Jewed

[IMJerusha]

Astute point, IMJ. I was asked a similar question by a PhD Theologian colleague: "With all the ancients records and documents of many different religions... what makes you think the Bible is authentic?" Fair question, don't you think?

Sure.

My response: "All those four thousand years of recorded Hebrew 'who begat who's' is the mortar in the foundation of my faith."

A good answer. I would add to that a still small voice and the evidence of our eyes.

Yeshua HaMashiach's arrival generation was prophesied in Genesis 4:24 KJV, "seventy and sevenfold," 77 generations. Try counting in Luke 3:38 KJV from God is #1, Adam is #2, Seth is #3... Of course, "sevenfold" (Genesis 4:15 KJV), and "seventy and sevenfold" (Genesis 4:24 KJV) are merely 'undesignated coincidences' according to my search of Jewish literature... With all due respect... Christianity is a little slack there as well. Such is a significant clue unravelling the mystery of the mark of Cain... Pandora's box, btw.

kayaker

If there was anything concrete available for us, what need of faith? In regard to the mark of Cain, or sign of Cain depending on translation, seriously...who cares!? All these things will be learned in the end in His Time.

 

[kayaker]

It would appear juvenile behavior abounds, your phone book notwithstanding.



I think that depends on whether one believes Judaism is a matter of faith or a matter of blood or both.

Thanks for humoring me, IMJ. You above statement was in response to:

Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Rather interesting, IMJ: I have learned here that Judaism and Talmudism are not synonymous. Is this correct? Well, unless one's a Talmudist.

I also appreciate chair's notion there are two aspects of being Jewish; ancestry, and 'all other' (respectfully) which you embrace in the term 'faith'. And, if I understand you correctly, Talmudism is not the only 'faith' aspect of Judaism, analogous to denomination/church in Christianity. The focus of my contest is the ancestral component. Ironically, Christians debate salvation by works... speaking of 'faith'. CherubRam appears to proffer the title 'Jew' is gnostic/pagan/etc. fabrication if I gather his impression correctly.

Do note IMJ: Chair's ancestral aspect of being Jewish is predicated on Levitical/Davidic ancestry. Ben's ancestral aspect of being Jewish is predicated on the main stem of Judah. Yoh shifts from foot to foot. Ironically, God's 'chosen people' were distinctly Israelites, before the title 'Jew' made print... said 'chosen people' were Israelites, collectively, in Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8 before the conquest of the Promised Land. Evidently (obviously), there's a Jewish consensus that ancestry is at least a component of being Jewish... However, the contrast between chair's ancestral notion (at least Levitical/Davidic), and Ben's notion of ancestral notion (via Judah), we now find a breach in consensus on the ancestral component of being Jewish.

While I've suggested chair might find himself sleeping with the enemy; Ben refuses to expound on his Judahite (stem of Judah) ancestral component. My persistent argument: Judah sired his third surviving Canaanite son Shelah, via his Canaanite wife (Genesis 38:1, 2, 1Chronicles 2:3) contrary to Mosaic Law Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3. Judah's relationship with his Canaanite wife was observed as a great trespass by Ezra some thousand years later in Ezra 9:1, 2. Furthermore, Ezra excluded Judah's eldest surviving son Shelah, and "The sons of Shelah the son of Judah" (1Chronicles 4:21, 22, 23) from the tribal roster of Judah in 1Chronicles 4:1.

Meanwhile, King David and Jesus were descendants of of Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar, contrary to Leviticus 18:15, 21:7, 9, 13, 14, 15, etc, via their eldest twin son Pharez (Matthew 1:3, Luke 3:31, 32, 33). Since Judah was the prophesied progenitor of Messiah, there's a line in the sand, here.

Ben wisely and cautiously refuses to address this Judahite ancestral distinction of being Jewish. If I may be so presumptuous, chair has yet to explore this ancestral aspect of Jewishness; as Yoh performs the Texas two-step. Furthermore, CherubRam's claim of the gnostic/pagan origin of the title 'Jew' has at least some foundation, in my mind, when suggesting the Shelanites (descendants of the Canaanite son of Judah, Shelah) possess the prophesied bloodline to produce Messiah. Like I've suggested to chair... he might be sleeping with the enemy, while Ben performs his fire-walking ceremony.

