His new nature said, “I am now going to live for God!” But he failed and was in the arena of struggle and failure for a time. I do not know how long it lasted—probably it was not long. There came a day when there was victory, but Paul did not win it; Christ did. Paul learned that it was a mattter of yielding, presenting himself and letting the Spirit of God live the Christian life through him." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Epistles (Romans 1-8) (electronic ed., Vol. 42, pp. 130–131). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
 

serpentdove

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The Word of Faith movement says you pray once :freak: and then never again (2 Pe 2:1). :dizzy:

Parable of the persistent friend:

And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs.

“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Lk 11:5-10
 

Nameless.In.Grace

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The Biblical order is sonship/justification, then service/sanctification. Those who reverse this biblical order are putting the proverbial "horse before the cart," and are confusing service to God the Father as sons, with service to become adopted sons. Those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus", despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ giving His life for us, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything, make this deadly error. The LORD God needs nothing from us(Acts 17:25 KJV, Job 35:7 KJV, Haggai 2:8 KJV) and is not, and will not, condition/make "giving our life to Him"(service) the basis for His acceptance of us. Again, The LORD God has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ's voluntary sacrificial offering of His life, not ours, as proptiatory(satisfactory). All service is a priviledged responsibility given as a gift to those who have been declared adopted sons by faith in the finished and faithful work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Holy means "sanctified"=set aside for God's purpose. But God only uses those instruments that are His sons, and "saints" describes those who are already justified=His="in Christ". And the LORD God would have us know this biblical order in Corithians-Paul calls the Corinthians, the most carnal, dirty, lustful group of believer what? Saints-not sinners.

Consider the book of Galatians, which is a stern, severe, corrective, and solemn message-there is no word of commendation, praise or thanksgiving. Paul's "heart" is laid bare here as the letters are peppered with deep emotion and strong feeling. This is his "fighting epistle"-he is on a war path, with no tolerance for legalism! It is the declaration of freedom from all types of legalism. While Romans was from Paul's "head" with its lawyerly, systematic treatise on justification by faith, and faith alone, Galatians was from his heart. It is the boldest, strongest declaration and defense(as is this brilliant, humble post) of the doctrine of justification by faith in and out of the scriptures, and, as such, is God's polemic on behalf of the most vital truth of the Christian truth against any attack. That is, not only is a sinner saved by grace through faith(not commitment), but the saved sinner lives by grace(sanctification=commitment=the Christian "walk"). But we must not confuse justification(the declaration of righteousness) with sanctification! Yes, we are saved from the penalty of sin(justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presense of sin(glorification), but these are not equivalent biblical doctrines, and people are perverting the gospel of Christ by putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", i. e., they are placing sanctification=commitment=give your life to Christ in the wrong biblical order-as a "prerequisite" to justification, or as the means to justification. No, No, No!! Interestingly enough, Paul had nothing but condemnation for the Galatians, and yet, for the Corinthians, as mentioned, the most carnal bunch of Christians, who were engaged in adultery, drunkeness, gluttony.....he had words of encouragement, and never questioned their justification, as witnessed by his continual reference to them as "in Christ", and as saints. This should be an object lesson for us all, and should cause each of us to cry with joy and praise for the truly amazing grace bestowed upon e! ach one of us wherby we are made "...accepted in the beloved...."(Ephesians 1:6 KJV) by this great God of ours(Psalms 145:3 KJV). And this should be our motivation to "...walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called...."(Ephesians 4:1 KJV), "..walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God...."(Colossians 1:10 KJV), "...walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory...."(1 Thessalonians 2:12 KJV), "..walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more...."(1 Thessalonians 4:1 KJV),."...as children of light...."(Ephesians 5:8 KJV), which is our "....reasonable service...."(Romans 12:1 KJV) as sons.

No one would disagree with anyone who would say we should "live a holy life before God"(sanctification), but not as a basis for our acceptance by Him-not as our basis for justification! We live a holy life because we are sons, because we are justified, because we are saved, not to be adopted sons not to be justified, not to be saved..

No one has,or can, truly(and this is a subjective criteria)repent(ed) of all their sins", no one has, or can "surrender 100% to the Lordship of Jesus Christ"(and this is a subjective criteria), no one has "put away the things or our previous life and life style", no one has, or can, "live(d) for God 100%", for all have been pronounced "guilty"(Romans 3:19 KJV), and "...come short of the glory of God...."(Romans 3:23 KJV), in not only what we do, but what we do not do, and how we think. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being". Nor will the LORD God accept any offering these acts of service as a basis for justification, but will only accept the death by blood offering of the Lord Jesus Christ's spotless life, not ours, and his resurrection, as a basis for our justification as sons.

Phrases such as "giving one's life, heart("commitment") is not the proper object of faith. Again, salvation has nothing to do with "giving" God anything! Salvation is not my gift to God. Rather, it is the issue of receiving a gift from God. The issue in salvation is not what we give to Him, but what He gives to us-eternal life. The issue is not giving your life to Christ-it is Christ giving up His life as an atoning sacrifice for you. Salvation has nothing to do with "giving up your life", "surrendering your life".........-It was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave up His life and made full surrender when he yielded His life at Calvary. Again, when a lost person is told to "surrender his life, give his life to Jesus, commit his life to Jesus.........", this wrongly presumes that a person has something worthy to give(whether that is time, money, service......), and confuses service/sanctification with salvation. It requires a "commitment" to serve Christ "up front" before salvation, and it presents a work-based performance system as a basis for acceptance by God.

