Looking at 2 Pet 2:1

DAN P

Well-known member
My friend: answer no to universalist and unitarian! I do however believe the koine ta pante is the foundation for the "then" of your quote.

Ta pante= the all

"Through Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."

Please note:

Not pante: ta pante.
AND , check it again , PANTA means ALLTHINGS .

TA PANTA means THE ALL THINGS and means a specific all thing , and speaks about good things and Col 1:17 uses both PANTA and TA PANTA ., and have a booklet that shows 44 verse of there use .

dan p
 

marke

Well-known member
Amen Brother to all 3 parts ! System has prevented me from replying to each part separately; can only "like".
Don't be fooled by bad interpretations of the Bible. God did not deliberately make billions of humans incapable of coming to Him for the forgiveness of sins, that is just something stupid men have come up with because they would not go to God for wisdom on His terms.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Don't be fooled by bad interpretations of the Bible. God did not deliberately make billions of humans incapable of coming to Him for the forgiveness of sins, that is just something stupid men have come up with because they would not go to God for wisdom on His terms.
False.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Really? You think God has great pleasure in making billions of humans for one purpose and that is to burn in hell forever in order to make Him look good and bring Him happiness?
Dan. 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
 

marke

Well-known member
Dan. 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Exactly. If God decides to offer Jesus as a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and not just the elect then who do Calvinists think they are to try to keep God from doing that?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
"Second, it is also ambiguous whether Peter is referring to God the Father or Christ as the Lord who bought them when he says that they will even deny ‘…the Lord that bought them…’ In fact, it is likely that ‘the Lord’ Whom Peter says had bought these false teachers is a reference to God the Father, and not Christ the Son. This is because in the following verses God the Father is spoken of and, even more significantly, the Greek word for Lord used here is NEVER USED OF CHRIST, but ONLY OF THE FATHER. ‘…even denying the Lord that bought them’; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the Father; for the word (kuriov) is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but (despothv) ; and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants, and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the Father, whenever applied to a Divine person, as in (see Lk. 2:29; Acts 4:24; 2 Tim. 2:21; Rev. 6:10) and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jude 1:4: ‘For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ’, where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by Whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense: ‘…feed the Church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood’ (Acts 20:28; see also 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18,19; Rev. 5:9), whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny Him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word ‘bought’ regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord; both by words, delivering out such tenets as are derogatory to the glory of the Divine perfections, and which deny one or other of them, and of His purposes, providence, promises, and truths; and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work; that they should act this part against the Lord Who had made them, and upheld them in their beings and took care of them in His providence, and had followed them with goodness and mercy all the days of their lives; just as Moses aggravates the ingratitude of the Jews in Deuteronomy 32:6 from whence this phrase is borrowed, and to which it manifestly refers: ‘Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not He thy Father that hath bought thee? hath He not made thee, and established thee?’, nor is this the only place the apostle refers to in this chapter, (see also 2 Pet. 2:12,13 compared with Deuteronomy 32:5, and it is to be observed, that the persons he writes to were Jews, who were called the people the Lord had redeemed and purchased, (see Exodus 15:13,16), and so were the first false teachers that rose up among them; and therefore this phrase is very applicable to them. If Peter is saying that God the Father bought these false teachers, it cannot be a reference to the atonement. Why? Because the atonement was made by Jesus, not the Father. Thus, here is another reason that it is likely that the purchase spoken of here is not a reference to the death of Christ.
 

marke

Well-known member
Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not just the sins of the elect.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus bought the field (the world) so as to take possession of the treasure in the field (the elect.)

Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Jesus died for the sins of the wicked, including false teachers, just as He died for the elect.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Exactly. If God decides to offer Jesus as a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and not just the elect then who do Calvinists think they are to try to keep God from doing that?

According to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph. 3:11, He has already determined that many shall have their part in the second death to pay the price for their own sins:

Rev. 21:7-8:

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2 Pet. 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
 

beloved57

Well-known member

Agorazo in 2 Peter 2:1​

by Jim Ellis​


I was stimulated to do a little study on the meaning of the Greek word agorazo (translated bought) in 2 Peter 2:1 by a chapter in Tom Wells recent book, A Price for a People[1]. The purpose of Wells book is to review and comment on some issues regarding the nature and extent of Christ's atonement, a subject certainly worth the effort in this day and age. In the process he explains and defends the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement as a truly biblical doctrine. He does a fine job of this and I highly recommend the book to those who are interested or may have trouble with this particular doctrine. It is one of the more readable treatments of the subject.