If anyone has tainted the ancestral title of 'Jew', IMJ... they are the Shelanites. King David and Jesus were Pharzite Jews. The Shelanites have no ancestral authority to claim legitimate ancestry (Jewish, on ancestral grounds) securing property in the Promised Land. You might want to ask yourself, along with chair, Yoh, and the rest of us... Is the 'stem of Judah' Ben suggests as the ancestral component of Jewishness, is Ben talking about the Shelanites? Or, Pharzites? Hence: Who's ya mamma? Judah's Canaanite wife? Or, Judah's daughter-in-law, Tamar?

I'll also address your appreciated next posts, shortly.

kayaker

 

[IMJerusha]

Thanks for humoring me, IMJ. You above statement was in response to:



I also appreciate chair's notion there are two aspects of being Jewish; ancestry, and 'all other' (respectfully) which you embrace in the term 'faith'. And, if I understand you correctly, Talmudism is not the only 'faith' aspect of Judaism, analogous to denomination/church in Christianity. The focus of my contest is the ancestral component. Ironically, Christians debate salvation by works... speaking of 'faith'. CherubRam appears to proffer the title 'Jew' is gnostic/pagan/etc. fabrication if I gather his impression correctly.

Do note IMJ: Chair's ancestral aspect of being Jewish is predicated on Levitical/Davidic ancestry. Ben's ancestral aspect of being Jewish is predicated on the main stem of Judah. Yoh shifts from foot to foot. Ironically, God's 'chosen people' were distinctly Israelites, before the title 'Jew' made print... said 'chosen people' were Israelites, collectively, in Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8 before the conquest of the Promised Land. Evidently (obviously), there's a Jewish consensus that ancestry is at least a component of being Jewish... However, the contrast between chair's ancestral notion (at least Levitical/Davidic), and Ben's notion of ancestral notion (via Judah), we now find a breach in consensus on the ancestral component of being Jewish.

While I've suggested chair might find himself sleeping with the enemy; Ben refuses to expound on his Judahite (stem of Judah) ancestral component. My persistent argument: Judah sired his third surviving Canaanite son Shelah, via his Canaanite wife (Genesis 38:1, 2, 1Chronicles 2:3) contrary to Mosaic Law Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3. Judah's relationship with his Canaanite wife was observed as a great trespass by Ezra some thousand years later in Ezra 9:1, 2. Furthermore, Ezra excluded Judah's eldest surviving son Shelah, and "The sons of Shelah the son of Judah" (1Chronicles 4:21, 22, 23) from the tribal roster of Judah in 1Chronicles 4:1.

Meanwhile, King David and Jesus were descendants of of Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar, contrary to Leviticus 18:15, 21:7, 9, 13, 14, 15, etc, via their eldest twin son Pharez (Matthew 1:3, Luke 3:31, 32, 33). Since Judah was the prophesied progenitor of Messiah, there's a line in the sand, here.

Ben wisely and cautiously refuses to address this Judahite ancestral distinction of being Jewish. If I may be so presumptuous, chair has yet to explore this ancestral aspect of Jewishness; as Yoh performs the Texas two-step. Furthermore, CherubRam's claim of the gnostic/pagan origin of the title 'Jew' has at least some foundation, in my mind, when suggesting the Shelanites (descendants of the Canaanite son of Judah, Shelah) possess the prophesied bloodline to produce Messiah. Like I've suggested to chair... he might be sleeping with the enemy, while Ben performs his fire-walking ceremony.

If anyone has tainted the ancestral title of 'Jew', IMJ... they are the Shelanites. King David and Jesus were Pharzite Jews. The Shelanites have no ancestral authority to claim legitimate ancestry (Jewish, on ancestral grounds) securing property in the Promised Land. You might want to ask yourself, along with chair, Yoh, and the rest of us... Is the 'stem of Judah' Ben suggests as the ancestral component of Jewishness, is Ben talking about the Shelanites? Or, Pharzites? Hence: Who's ya mamma? Judah's Canaanite wife? Or, Judah's daughter-in-law, Tamar?

I'll also address your appreciated next posts, shortly.

kayaker

It was God who laid out the criteria for being His Chosen. It has nothing to do with Shelanites or Pharzites.

 

[kayaker]

Sure.



A good answer. I would add to that a still small voice and the evidence of our eyes.



If there was anything concrete available for us, what need of faith? In regard to the mark of Cain, or sign of Cain depending on translation, seriously...who cares!? All these things will be learned in the end in His Time.

