John 20:28 and the Trinity

[NWL]

Now....in lieu of jumping haphazardly, from one topic to yet another, pick your very best 'argument' and defend it.

It doesn't work like that Bowman, I have not jumped from one topic to another, what has happened is that our discussion has spiraled into more than one sub-discussion, which is to be expected, you then fail to address issues I raise in these discussions that results in me askign questions to get you to recognize the issues. You fail to answer my single question yet carry on with the discussions raising more points which then create more questions. Thus your failure to deal with questions as they come results in a long list of them, if you dealt with them as they came you wouldn't have this issue.

I'm not one to let a question go, why should I? The question that needs to be asked is why do you refuse to answer them, what are you hiding.

Yes, I did.

Enough of your copy-pasted list of questions that you pose for everyone, and then you conveniently forget to reply, or to whom you even reply to, or you just post paragraph after paragraph expressing your contempt and astonishment.

No you didn't, I clearly demonstrated how you didn't with each question, asserting you are correct doesn't make you correct. If you did then show me where and how you answered the questions, if you don't then it's a clear sign that you did not. As I've said I've showed evidence that shows you failed to answer most of the questions I asked, you've brought nothing to the table to show that you have other than your word, which is not a lot.

The questions I used with you were unique to our discussion, I'm not like you Bowman, I don't have a documents that I copy and paste from as you clearly have.

Where have I ever forgotten to reply as you say? Where have I ever forgotten whom I am speaking to as you claim? False claims to try and bolster your false assertions. Again, unless you back up these claims then how can anyone believe you on face value?

As I said before, deal with the questions, when you can then come back to me. Stop writing post to me clearly lying by telling me you've answered the questions, my post proves otherwise.

NWl's post to Apple7 detailing how he didn't answer questions (click arrow to follow link)

 

[Apple7]

It doesn't work like that Bowman, I have not jumped from one topic to another, what has happened is that our discussion has spiraled into more than one sub-discussion, which is to be expected, you then fail to address issues I raise in these discussions that results in me askign questions to get you to recognize the issues. You fail to answer my single question yet carry on with the discussions raising more points which then create more questions. Thus your failure to deal with questions as they come results in a long list of them, if you dealt with them as they came you wouldn't have this issue.

You keep evading.

Paragraph, after paragraph, you seem content to express your disbelief, and your affection for me.



Again...

Pick your very best 'argument' and defend it to conclusion.

Simple enough request, for a JW...

 

[NWL]

You keep evading.

This is rich coming from you, the person who refused to answer any of the questions in the following link.

LINK TO QUESTIONS BOWMAN/APPLE7 REFUSES TO ANSWER

Paragraph, after paragraph, you seem content to express your disbelief, and your affection for me.

Lol, my affection for you, I've heard from other forum members you have homosexual feelings (this is not me putting you down simply what I've honestly heard), but I really don't swing that way bowman.

Again...

Pick your very best 'argument' and defend it to conclusion.

Simple enough request, for a JW...

For you to not deal with any points I raise and refuse to answer counter questions I pose, no thanks. I'd much rather have you deal with the discussion at hand an answer at least some, if not all, the question I've asked. Then we can carry our discussion from where we left off, tell me how this isn't reasonable?

 

[Apple7]

This is rich coming from you, the person who refused to answer any of the questions in the following link.





Lol, my affection for you, I've heard from other forum members you have homosexual feelings (this is not me putting you down simply what I've honestly heard), but I really don't swing that way bowman.



For you to not deal with any points I raise and refuse to answer counter questions I pose, no thanks. I'd much rather have you deal with the discussion at hand an answer at least some, if not all, the question I've asked. Then we can carry our discussion from where we left off, tell me how this isn't reasonable?

Last chance.

Pick your very best 'argument', or one will be selected on your behalf...

 

[Apple7]

I gave you a few days to come forth with your very best single argument, and you failed to deliver.

Thus...I selected one from your bucket, that, according to you, never seems to be answered....probably because you never bothered to look, or you can't accept the answer...

---------------

I asked "How Titus 1:14, Psalms 49:7 or any other scripture express that Jesus needed to be "God" for the ransom to mean something?"

You have given no response to this question or given an explanation of how the two above verses proof your point when you originally showed them to me. If I'm wrong tell me the post number.

---------------

First of all, due to your repeated carelessness, you provided the WRONG reference in Titus.

Secondly, let me repost the scripture that tells us plainly that ONLY God can pay the ransom...