Anyway, in the process of his discussion he addresses some of the problem texts and naturally comes to 2 Peter 2:1 which admittedly has been somewhat of an enigma for many of us who hold to a limited atonement. There he notes how the word agorazo is misused by some theologians, especially those who use 2 Peter 2:1 to argue against limited atonement[2]. When it comes to the interpretation of this verse, they apparently give agorazo a depreciated meaning in order to support their case for a universal atonement as opposed to a limited atonement. Before we go on, however, let's pause for a moment to recall the verse. It reads,

But false teachers also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought (agorazo) them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Pet. 2:1.
The argument of those who hold to a universal atonement goes something like this: "It cannot be avoided that Peter is here saying, in words unmistakably clear, Christ paid the ransom price even for those who deny Him[3]". Therefore, they say, Christ died for the non-elect (those who never believe) just as He died for the elect (those who believe and are saved). They claim that this verse provides proof that Christ 'died for' those who are never saved, therefore making the atonement universal. Consequently, this is used to argue against the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement, whereby Christ is said to have died a substitutionary, atoning death only for those who are actually and finally saved.

A sure understanding of exactly what is meant in 2 Pet. 2:1 may be beyond the scope of this article, but I think there is clear evidence that it cannot mean what the universal redemptionists claim regarding the extent of the atonement.

With that in mind, I would like to look specifically at the definition of the word agorazo, review its New Testament usage, and comment on what I believe to be some significant aspects of its meaning. Then we will briefly look at some examples of the misuse of agorazo to hopefully see the fallacy involved in the universalist's argument from 2 Peter 2:1. And finally, we will try to take a fresh look at the verse in light of our discussion and see if we can get a better handle on its potential meaning.

Definition of the word

Agorazo means to buy, to purchase, or to acquire ownership by payment of a price. This is a common word in the Greek, yet it is also one of the great words in Scripture used to describe our redemption by Christ. Therefore, we would do well to make sure that we correctly understand its use in the New Testament. Specific references for the meaning of this Greek word are presented below:
Moulton[4] - (a) to acquire by a ransom or price paid, (b) to redeem.

Vine[5] - (a) to buy as in a market-place, (b) figuratively, of Christ having bought men, making them his property at the price of His blood. Note that Vine sees redeem as too strong for agorazo and reserves that thought for its compound form, exagorazo.

Thayer[6] - (a) originally, it meant to frequent the market-place, (b) primarily it means to buy or obtain for a price, (c) figuratively, Christ is said to have purchased his disciples, i.e. made them his private property.
For completeness, let us also look at the meaning of the English word from Webster[7], where buy is said to mean (a) to get by paying money or some equivalent, or (b) to get as by an exchange. This is in complete agreement with the meaning of our Greek word. You will note that the buyer gets whatever is bought, thus the idea of acquiring or gaining possession is present in both the Greek and English words.

New Testament usage

This word is used 30 times in the New Testament. The New American Standard Bible translates it as buy 25 times, purchase 4 times, and spend 1 time. Of the thirty occurrences, twenty-four are in a common or secular sense such as buying a field (Matt. 13:44) or buying food (Luke 9:13). On six occasions, however, it is used of people in a spiritual or theological sense with God or Christ as the purchaser. These are:
1 Cor. 6:20 - you have been bought with a price
1 Cor. 7:23 - you were bought with a price
2 Pet. 2:1 - denying the Master who bought them
Rev. 5:9 - Thou . . . didst purchase. . . men from every tribe, tongue and people
Rev. 14:3 - who had been purchased from the earth
Rev. 14:4 - These have been purchased from among men
The compound form of this word, exagorazo, is used four times in the New Testament, twice with a theological reference to people. The prefix ex- is seen as an intensification or strengthened form of the basic word agorazo; literally it means to buy up or buy out of. Hence, the NASB and other modern versions translate it as redeem, as shown below:
Gal. 3:13 - Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law
Gal. 4:5 - in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law
Comments on the meaning of the word

It is clear that the word agorazo means to buy in the normal and full sense of the English word buy. The thing to notice is that this word, in Greek and English, means more than simply to put down or pay a price; it includes the idea of acquiring or obtaining ownership. In the normal sense, such as in buying a field (Matt. 13:44), the field, once bought, becomes the property of the buyer. There is no tentativeness or pending aspect to this. If the field has been bought, it belongs to the buyer. If it has not been acquired by the buyer, it has not been bought.

Neither can this word be depreciated to mean merely offer as in offering a price or making the price available. An offer may never be taken up. An offer may be rejected or refused. In such cases nothing is bought at all. The word buy includes the idea that the transaction is consummated. That is the very nature of the word.