With sincere appreciation for "a still small voice", IMJ... Ben claims to walk by 'sight', not by faith. With all due respect, Ben mocks faith, I mock Talmudism, while I want to 'see' those birth certificates... Didn't those who instigated the crucifixion ask for Jesus' birth records in John 8:13? Jesus and His Father were two witnesses according to Mosaic Law (John 8:14 KJV, John 8:18 KJV). Don't witnesses testify? What were those two testimonies of those two divine witnesses authenticating Jesus' divinity between John 8:12 KJV, and John 8:47 KJV? Rhetorically, of course...

Paul spoke much on faith, particularly Hebrews chapter 11 (tremendous chapter!). In his very next chapter, Paul spoke of faith fulfilled:

Hebrews 12:1, 2 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us. 2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."​

I suggest 'faith finished' inspires further inquiry... as in discerning the two testimonies of two divine witnesses.

As far as the significance of the mark of Cain; then, Revelation 2:9, 3:9 bears significance in the next verse:

Revelation 3:10 KJV "Because thou kept the word of my patience (distinguishing an ancestral Jew, from an impostor in the prior verse, and in Revelation 2:9), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
​

Were the Shelanites, who instigated the crucifixion, ancestral Jews, IMJ? In all likelihood, Ben ascribes to the notion the Shelanite descendants of Judah possess the lineage to produce Messiah; or... the Shelanites ARE messiah, as a 'people', speaking of ancestral arrogance. Ben, of course, will not come out of the closet on this issue... while chair, Yoh, and most of the rest of us wander in the proverbial 'dark.'

Do you subscribe to the rendering the instigators of the crucifixion fulfilled Genesis 3:14, 15, KJV? Those Shelanite detractors were the synagogue of Satan (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). This takes us back to Genesis as Jesus spoke regarding end times in Matthew 24:36, 37, 38, 39. Was Cain alive in Noah's day, IMJ (Genesis 6:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)? So, certainly... unveiling the mark of Cain is paramount to the ancestral distinction of Revelation 2:9, 3:9, and such 'truth' is significant as established in Revelation 3:10 KJV. Furthermore, this 'truth' is the collective testimony of Jesus and His Father as Jesus spoke in John 8:30 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV, found in the following verses through John 8:47 KJV.

kayaker

 

[kayaker]

It was God who laid out the criteria for being His Chosen. It has nothing to do with Shelanites or Pharzites.

I appreciate your comment that "It was God who laid out the criteria for being His Chosen", IMJ. I've offered scripture which delineated this distinction. I might add... after the arrival of God's Son, a Pharzite Jew, ancestry was no longer of any significance in the least (but, don't tell this to a Shelnatie). Jesus' dialogue with Nicodemus brings the insignificance of ancestry to light... after the fact... after the arrival of God's Son.

Please try digging around a little deeper, and you'll find the Shelanites were the instigators of the crucifixion... with a little 'faith' I appreciate. Jesus was a Pharzite Jew, those who instigated the crucifixion were Shelanites 'Jews'... The Shelanites were 'chosen' to instigate the crucifixion per Genesis 3:14, 15. Wasn't Judas Escariot, chosen? Did Jesus make a mistake 'choosing' Judas? Rhetorically, of course.

Discerning a Pharzite from a Shelanite is paramount to discerning Revelation 2:9, 3:9. Discerning a Pharzite from a Shelanite is paramount to discerning "And ye shall now the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32 KJV). We do 'put on Christ' as Paul spoke, do we not? Jesus was a Pharzite Jew. In this manner, I also consider myself a Pharzite Jew, by adoption. Of course... a Shelanite will find this quite humorous! LOL!

kayaker

 

[IMJerusha]

I appreciate your comment that "It was God who laid out the criteria for being His Chosen", IMJ. I've offered scripture which delineated this distinction. I might add... after the arrival of God's Son, a Pharzite Jew, ancestry was no longer of any significance in the least (but, don't tell this to a Shelnatie). Jesus' dialogue with Nicodemus brings the insignificance of ancestry to light... after the fact... after the arrival of God's Son.

Please try digging around a little deeper, and you'll find the Shelanites were the instigators of the crucifixion... with a little 'faith' I appreciate. Jesus was a Pharzite Jew, those who instigated the crucifixion were Shelanites 'Jews'... The Shelanites were 'chosen' to instigate the crucifixion per Genesis 3:14, 15. Wasn't Judas Escariot, chosen? Did Jesus make a mistake 'choosing' Judas? Rhetorically, of course.