A man cannot at all ransom a brother, nor give to God a ransom for him, for the ransom of their soul is precious, and it ceases forever, (Psalm 49.7 – 8); but God will ransom my soul from the grave. (Psalm 49.15)


Is Psalm 49 clear enough for you?

If not, then this is what you need to do...

Write three to four paragraphs declaring your disbelief, surprise and utter contempt for this passage, and then elaborate on your feelings for me, again, and then change the subject matter.

Ball is now in your court...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

A man cannot at all ransom a brother, nor give to God a ransom for him, for the ransom of their soul is precious, and it ceases forever, (Psalm 49.7 – 8); but God will ransom my soul from the grave. (Psalm 49.15)
Is Psalm 49 clear enough for you?.

Yes, God the Father is the Saviour – Redeemer in and through His Servant – Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Isaiah 42:1-8 (KJV): 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 49:5-9 (KJV): 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, Yes, God the Father is the Saviour – Redeemer in and through His Servant – Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

As jacked-up as your christadelphian cult is, even you can see that ONLY God can pay the ransom for humanity.

Please tell this to the Jehovah witness cult follower, NWL, so that he can expel his demon(s) and become clear-headed.


to Titus, a true child according to our common faith: Grace, mercy, peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. Titus 1.4

 

[Apple7]

Isaiah 42:1-8 (KJV): 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Kind regards
Trevor

Why do you insist on proving The Triune God with scripture, Trev?

Scores of times in scripture, the dialogue of God alternates from First-Person to Third-Person...thus, the only logical conclusion that one can arrive at is that Yahweh is more than one Person.

Isaiah 42.8 - 15

I am Yahweh; that is My name(First-Person); and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images. Behold, the former things have come to pass, and I declare new things before they happen, I cause you to hear. Sing a new song to Yahweh; His praise (Third-Person) from the end of the earth, you who go to sea, and all that is in it; the coasts and their people. Let the wilderness and its cities lift up, the villages where Kedar lives. Let those dwelling in the rock sing; let them shout from the top of the mountains. They give glory to Yahweh and declare His praise in the coastlands. Yahweh shall go out as a warrior; and He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war; He shall shout, yea, roar; He shall act mightily on His enemies. I have (First-Person) forever kept silence; I have been quiet and refrained Myself; I will groan like a woman in travail; I will pant and gasp at once I will make mountains and hills become a waste, and dry up all their plants. And I will make the rivers coastlands, and I will dry up pools.

 

[Apple7]

Isaiah 49:5-9 (KJV): 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; 9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. [/color]

Kind regards
Trevor

Please show us the word 'and' in the Hebrew of this passage...

 

[JudgeRightly]

Please show us the word 'and' in the Hebrew of this passage...

I sure don't see it...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

As jacked-up as your christadelphian cult is, even you can see that ONLY God can pay the ransom for humanity.
to Titus, a true child according to our common faith: Grace, mercy, peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. Titus 1.4

Yes, God the Father is the Redeemer and Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God., who thus becomes our Saviour.
Matthew 1:21 (KJV): And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 2:28-32 (KJV): 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luke 1:67-69 (KJV): 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Your theology exists ONLY in your mind...

Your theology exists ONLY in your mind...

Greetings again Apple7, Yes, God the Father is the Redeemer and Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God., who thus becomes our Saviour.

Uhmmm...

Can you please show us the Greek word translated as 'through' in your below passages, Trev...?

Matthew 1:21 (KJV): And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?

Luke 2:28-32 (KJV): 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?

Luke 1:67-69 (KJV): 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Kind regards
Trevor

Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Uhmmm... Can you please show us the Greek word translated as 'through' in your below passages, Trev...?
Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?

In each of the quotations God the Father is shown distinct from Jesus, and the process begins with God. In Matthew 1:21 God is informing Joseph that the child conceived would save, Luke 2:28-32 Simeon praises God the Father and speaks of the salvation that God will accomplish through the child in his arms “thy salvation” not “his salvation”, and similarly in Luke 1:67-69 it speaks of God the Father visiting and potentially redeeming His people and having raised up a horn of salvation who is the babe Jesus. Yes, in all of these God the Father is working through Jesus to redeem and save.

Your theology exists ONLY in your mind...

Now let us see where your theology twists the above.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Don't run from your examples....stand...and defend them...

Don't run from your examples....stand...and defend them...

Greetings again Apple7, In each of the quotations God the Father is shown distinct from Jesus, and the process begins with God.

