Knight and Zman one on one.

[death2impiety]

Just a note, I don't think its been mentioned yet but the thread that is being discussed on this thread is located here: One on One: Z Man & Knight.

Yeah Exactly...would you guys mind staying on topic? Otherwise take it somewhere else! :zoomin:

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Now, when you say "Was immersed in the ..." You make it sound as though you have a bias against the Scholastic movement. I personally am a fan of it.

Nope. When I say "Was immersed in," I mean was deeply knowledgeable of, and conversant with, Scholasticism.

The only real problem I have with Scholasticism is the same problem that I have with any form of apologetics that considers its source to be absolute: if you cannot admit any posibility of error in your source argument, then your defense arguments become convoluted at best, and disingenuous at worst. A classic example of this type of apologetics (on a topic that we can both agree was wrong) was the pro-Communist apologetics of the Soviet Union after WWII: they didn't care what argument they used, false or true, so long as it persuaded for the moment.

Justin

 

[death2impiety]

He doesn't need to, but its more effective that way.



He can, but didn't.



No no no, i am saying that the glory of heaven is contrasted by the miserable state of Hell.



All of this has already been predestined and ordained before time ever started.

i shall quote the Angelic Doctor

http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP023.html#FPQ23A3THEP1

Whether God reprobates any man?

I read your post. I'm on my way out the door so I'll reply to it tomorrow when I get back to my computer.

 

[death2impiety]

atrol: PLEASE EVERYONE, THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS KNIGHT & ZMAN'S ONE ON ONE... If you want to debate other topics please create a thread of your own. THANKS

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

atrol: PLEASE EVERYONE, THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS KNIGHT & ZMAN'S ONE ON ONE... If you want to debate other topics please create a thread of your own. THANKS

Sowwy.

 

[Scholastic]

Nope. When I say "Was immersed in," I mean was deeply knowledgeable of, and conversant with, Scholasticism.

The only real problem I have with Scholasticism is the same problem that I have with any form of apologetics that considers its source to be absolute: if you cannot admit any posibility of error in your source argument, then your defense arguments become convoluted at best, and disingenuous at worst.

You are assuming there is a possibility of error in the Scholastic arguments. If i may quote Aquinas: "[the Catholic] faith and [human] reason are harmonious. However, if it would seem that [the catholic] faith and [human] reason would conflict, then it is the reasoning that is flawed.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

You are assuming there is a possibility of error in the Scholastic arguments. If i may quote Aquinas: "[the Catholic] faith and [human] reason are harmonious. However, if it would seem that [the catholic] faith and [human] reason would conflict, then it is the reasoning that is flawed.

Scholastic, if you want to continue this discussion, we really need to split this off into its own thread.

 

[Scholastic]

Scholastic, if you want to continue this discussion, we really need to split this off into its own thread.

go ahead and make a thread, then?

 

[death2impiety]

Sowwy.

its okay, your convo is interesting but you should make your own thread

 

[Freak]

But there's one fundamental issue in the whole Calvinist-Everybody Else debate that keeps getting lost: no human being is capable of understanding the whole "Sovereign-Free Will" issue, yet we go around arguing and fighting as if we understood the whole thing.

That's not just pride, it's foolish pride.

Wow! Awesome post. Right on! :up:

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Wow! Awesome post. Right on! :up:

See, Jim ... even a blind pig can find the occasional acorn.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Wow! Awesome post. Right on! :up:

So let me get this straight . . . you are giving Justin the thumbs up :up: for asserting you (and me of course) are foolish for debating this issue?

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

So let me get this straight . . . you are giving Justin the thumbs up :up: for asserting you (and me of course) are foolish for debating this issue?

Hmmm ... is now the time to just quietly go post in a :spam: thread, I wonder .... ? :angel:

Seriously, folks, we can debate about these things for the rest of our lives and never reach a resolution: and don't get me wrong, I love a good debate as much as the next loudmouth, opinionated poster. :blabla: :chuckle:

The problem is not the debate ... the problem is when we get set in our hearts or minds that we KNOW. Because we don't.

 

[death2impiety]

Hmmm ... is now the time to just quietly go post in a :spam: thread, I wonder .... ? :angel:

Seriously, folks, we can debate about these things for the rest of our lives and never reach a resolution: and don't get me wrong, I love a good debate as much as the next loudmouth, opinionated poster. :blabla: :chuckle:

The problem is not the debate ... the problem is when we get set in our hearts or minds that we KNOW. Because we don't.

The same can be said of virtually any debate. For me, discussing such issues, grows my knowledge about both sides substantially. It's my hope that eventually some truth to a particular matter may be unveiled.

 

[death2impiety]

He can, but didn't.

How do you define God?

No no no, i am saying that the glory of heaven is contrasted by the miserable state of Hell.

Though, if experiencing misery is a precursor to experiencing euphoria, hells state won't matter. We won't know the misery of hell because we won't be there to witness it...unless of course, God takes us for field trips to say, "See how good you have it!"

 

[death2impiety]

final thoughts?

final thoughts?

I just wanted to quote a few things...

Originally posted by Knight
You see Z Man, my entire point on the other thread was . . . if I have NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER of my life and you have NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER over your life why even bother attempting to convince me of your theology? Why get mad at me or frustrated with me? If God is controlling me to mock you or reject your theology it's God you should be frustrated with and not me.

:thumb:

The problem is . . .
Z Man believes and promotes that we have NO CONTROL of our lives WHATSOEVER. Therefore, if God CONTROLS EVERYTHING with His "perfect ways" how can we help but think whatever God ordained that we think???

So to Zman, God ordained that we sin, ordains each sin and also that we be responsible for it... using this logic, it sounds like God is responsible for it.

I thought this thread was going great. We were getting along just fine until your previous post. I guess you were scheming the whole time to pick something out of my posts to use it against me. Since I have been perfectly clear so far on this topic, it seems that you got frustrated and just made up problems, so you wouldn't have to continue this discussion that clearly proves your assumption wrong about God's control and our responsibility.

My sister does the same thing. When she knows she lost an argument she runs off on some irrelevant tangent about how I'm "the bad guy"

This is exaclty the type of nonsense I suspected you would conduct as soon as you asked me for a One on One.

If there is one thing that life has taught me, it's that nonsense is easily refuted

Something I really don't get is how a Christian could believe that God would ordain that one child be aborted, or one 10 year old raped...

 

[ShadowMaid]

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

That's a strange thing, because if God didn't create confusion, and he controls everything that goes on in the world, then... where did we get it?

I do wonder how Zman can think like this. It's really confusing. :dizzy:

 

[Z Man]

So your saying God had it all planned out: create man, curse man and finally, have my son murdered so...people will glorify me...with all His power surely there is a better way to be glorified.

If so, it would of been done that way. Do you not trust God? I'm sure the way He has chosen to do things is the best way. Don't you?

 

[ShadowMaid]

I have a question with regards to Knight and Zman's one on one thread.

How can someone be responsible for someone else's act?

 

[Z Man]

Let me clarify a point that a lot of people seem to have trouble with on this topic. When God ordains us to do something, whether it be murder, or to help an old lady across the street, He does it for a greater good; primarily for His glory. When we commit the act that He has ordained, we do it for a whole nother purpose. We may kill someone for selfish reasons, or help an old lady across the street to make us feel better about ourselves, or to be recognized as being 'good'.

The verses I presented on One on One with Knight are not meant to answer the question, "How can I be responsible if God controls it", but rather to show us that the Bible does teach that it is truth. How so? Well, the answer can be found in the reasons/motivations behind our actions. God does them for good, we do them for evil.