Discerning a Pharzite from a Shelanite is paramount to discerning Revelation 2:9, 3:9. Discerning a Pharzite from a Shelanite is paramount to discerning "And ye shall now the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32 KJV). We do 'put on Christ' as Paul spoke, do we not? Jesus was a Pharzite Jew. In this manner, I also consider myself a Pharzite Jew, by adoption. Of course... a Shelanite will find this quite humorous! LOL!

kayaker

I am not going to seek to draw a difference in Jews between Pharzites and Shelanites. To me there is but one criteria and that is the criteria of faith. Discernment regarding the hearts of those in the Body belongs solely to God. If one is a Pharzite or a Shelanite or a Karaite, that is between them and God. Not that I wish to lump all Jews into one big pile as Shmuel Asher calls it but rather I wish to lump all believers into the One Body, the people of God, and leave to God what is His business. Not all Christians "lovingly" deride Jews as the group behind the evil of this world. We are each responsible for the part we play in sin whether we hold with Yeshua HaMashiach or not.

 

[kayaker]

I am not going to seek to draw a difference in Jews between Pharzites and Shelanites. To me there is but one criteria and that is the criteria of faith. Discernment regarding the hearts of those in the Body belongs solely to God. If one is a Pharzite or a Shelanite or a Karaite, that is between them and God. Not that I wish to lump all Jews into one big pile as Shmuel Asher calls it but rather I wish to lump all believers into the One Body, the people of God, and leave to God what is His business. Not all Christians "lovingly" deride Jews as the group behind the evil of this world. We are each responsible for the part we play in sin whether we hold with Yeshua HaMashiach or not.

I sincerely admire and appreciate your testimony, IMJ! With all due respect, turning a blind eye to the Pharzite v. Shelanite distinction is respected. Paul made a comment that if it offends a brother to eat meat... then, don't eat meat. Yours is more an evangelistic perspective, with utmost and sincere respect, IMJ. There are scant few who wish to dine at this table of distinction.

If one wishes to "deride Jews as the group behind the evil of this world" begs the question... this ancestral 'Jewish' distinction. If you consider yourself a Jewish evangelist being a Messianic Jew, it would appear this Jewish distinction, Pharzite v. Shelanite, would be a fundamental component of your ministry. Chair, of Levite/Davidic ancestry, will find himself polarized within Judaism with Ben's notion the ancestral component of Jewishness is founded through Judah.

Chair claims Levitical/Davidic ancestry. I still respect his claim, but not sufficiently to probate Abraham's last will and testament (Genesis 25:5). Abraham's wife Keturah's sons, "the children of Keturah" (Genesis 25:4) received neither gifts as did Abraham's concubines (Genesis 25:6), nor did Keturah's sons partake in Abraham's funeral (Genesis 25:9). Judah's "Canaanitess" wife (1Chronicles 2:3) was the daughter of the Canaanite Shuah (Genesis 38:1, 2). Shuah, Judah's Canaanite father-in-law, was the 'son' of Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4), and Moses made this distinction affirmed by Ezra. Looking closely, Jesus made this same "seed" v. "children" distinction in John 8:37 KJV and John 8:39 KJV. Jesus went further to imply (John 8:15) His Shelanite detractors were the literal descendants of Cain, son of Satan in John 8:44 KJV. That those Shelanites were the descendants of Cain is readily deduced in Matthew 23:29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35... those Shelanites were descendants of who killed Abel (Matthew 23:35 KJV).

Do you think this resonates with Revelation 2:9, 3:9? Please reconsider Jesus' words in Luke:

Luke 12:49, 50, 51, 52, 53, KJV "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50) But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished! 51) Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay, but rather division: 52) For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53) The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."​

Aren't we discussing ancestry?

So... this is the ancestral distinction Chair needs to hear about. The Shelanites were impostor 'Jews' who gave the title a bad name, beginning with the crucifixion of an innocent Man. If Levitical/Davidic Jews are given a bad name... one needs to look no further than the Shelanites, descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife. The Shelanites instigated the crucifixion... the ancestral 'truth' will set one free from the lie the Shelanites bear the lineage to produce the messiah, and free from the lie Jesus, a Pharzite Jew, is an impostor.