This word was often used in the Greek of New Testament times to refer to the buying of a slave. It is noted also that purchasing the slave released him from his former bondage. Now a man may purchase a slave without necessarily releasing him from bondage. Indeed, he may purchase a slave for the purpose of keeping him in bondage to himself, the purchaser. However, what remained true was that the slave was always released from his previous master by such a transaction. Therefore, agorazo also carries with it the idea of release. There are times when the New Testament represents Christians as being in precisely that situation. We were bought out of slavery to sin and Satan, but we are now the slaves of Christ. We were redeemed by His blood, and therefore we belong to Him, we are His.

There are also instances of pagan usage where a slave raised the price for his own freedom. In such cases he could take the money to the temple priests and for a fee they would buy his freedom for him[8]. They would buy him from his master to become a servant of the god of the temple, or in essence a free man. Still, there was no buying without a release or freedom from the previous bondage; and in this case there was also a theoretical change in ownership, from the former master to the temple.

My point should be clear even if my reason for making it is not yet apparent. The word agorazo does not mean simply to put down a price, but actually to gain possession of something. This is clearly the meaning carried in all the other uses of this word in the New Testament, whether it is the secular use of the word or the theological or redemptive use of the word.

Examples of misuse

In some discussions of agorazo, this simple fact soon gets overlooked. For example, Lewis Sperry Chafer, says of agorazo in regard to buying slaves, "Its technical meaning implies only the purchase of the slave, but does not necessarily convey the thought of his release from slavery." And again, "There is then a redemption which pays the price, but does not of necessity release the slave[9]".

The first statement of Chafer's may be true, but not in the sense that he apparently means it. A man may certainly purchase a slave without releasing him from bondage. As discussed above, a slave may be purchased for the specific purpose of keeping him in bondage. This happened in slave markets all the time. The fact is, however, that the slave was released from his former bondage and became the property of the new owner. He was always released from his previous master by such a purchase.

The second quotation from Chafer clearly suggests something different, and that is the payment of the price without acquiring ownership. If this is what he means, and I'm sure it is, he has simply departed from the meaning of the word. Agorazo means to buy or to purchase, not simply put down a price.

Robert Lightner reflects the same shift in meaning in his discussion of redemption words, including agorazo. For example, he states, "Christ by His death redeemed or paid the price for sin[10]". Here Lightner too equates redemption with the bare payment of a price, which violates the meaning of redeem. But you see he must do so, for he, like Chafer, is bound by his theological view of the atonement to say that what Christ has done in His death, He has done for all men; and since all men are not actually acquired by Christ in a redemptive sense, he must reduce agorazo to mean merely the payment of the price.

This depreciated meaning is especially evident in Lightner's discussion of 2 Pet. 2:1. Regarding these false teachers, Lightner says, "The purchase price of redemption was paid by the Lord for even the false prophets and teachers, even though they quite obviously never accept it". And again, "these individuals, whoever they are, . . . endure eternal separation from God; yet they are the very ones for whom Christ paid the purchase price[11]".

Whatever 2 Pet. 2:1 means, it is evident that Lightner has changed the meaning of agorazo. He has given up the idea of buying with its attendant notion of acquiring ownership and has reduced the meaning to the putting down of a price.

This is somewhat surprising since elsewhere Lightner quotes with approval John Walvoord's statement that, "Christ's death constituted an act of purchase in which the sinner is removed from his former bondage to sin by payment of the ransom price[12]". If this is true, and it is, then "Christ's death is something far more glorious than the payment of a price that may leave millions still in bondage to sin. Christ's death is emancipation. That shows beyond doubt that His atonement was only for those who actually come to experience liberty[13]".

Regarding 2 Peter 2:1

In light of our discussion and the full meaning of agorazo, it may be worth pausing to see if we might gain some insight into the interpretation of this verse. As we have seen, those who maintain a universal atonement want to make buy mean put down a price, but that's not what it means. Therefore this verse cannot mean that Christ died for those whom He will never make His own. Once we understand this, we ought to be able to consider, a little more sympathetically, some other possible interpretations of this verse.

According to the meaning of agorazo, we must take this verse to say that God or Christ acquired some men who proved false. How, or in what sense, has Christ acquired these men? Has He acquired them by actually redeeming them by His blood, that is, by delivering them from bondage to sin? That is obviously not the case here. These men will go into eternity unredeemed and separated from God.

In the verses where agorazo is obviously used in a redemptive context, it is clear that the redemption is restricted to believers and that an actual redemption is in view, not merely the putting down of a price. Here in 2 Pet. 2:1 it is admitted by most scholars that these false teachers are unsaved men destined for destruction. They cannot have been bought in the sense of being redeemed by the blood of Christ.


