POTD :first:Turbo said:JCAtheist, though believers may sin, our identity is in Christ who is righteous and we are under grace which is made available through Him. We are not identified as sinners in the eyes of God.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:24-25
Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; Philippians 3:8-9
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. Galatians 2:21
Unbelievers are not under grace because they have not accepted the forgiveness offered through Christ, therefore they remain under the law and will be judged accordingly should they die in unbelief.
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. 1 Timothy 1:8-11
You asked,
what is the point of judgement for 'unbelievers'? What 'judgement' is there to make?
They will be judged according to their sins. Maybe you are under the impression that sin is sin and one sin is no worse than another? That's a common cliché among Christians these days, but it isn't true:
[jesus]And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.[/jesus] Luke 12:47-48
Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?"
Jesus answered, [jesus]"You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." [/jesus] John 19:10-11
You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters. Ezekiel 16:52
[jesus]"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."[/jesus] Mat. 23:14-15
[jesus]"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."[/jesus] Mat. 11:21-24
In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, "I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow." Rev. 18:7
what happens to an unbeliever when confronted completely with the very thing they believe? Do they stay unbelievers? ...What and who exactly can still be an unbeliever in the face of God?
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! James 2:19
Simply believing that God exists is insufficient. When we are talking about believers vs. unbelievers, we are talking about those who have humbled themselves before God and accepted the forgiveness for our sins that He offers through Christ vs. those who reject Him and the grace He offers.
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. Hebrews 9:27-28
Jesus said to him, [jesus]"Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."[/jesus] John 20:29
We are graciously given the opportunity to accept Christ during this life, not after.
Upon what do you base this belief?I do not believe a righteous God allows ANYTHING to suffer eternal torment for 'eternity'.. no matter what word is used to define it's meaning, I think we today have missed some context somewhere.
[ context ]