It would be more appropriate for chair to ask Ben about the descendants of Judah... Shelanites v. Pharzites (Genesis 3:15 KJV).

kayaker

 

[IMJerusha]

I sincerely admire and appreciate your testimony, IMJ! With all due respect, turning a blind eye to the Pharzite v. Shelanite distinction is respected. Paul made a comment that if it offends a brother to eat meat... then, don't eat meat. Yours is more an evangelistic perspective, with utmost and sincere respect, IMJ. There are scant few who wish to dine at this table of distinction.

I don't look at it as turning a blind eye but rather turning my eye upon Yeshua as opposed to man. As regards evangelism, we are all called to this.

If one wishes to "deride Jews as the group behind the evil of this world" begs the question... this ancestral 'Jewish' distinction. If you consider yourself a Jewish evangelist being a Messianic Jew, it would appear this Jewish distinction, Pharzite v. Shelanite, would be a fundamental component of your ministry.

Pharzite v. Shelanite via Karaite? No, thank you. And considering the fact that in Yeshua there is no Jew or Gentile, my only need within ministry is to point Him out, as that is the only distinction that matters to God.

Chair, of Levite/Davidic ancestry, will find himself polarized within Judaism with Ben's notion the ancestral component of Jewishness is founded through Judah.

Chair claims Levitical/Davidic ancestry. I still respect his claim, but not sufficiently to probate Abraham's last will and testament (Genesis 25:5). Abraham's wife Keturah's sons, "the children of Keturah" (Genesis 25:4) received neither gifts as did Abraham's concubines (Genesis 25:6), nor did Keturah's sons partake in Abraham's funeral (Genesis 25:9). Judah's "Canaanitess" wife (1Chronicles 2:3) was the daughter of the Canaanite Shuah (Genesis 38:1, 2). Shuah, Judah's Canaanite father-in-law, was the 'son' of Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4), and Moses made this distinction affirmed by Ezra. Looking closely, Jesus made this same "seed" v. "children" distinction in John 8:37 KJV and John 8:39 KJV. Jesus went further to imply (John 8:15) His Shelanite detractors were the literal descendants of Cain, son of Satan in John 8:44 KJV. That those Shelanites were the descendants of Cain is readily deduced in Matthew 23:29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35... those Shelanites were descendants of who killed Abel (Matthew 23:35 KJV).

Do you think this resonates with Revelation 2:9, 3:9? Please reconsider Jesus' words in Luke:

Luke 12:49, 50, 51, 52, 53, KJV "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50) But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished! 51) Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay, but rather division: 52) For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53) The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."​

Aren't we discussing ancestry?

So... this is the ancestral distinction Chair needs to hear about. The Shelanites were impostor 'Jews' who gave the title a bad name, beginning with the crucifixion of an innocent Man. If Levitical/Davidic Jews are given a bad name... one needs to look no further than the Shelanites, descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife. The Shelanites instigated the crucifixion... the ancestral 'truth' will set one free from the lie the Shelanites bear the lineage to produce the messiah, and free from the lie Jesus, a Pharzite Jew, is an impostor.

It would be more appropriate for chair to ask Ben about the descendants of Judah... Shelanites v. Pharzites (Genesis 3:15 KJV).

kayaker

What I see is you and others making distinctions that need not, no, should not be made within the faith, but for the One. We all stand equally before the Throne in our filth, not one of us better than another. "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psalm 14:3 This being God's view of the children of men, ancestry has no bearing. What has bearing is faith and that has been God's point from the beginning.

 

[kayaker]

I don't look at it as turning a blind eye but rather turning my eye upon Yeshua as opposed to man. As regards evangelism, we are all called to this.



Pharzite v. Shelanite via Karaite? No, thank you. And considering the fact that in Yeshua there is no Jew or Gentile, my only need within ministry is to point Him out, as that is the only distinction that matters to God.



What I see is you and others making distinctions that need not, no, should not be made within the faith, but for the One. We all stand equally before the Throne in our filth, not one of us better than another. "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psalm 14:3 This being God's view of the children of men, ancestry has no bearing. What has bearing is faith and that has been God's point from the beginning.

I am indeed sincerely grateful for your entertaining my posts, IMJ. I'm not aware of anyone who considers Jewishness void of ethnicity. Chair's notion is Levite/Davidic, Yoh's is via Jacob and Judah, and Ben's is strictly through Judah... So much for the clarity on this topic... speaking of wandering in darkness.