Who, but you, ever thought that The Father and The Son were each other to begin with?

Each IS the one God; but each is NOT the other.

With defunct comments like yours, we must wonder what straw-man version of The Trinity your cult has indoctrinated you with.

In Matthew 1:21 God is informing Joseph that the child conceived would save,

Again...Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?

Luke 2:28-32 Simeon praises God the Father and speaks of the salvation that God will accomplish through the child in his arms “thy salvation” not “his salvation”,

Again...Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?

and similarly in Luke 1:67-69 it speaks of God the Father visiting and potentially redeeming His people and having raised up a horn of salvation who is the babe Jesus. Yes, in all of these God the Father is working through Jesus to redeem and save. Now let us see where your theology twists the above.

Kind regards
Trevor

Again...Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Who, but you, ever thought that The Father and The Son were each other to begin with? Each IS the one God; but each is NOT the other.
With defunct comments like yours, we must wonder what straw-man version of The Trinity your cult has indoctrinated you with.
Again...Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?
Again...Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?
Again...Where is the Greek or English word 'through', Trev?

This proves that you are the one with a vivid imagination.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Why reply when you have NO rebuttal?

Why reply when you have NO rebuttal?

Greetings again Apple7, This proves that you are the one with a vivid imagination.

Kind regards
Trevor

Said no one, ever.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Why reply when you have NO rebuttal?

Why repeat the obvious? I was also disengaging due to the desire to spend more time on our Bible Class on Isaiah, rather than spend so much time on repeating the same matter on this forum. During our holidays I spent an interesting time on the class a fortnight ago, and benefited when one of our senior presenters spoke on Isaiah 44. Tomorrow will be Isaiah 45 and I have not done any preparation or revision. On Sunday afternoon I had 8 forum replies to respond to, and I chose to reply to only 2. I do not think that all of us make much progress in understanding in these forums, but I really appreciate the benefit of our Bible Classes. I do not know how you make notes, but I make notes on the Logos 7 program. I thoroughly revised my notes for Isaiah 44 before the class, but have not looked at Isaiah 45 notes as yet. One thing is that I update the notes to the new format that highlights the actual Bible words that are being commented upon. Have you done much study and exposition on Isaiah apart from you specialisation on the Trinity?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, Why repeat the obvious? I was also disengaging due to the desire to spend more time on our Bible Class on Isaiah, rather than spend so much time on repeating the same matter on this forum. During our holidays I spent an interesting time on the class a fortnight ago, and benefited when one of our senior presenters spoke on Isaiah 44. Tomorrow will be Isaiah 45 and I have not done any preparation or revision. On Sunday afternoon I had 8 forum replies to respond to, and I chose to reply to only 2. I do not think that all of us make much progress in understanding in these forums, but I really appreciate the benefit of our Bible Classes. I do not know how you make notes, but I make notes on the Logos 7 program. I thoroughly revised my notes for Isaiah 44 before the class, but have not looked at Isaiah 45 notes as yet. One thing is that I update the notes to the new format that highlights the actual Bible words that are being commented upon. Have you done much study and exposition on Isaiah apart from you specialisation on the Trinity?

Kind regards
Trevor

Isaiah is all about The Son and The Trinity.

For your upcoming classes, have your instructors explain why Phil 2.5 - 11 quotes from Isa 45, as thus...


Isa 45.21 - 24

Declare and bring near; yea, let them consult together. Who has revealed this of old; who has told it from then? Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no God other than Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, The Word has gone out of My mouth (Son) in Righteousness (Holy Spirit), and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. He shall say, Only in Yahweh (Father) do I have Righteousness(Holy Spirit) and Strength(Son); to Him he comes; and they are ashamed, all who are angry with Him.



Implications:

• Phil 2 quotes Isa 45 – which declares that The Word has proceeded from The Mouth of Yahweh – a clear epithet for the Second Person of The Trinity.
• Isa 45 quotes Yahweh, in the first-person singular, as He declares that every knee will bow to Him, and every tongue confess to Him, and Him alone, as He is the only God, there is no other.
• Compare to Phil 2, which openly describes The Second Person of The Trinity, The Word of God, same as called in Isa 45, as being equal to God, and is worshiped.
• Further, Isa 45 is in the context of The Trinity, as declared by the epithets for Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