The question then remains, In what sense has Christ bought, or rather acquired, these false teachers? Wells suggests that possible options include Christ acquiring them by virtue of their association with the church and their profession of faith. It is clear that they claim to be Christians teaching the truth of God. They are members, if you will, of the church. However, their very teaching somehow denies or betrays the gospel of God's grace. Christ being the Head and sovereign Lord or owner of the church may be said to have acquired them by the fact that outwardly they are part of the church.

Or, they may have been bought in the sense that their association with the church provided an escape from the corruption of the world, as specifically suggested in 2 Pet. 2:20[14]. There we read, "For if they (the false teachers) have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again are entangled in them and are overcome, the last state being worse for them than the first." There is a real sense in which they have been sanctified, set apart from the world, by Christ through the church of which they profess to be a part.

Other possible interpretations of this verse are presented by Gary Long who agrees with the need to retain the full meaning of agorazo[14]. Long also points out that Peter intentionally alludes to Deuteronomy 32:6 when he refers to the false teachers as "denying the Master who bought them". You can easily see the parallel, for there we read, Do you thus repay the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you. Deut. 32:6.

If this is a valid allusion, then the final phrase of Deut. 32:6 may shed light on the understanding of bought in our 2 Peter passage. Can he possibly mean bought in the sense of made and established? I think the context demands a serious look at Deuteronomy 32, especially since Peter has just compared these false teachers to the "false prophets that also arose among the people" and apparently alludes to Deut. 32:5 in verse 13 of the same chapter.

This also seems to be consistent with the fact that Peter refers to the one denied as Master (Greek: despotes) not Lord as we might expect if spiritual redemption by the blood of Christ were in view. This word emphasizes God (or Christ) as sovereign ruler over the earth and the one who creates and establishes all things, a thought consistent with the allusion to Deut. 32:6. In fact, if Deut. 32:6 is in Peter's mind, then Master here is more likely a reference to God the Father than to Christ. It is an assumption on the part of most commentators that Master refers to Christ. It is also an assumption that bought refers to His death on the cross. The context must be fairly evaluated. I'm not sure it has been in most of the works I've seen.


In conclusion, I do not pretend to have solved the problem of 2 Peter 2:1. In fact, I may only have raised more questions in the readers mind. However, one thing should be perfectly clear. Whatever else 2 Peter 2:1 may mean, its interpretation must include God or Christ acquiring these people. It is not enough to say He paid the price for them. Without the element of acquisition or ownership, any understanding of this verse is false.
 

marke

Well-known member
According to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph. 3:11, He has already determined that many shall have their part in the second death to pay the price for their own sins:

Rev. 21:7-8:

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2 Pet. 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Yes, unrepentant sinners will go to hell without excuse for their sins because they reject the Light given them by the Holy Spirit. Who does not understand that fact?

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
According to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph. 3:11, He has already determined that many shall have their part in the second death to pay the price for their own sins:

Rev. 21:7-8:

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2 Pet. 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
What price can be paid for being born in sins? Who comes up with these arbitrary sentences? Sinners cannot pay for sins because God is not interested in payment for sins. God is interested in sinners turning from their sins to God so He can forgive them of their sins. Jesus did not "pay for sins" so much as He satisfied the righteous judgment of God for the sins of all sinners. You cannot buy God off like a crooked judge who will take a bribe to let a criminal go free. All sins must be judged and God judges sins on the basis of their severity. Some sins warrant more serious punishments than others and the only sin which results in condemnation to hell forever is rejecting God's enlightenment and grace in favor of harboring sin.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Yes, unrepentant sinners will go to hell without excuse for their sins because they reject the Light given them by the Holy Spirit. Who does not understand that fact?

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

What price can be paid for being born in sins? Who comes up with these arbitrary sentences? Sinners cannot pay for sins because God is not interested in payment for sins. God is interested in sinners turning from their sins to God so He can forgive them of their sins. Jesus did not "pay for sins" so much as He satisfied the righteous judgment of God for the sins of all sinners. You cannot buy God off like a crooked judge who will take a bribe to let a criminal go free. All sins must be judged and God judges sins on the basis of their severity. Some sins warrant more serious punishments than others and the only sin which results in condemnation to hell forever is rejecting God's enlightenment and grace in favor of harboring sin.

God's Elect exclusively were chosen in Christ to have forgiveness of sins before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-7.
 

marke

Well-known member
God's Elect exclusively were chosen in Christ to have forgiveness of sins before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-7.
That's right. God has chosen to save all who come to Jesus by faith and He has chosen to condemn all those who reject the light He gives them.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
 
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