Agreed entirely... ancestry, beyond the arrival of God's Son, is of no value. But, such is a moot argument with those who subscribe to and proclaim the racist notion of ancestral superiority and supremacy in the eyes of God. Only God's Son fulfilled this position, and He condemned no specific individual in His entire ministry.

Many Christians wandering in ancestral darkness subscribe to the ill-defined notion the Jews are God's chosen people. The Israelites were, God defined those people with surgical precision, while the Shelanites deluded the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus was an ancestral impostor... and, so it remains today.

Thank you again, IMJ... your faith is indeed entirely greater than mine.

kayaker

 

[IMJerusha]

I am indeed sincerely grateful for your entertaining my posts, IMJ. I'm not aware of anyone who considers Jewishness void of ethnicity. Chair's notion is Levite/Davidic, Yoh's is via Jacob and Judah, and Ben's is strictly through Judah... So much for the clarity on this topic... speaking of wandering in darkness.

I wouldn't say it's void of ethnicity. I would say that it can not be proven to any of the 12 tribes.

Agreed entirely... ancestry, beyond the arrival of God's Son, is of no value. But, such is a moot argument with those who subscribe to and proclaim the racist notion of ancestral superiority and supremacy in the eyes of God.

I don't believe Jews subscribe or proclaim anything the least bit racist. What they proclaim is that the Jews are God's chosen people and I don't find that to be racist.

Only God's Son fulfilled this position, and He condemned no specific individual in His entire ministry.

Fulfilled what position, that of superiority and supremacy? I just can not attach those descriptors to Yeshua who came to earth in such humble circumstances willing to serve both God and man.

Many Christians wandering in ancestral darkness subscribe to the ill-defined notion the Jews are God's chosen people. The Israelites were, God defined those people with surgical precision, while the Shelanites deluded the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus was an ancestral impostor... and, so it remains today.

As opposed to Christians who take upon themselves rights belonging solely to God?

Thank you again, IMJ... your faith is indeed entirely greater than mine.

I would have no clue about that because I can't see into your heart nor can you see into mine.

 

[Daniel1611]

Claiming to be "chosen" because of your DNA is racist. NO WHERE does the Bible support any such assertion. Further, the claims of todays "Jews" of "Jewish" ancestry are entirely unfounded. They have absolutely no proof that they are descended from the Hebrews any more than anyone else is. It's just something they were told. And being that every "Jew" I've ever met is as white as I am, I have my doubts. The Hebrews in the Bible were not white.

Race and ethnicity and nationality don't matter. God is no respecter of persons and nether should we be. The whole world is of one blood. What matters is whether or not one believes on Jesus Christ.

 

[IMJerusha]

Claiming to be "chosen" because of your DNA is racist. NO WHERE does the Bible support any such assertion. Further, the claims of todays "Jews" of "Jewish" ancestry are entirely unfounded. They have absolutely no proof that they are descended from the Hebrews any more than anyone else is. It's just something they were told. And being that every "Jew" I've ever met is as white as I am, I have my doubts. The Hebrews in the Bible were not white.

Race and ethnicity and nationality don't matter. God is no respecter of persons and nether should we be. The whole world is of one blood. What matters is whether or not one believes on Jesus Christ.

"But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY." 1 Peter 2:9-10

I wonder where Peter got that notion?

 

[Daniel1611]

"But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY." 1 Peter 2:9-10

I wonder where Peter got that notion?

And Peter was talking about who? Jews? No. He was talking about people who believe on Jesus Christ. People who believe on Christ are God's chosen people regardless of their race or ethnicity. And people that reject Christ are condemned already, regardless of their race or ethnicity. It's a very clear concept in the Bible. There are no scriptures that support this racist garbage spouted by Bible-hating Zionists.

 

[kayaker]

I wouldn't say it's void of ethnicity. I would say that it can not be proven to any of the 12 tribes.

The proof is in the ancestry of Jesus, IMJ. And, that's what the "Jews" refute, but can't seem to locate their birth records: Levite/Davidic... Jacob/Judah... Judah via his Canaanite wife, or Tamar. Matthew laid it out in Matthew 1 with particular emphasis on Matthew 1:3 KJV. Luke took the generations of Jesus all the way back to Almighty God in Luke 3:23-38... all 77 prophesied generations, thereof (Genesis 4:24 KJV). The Jews ordained the Pharzite David as king suggesting Judah married Tamar, if my memory serves me. Well, why don't they throw a little white-wash on Jesus, too? Does the title hypocrite come to mind in Matthew 23:13, 14, 15, 23, 25, 27? Jesus was no pacifist, IMJ.