Please have them provide their exegesis on the matter...thanks...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Isaiah is all about The Son and The Trinity.
For your upcoming classes, have your instructors explain why Phil 2.5 - 11 quotes from Isa 45, as thus...
Implications:
• Phil 2 quotes Isa 45 – which declares that The Word has proceeded from The Mouth of Yahweh – a clear epithet for the Second Person of The Trinity.
• Isa 45 quotes Yahweh, in the first-person singular, as He declares that every knee will bow to Him, and every tongue confess to Him, and Him alone, as He is the only God, there is no other.
• Compare to Phil 2, which openly describes The Second Person of The Trinity, The Word of God, same as called in Isa 45, as being equal to God, and is worshiped.
• Further, Isa 45 is in the context of The Trinity, as declared by the epithets for Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/B]
Please have them provide their exegesis on the matter...thanks...

I appreciate your input. I am very conscious of the fact that Philippians 2 quotes from Isaiah 45, but I was convinced that you would see this chapter from a Trinitarian perspective. I do not think our expositor would agree with you or even mention this in any way. It is certainly not all about the Trinity, but about the One God the Father and His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ Philippians 2:10-11.

I asked whether you have done much study and exposition on Isaiah apart from a Trinitarian perspective. There was an amusing advertisement on TV some years ago in Australia, possibly adapted from a UK or USA ad. There was a funeral director or member who used to be very quiet but attended many social events in his familiar funeral clothes. He used to talk about funerals, and he was equipped with his tape measure to check the size of the coffin needed of the various people that were in the social event. Then one day he discovered the major city newspaper, with a different segment each day, on travel, on business, on the arts, movies and other sections. After reading he could mix freely in company and he became the centre of the social scene.

I have had some time to revise some of my notes on Isaiah 45, but only on the first few verses and the chapter breakup. So far I have been interested in Cyrus, not the “Trinitarian” problem that you present. My notes were made in 2011 when I was given access and listened to a series of 100 Bible Classes given in another State over 10 years. The major speaker gave 90 of these talks, and one feature of his discourse was the emphasis on NT quotations of Isaiah, as well as links to some of Moses’ writings. I also started with a home study class on Isaiah when I was young, and really enjoyed an early series of talks on Isaiah 1-12, originally on tapes but I converted these to mp3 before I wore out the tapes, and these talks were by a very well respected speaker in the 1950s. I enjoy Isaiah as a whole, and like to discuss aspects with other members of our meeting.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I appreciate your input. I am very conscious of the fact that Philippians 2 quotes from Isaiah 45, but I was convinced that you would see this chapter from a Trinitarian perspective. I do not think our expositor would agree with you or even mention this in any way. It is certainly not all about the Trinity, but about the One God the Father and His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ Philippians 2:10-11.

I asked whether you have done much study and exposition on Isaiah apart from a Trinitarian perspective. There was an amusing advertisement on TV some years ago in Australia, possibly adapted from a UK or USA ad. There was a funeral director or member who used to be very quiet but attended many social events in his familiar funeral clothes. He used to talk about funerals, and he was equipped with his tape measure to check the size of the coffin needed of the various people that were in the social event. Then one day he discovered the major city newspaper, with a different segment each day, on travel, on business, on the arts, movies and other sections. After reading he could mix freely in company and he became the centre of the social scene.

I have had some time to revise some of my notes on Isaiah 45, but only on the first few verses and the chapter breakup. So far I have been interested in Cyrus, not the “Trinitarian” problem that you present. My notes were made in 2011 when I was given access and listened to a series of 100 Bible Classes given in another State over 10 years. The major speaker gave 90 of these talks, and one feature of his discourse was the emphasis on NT quotations of Isaiah, as well as links to some of Moses’ writings. I also started with a home study class on Isaiah when I was young, and really enjoyed an early series of talks on Isaiah 1-12, originally on tapes but I converted these to mp3 before I wore out the tapes, and these talks were by a very well respected speaker in the 1950s. I enjoy Isaiah as a whole, and like to discuss aspects with other members of our meeting.

Kind regards
Trevor

Locating The Trinity in Isaiah is never an issue....once you know what to look for.

The key is in knowing the Names, Titles and epithets Yahweh uses throughout the entire book.

Once you familiarize yourself with the terms that God uses to describe Himself, it really becomes a very straight forward endeavor to locate His Triune nature.

Most people miss it entirely, modern day Jews most certainly did....and other cults, such as yours, likewise are blinded.


My best advice to you is to study the 1,000+ names, titles and epithets used of God in scripture and then you will view scripture in an entirely new light...