ECT Jewish and Christian; Judaism and Christianity; all of the Bible beginning with Torah

Jacob

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I am a Christian and I accept all 66 books of the Bible. Is it okay to talk about the whole Bible as a Christian? I practice many things that are considered Jewish, and I see the Torah as a foundation for Biblical living. Christians should readily accept all of God's word including what is viewed as the Old Testament, be it called the TaNaKh or Hebrew Bible or not (these have the same text as the Christian Old Testament, though the arrangement of these books is different in regard to book order). I believe Yeshua (Jesus) to be the Messiah, and I am a new covenant believer. I realize this is the Exclusively Christian Theology Forum. I am a Christian.

I believe it is possible to be Jewish, Christian, and a new covenant believer. I am wanting to post here because I am a Christian. I already post in the Religion Forum. I have posted in both in the past.

What is the place of the Law in the life of the believer? What do Christians obey as new covenant believers, whether Jew or Greek or Jew or Gentile?

I believe Jew and Gentile should obey Yeshua (Jesus) no matter what commands of God they observe and obey. Not all Christians obey all of God's commands.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The NT was written when reformation was needed away from OT law, both its purpose and its particulars. The reason for this reformation (a term from Hebrews itself) is that the mature method of growth is in Christ, and that there were many particulars that only applied to separation from certain Canaanite practices. The mature method did not need to specify more than a few things in Hellenistic culture, found in the apostle's letter in Acts 15. Bear in mind that this letter is extremely brief when compared to what the zealots were like, which was the concern of Roman authorities reading the background on Paul to determine if he threatened the state like they did.
 

Jacob

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The NT was written when reformation was needed away from OT law, both its purpose and its particulars. The reason for this reformation (a term from Hebrews itself) is that the mature method of growth is in Christ, and that there were many particulars that only applied to separation from certain Canaanite practices. The mature method did not need to specify more than a few things in Hellenistic culture, found in the apostle's letter in Acts 15. Bear in mind that this letter is extremely brief when compared to what the zealots were like, which was the concern of Roman authorities reading the background on Paul to determine if he threatened the state like they did.
I don't know what you are talking about.
 

jamie

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No one can keep the Mosaic law without the sanctuary and Levitical priesthood.

The Law of Moses is not a smorgasbord where you can pick and chose what you like.

Paul explained we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. (Galatians 4:31)
 

Jacob

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Requirements for Gentile believers.

Requirements for Gentile believers.

Acts 15:1-41 NASB - 1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4 When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." 6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." 12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. 24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." 30 So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32 Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message. 33 After they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out. 34 [But it seemed good to Silas to remain there.] 35 But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many others also, the word of the Lord. 36 After some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are." 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, called Mark, along with them also. 38 But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. 39 And there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus. 40 But Paul chose Silas and left, being committed by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. 41 And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

Acts 21:17-26 NASB - 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.
 

Jacob

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The English names for the first five books of the Bible, the Torah, are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. These have been referred to as the Jewish Bible. The TaNaKh, the Hebrew Bible, is the Torah (the Law), the Nevi'im (the Prophets), and the Ketuvim (the Writings).
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Acts 15:1-41 NASB - 1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4 When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." 6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." 12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. 24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." 30 So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32 Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message. 33 After they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out. 34 [But it seemed good to Silas to remain there.] 35 But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many others also, the word of the Lord. 36 After some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are." 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, called Mark, along with them also. 38 But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. 39 And there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus. 40 But Paul chose Silas and left, being committed by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. 41 And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

Acts 21:17-26 NASB - 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.



Yes, we know those are the summary requirements. What are you trying to say about that?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The English names for the first five books of the Bible, the Torah, are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. These have been referred to as the Jewish Bible. The TaNaKh, the Hebrew Bible, is the Torah (the Law), the Nevi'im (the Prophets), and the Ketuvim (the Writings).


Rabbi Prager says the trinity of Judaism is God, the Torah and the Land. He says that they don't really believe in the prognosticative aspect of the prophets, but certainly in the ethical aspect. So after the Torah, the writings have only a secondary authority.
 

Jacob

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Rabbi Prager says the trinity of Judaism is God, the Torah and the Land. He says that they don't really believe in the prognosticative aspect of the prophets, but certainly in the ethical aspect. So after the Torah, the writings have only a secondary authority.
I am not aware of what you are speaking of. The scripture of the TaNaKh is the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.
 

patrick jane

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Jacob;4644850[B said:
]What is the place of the Law[/B] in the life of the believer? What do Christians obey as new covenant believers, whether Jew or Greek or Jew or Gentile?

I believe Jew and Gentile should obey Yeshua (Jesus) no matter what commands of God they observe and obey. Not all Christians obey all of God's commands.


Ephesians 2:15 KJV - The law was abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jesus did come to fulfill. Jesus did fulfill.


Yep. Lk. 18:31. Some people read this as though 'everything' meant 'everything about salvation' or 'everything about his first coming' or 'everything about suffering'. But he meant everything. It was fully expected that the day of judgement upon the whole world was due right after the destruction of Jerusalem. Of course, it has been delayed per Mt 24, Mk 13 and 2 Pet 3. But the fact is it was expected, and there was even a level of being 'taken up in glory' for being victorious in justification, I Tim 3:16.
 
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