I don't believe Jews subscribe or proclaim anything the least bit racist. What they proclaim is that the Jews are God's chosen people and I don't find that to be racist.

Daniel1611 brought forth some interesting posts/points from the Talmud. Are you including Talmudic Jews in your title, "Jews"? The Talmudic Jews teach Ham sodomized Noah and castrated him... and, and that Ham's son Cush was "smitten" with black skin as a consequence. Talmudic Jews sound pretty racist. Again... are you including Talmudic Jews in your title? "They" can proclaim that the "Jews are God's chosen people..." Racist or not, such claim is restricted exclusively to the Israelites according to Moses speaking directly to the Israelites in Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9. Israelites were distinctly an ancestral people (Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, Ezra 9:1, 2). Can you offer such ancestral distinction within the title, Jew? Chair, Yoh, and Ben need to make up my mind.

Fulfilled what position, that of superiority and supremacy? I just can not attach those descriptors to Yeshua who came to earth in such humble circumstances willing to serve both God and man.

I can appreciate where you're coming from, IMJ. It may come as a surprise that Jesus never said, "I forgive you." Jesus usually said "Thy sins be forgiven thee..." And, He typically included, "Thy faith hath made thee whole." Jesus also said, "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:11 KJV), circumventing forgiveness the adulteress never asked for. I think we'll see the other side of Jesus when He turns those harvest angels loose again, speaking of the wheat and the tares.

As opposed to Christians who take upon themselves rights belonging solely to God?

.

Jesus did say:

John 14:1, 2, 3, 4, KJV "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."​

Sounds to me if one expects to sit at the table in the big house... well? I kinda get the impression my flesh belongs to Satan, and my soul belongs to God, with my adoption papers signed in Jesus' Pharzite Jewish blood. Evidently, the discernment of Revelation 2:9, 3:9 escapes you... you're in good company!

I would have no clue about that because I can't see into your heart nor can you see into mine.

If I recall correctly, you professed your faith in Jesus in one of your posts. Was I mistaken? I was taking you at your word. With all due respect for faith and believing, respectfully IMJ... how do you KNOW Jesus is Messiah? The Jews KNOW He isn't (John 8:41 KJV). How do you Scripturally refute their claim from the OT?

kayaker

 

[IMJerusha]

And Peter was talking about who? Jews? No. He was talking about people who believe on Jesus Christ. People who believe on Christ are God's chosen people regardless of their race or ethnicity. And people that reject Christ are condemned already, regardless of their race or ethnicity. It's a very clear concept in the Bible. There are no scriptures that support this racist garbage spouted by Bible-hating Zionists.

Peter was talking about Jews as well as Gentiles...all believers. There is no racist garbage...only the Faith of those who believe in the One True God of Israel.

 

[IMJerusha]

The proof is in the ancestry of Jesus, IMJ. And, that's what the "Jews" refute, but can't seem to locate their birth records: Levite/Davidic... Jacob/Judah... Judah via his Canaanite wife, or Tamar. Matthew laid it out in Matthew 1 with particular emphasis on Matthew 1:3 KJV. Luke took the generations of Jesus all the way back to Almighty God in Luke 3:23-38... all 77 prophesied generations, thereof (Genesis 4:24 KJV). The Jews ordained the Pharzite David as king suggesting Judah married Tamar, if my memory serves me. Well, why don't they throw a little white-wash on Jesus, too? Does the title hypocrite come to mind in Matthew 23:13, 14, 15, 23, 25, 27? Jesus was no pacifist, IMJ.

Daniel1611 brought forth some interesting posts/points from the Talmud. Are you including Talmudic Jews in your title, "Jews"? The Talmudic Jews teach Ham sodomized Noah and castrated him... and, and that Ham's son Cush was "smitten" with black skin as a consequence. Talmudic Jews sound pretty racist. Again... are you including Talmudic Jews in your title? "They" can proclaim that the "Jews are God's chosen people..." Racist or not, such claim is restricted exclusively to the Israelites according to Moses speaking directly to the Israelites in Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9. Israelites were distinctly an ancestral people (Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, Ezra 9:1, 2). Can you offer such ancestral distinction within the title, Jew? Chair, Yoh, and Ben need to make up my mind.