Phrases such as "Give your heart to Jesus" may sound very romantic, but we are not saved by "falling in love with Jesus"-we are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work at Calvary and His resurrection 3 days later. Giving one's heart, life(commitment) is an activity of service to the Lord, and and, as such, service and dedication is something the LORD appeals to believers to do(Romans 12:1-2 KJV, for eg.). But this is service from those who have become his own. The biblical order is sonship, then service. Service, then sonship is a work-based performance system, as typified by the Roman Catholic Organization, and "perverts the gospel of Christ"(Gal. 1:7 KJV). Statements such as " ...I believe salvation is a journey; it is not a moment in time" reflect this mindset and false doctrine. Sanctification is a journey, but justification is not. Justification is a "moment in time" declaration of righteousness, based on the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Practically every false doctrine is a result of "getting things out of order", as I mentioned previously. The divine order is justification, then change/sanctification, not change/sanctification and then salvation. Notice in Romans 4:5 KJV, God "justifieth the ungodly,"/Romans 5:6 KJV, "Christ died for the ungodly"-no "fixing yourself up first", no "stop sinning first".......... Notice in Romans 5:8 KJV, "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". Again, those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus, commit your life to Jesus"(despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ giving His life for us, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything!) make this deadly error-confusing sancification with justification.

Many error by thinking that "stop sinning"=acts of commission "solves the sin issue". You could "stop sinning" all the rest of your life(which is a self righteous pride that no one can do), and that would not allow you in the presence of our Holy God. Sin is not just wrong acts, it is "not doing what you are suppose to do", and it is "wrong thinking"-thus,"all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". The LORD God has pronounced all of us guilty, with no exceptions(read Romans again)-guilty of not only what we do, but guilty of falling short of his absolute standard, The Lord Jesus Christ="who he wants us to be." The biblical requirement is not just forgiveness=a pardon for an offence, but justification=a legal declaration of righteousness, and includes not just "stop doing what is wrong", but also doing everything that is right, in thought, word, and deed(had any evil thoughts today? I have). And this is "the righteousness of God in him"(2 Cor. 5:21 KJV), the "righteousness of God"(Romans 1:17 KJV), " righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Romans 3:22 KJV), "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"(Philippians 3:9 KJV).



Who ever heard of "hiring your boss?"=Lordship Salvation


The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord, in the sense here of master, owner, controller, "boss", not because we "make" him such, but because God the Father gave him this position:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God(my emphasis) hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ(my emphasis)." Acts 2:36

Whether we believe it or not, does not change this fact.

Kind of speechless!

This OP is Spiritual Money!

Well done Good and Faithful steward! Though only God is GoOD, your words are words that grow the Rich Man's investment.


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Nameless.In.Grace

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Thanks, D. I would say that my post was brilliant, but I'm too humble, to assert that this brilliant post is brilliant.

It brilliantly glories the only true Servant King, worthy of the title King of Kings and Lord of lords.

Explosive Gospel power Rating:

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Sent from my iPad using TOL Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
 

patrick jane

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Kind of speechless!

This OP is Spiritual Money!

Well done Good and Faithful steward! Though only God is GoOD, your words are words that grow the Rich Man's investment.


Sent from my iPad using TOL Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

You have now been blessed by the teachings of saint john w the great and most humble. This is just a taste of the endless exegesis he is capable of. There's nobody better on TOL. You should read all his OPs
 

serpentdove

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[
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What sin? :freak:] Confess your faults [Jas 5:16a].


Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may he healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much [James 5:15–16].


""And the prayer of faith shall save the sick.” I believe you are to call on God’s people to pray for you when you are sick.

“Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.” We are to confess our sins to God but our faults one to another. If I have injured you, then I ought to confess that to you. But I will not confess my sins to you, and I do not want you confessing your sins to me. You are to confess that to the Lord. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). I cannot forgive sins; neither can any clergyman forgive sins—only God can do that." McGee, J. V. (1997). Thru the Bible commentary (electronic ed., Vol. 5, p. 670). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
 

serpentdove

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[What sin? :freak: 1 Jn 1:8]

Christians must repent (1 Jn 1:9) :listen: not
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once. :dizzy:

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling (2 Th 1:11a).
 

Lazy afternoon

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Kind of speechless!

This OP is Spiritual Money!

Well done Good and Faithful steward! Though only God is GoOD, your words are words that grow the Rich Man's investment.


Sent from my iPad using TOL Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

Do not be fooled by such doctrine.

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
LA
 

Nameless.In.Grace

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Do not be fooled by such doctrine.

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
LA
LA,

The work is to believe in the one He sent.

The obedience is our unaffordable debt of Love to God, Mankind and ourselves.

That's the sweet message of Gospel yummyness.

The Spirit does the rest!

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