I can appreciate where you're coming from, IMJ. It may come as a surprise that Jesus never said, "I forgive you." Jesus usually said "Thy sins be forgiven thee..." And, He typically included, "Thy faith hath made thee whole." Jesus also said, "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:11 KJV), circumventing forgiveness the adulteress never asked for. I think we'll see the other side of Jesus when He turns those harvest angels loose again, speaking of the wheat and the tares.

.

Jesus did say:

John 14:1, 2, 3, 4, KJV "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."​

Sounds to me if one expects to sit at the table in the big house... well? I kinda get the impression my flesh belongs to Satan, and my soul belongs to God, with my adoption papers signed in Jesus' Pharzite Jewish blood. Evidently, the discernment of Revelation 2:9, 3:9 escapes you... you're in good company!



If I recall correctly, you professed your faith in Jesus in one of your posts. Was I mistaken? I was taking you at your word. With all due respect for faith and believing, respectfully IMJ... how do you KNOW Jesus is Messiah? The Jews KNOW He isn't (John 8:41 KJV). How do you Scripturally refute their claim from the OT?

kayaker

You want me to label and point fingers of disdain and condemnation at people like you do? Sorry. And you have the audacity to imply that if I don't, I'm not a believer in Yeshua or that I am somehow lacking because I do not apply the same meanings to Scripture that you do. Obviously, the discernment of the Ruach does not escape me and yes, I am in good company.

 

[kayaker]

You want me to label and point fingers of disdain and condemnation at people like you do? Sorry. And you have the audacity to imply that if I don't, I'm not a believer in Yeshua or that I am somehow lacking because I do not apply the same meanings to Scripture that you do. Obviously, the discernment of the Ruach does not escape me and yes, I am in good company.

Chair, Yoh, and Ben can't seem to come to a consensus on the ethnicity of Jewishness. Have you? I agree with Jesus pointing the finger at those impostor Pharisees in Matthew 23, among other places.

I'm not suggesting that you are lacking in faith, IMJ. I stated your faith is greater than mine. I'm also stating that you have been unable to discern Revelation 2:9, 3:9... you are in good company! Neither have Chair, Yoh, or Ben... while they refute the divinity of Jesus. I'll take your faith any day over their confusion, but I won't placate them on some unfounded, racist ancestral claim. Their ancestral arrogance ended with the arrival of the Pharzite Jesus, and the Shelanites instigated the crucifixion of an innocent Man (John 8:37 KJV)... just like their flesh ancestor premeditated the murder of an innocent man (John 8:38 KJV, Genesis 4:8 KJV).

What blood are they going to put on their doorposts when those reaper angels return? That spotless, unblemished sacrificial lamb won't work the next time... unless it is THE Lamb, as God so told Abraham when he was about to sacrifice Isaac.

kayaker

 

[patrick jane]

Chair, Yoh, and Ben can't seem to come to a consensus on the ethnicity of Jewishness. Have you? I agree with Jesus pointing the finger at those impostor Pharisees in Matthew 23, among other places.

I'm not suggesting that you are lacking in faith, IMJ. I stated your faith is greater than mine. I'm also stating that you have been unable to discern Revelation 2:9, 3:9... you are in good company! Neither have Chair, Yoh, or Ben... while they refute the divinity of Jesus. I'll take your faith any day over their confusion, but I won't placate them on some unfounded, racist ancestral claim. Their ancestral arrogance ended with the arrival of the Pharzite Jesus, and the Shelanites instigated the crucifixion of an innocent Man (John 8:37 KJV)... just like their flesh ancestor premeditated the murder of an innocent man (John 8:38 KJV, Genesis 4:8 KJV).

What blood are they going to put on their doorposts when those reaper angels return? That spotless, unblemished sacrificial lamb won't work the next time... unless it is THE Lamb, as God so told Abraham when he was about to sacrifice Isaac.

kayaker

all the OT Jews should read my new thread. and look up Grace Ambassadors - Justin Johnson - The Mystery of Christ. it's all about Israel. it's only a 58 minute video. he does not talk or act like a preacher. go ahead, i dare you to check it out. it may help you discount Christianity. or not atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

Chair, Yoh, and Ben can't seem to come to a consensus on the ethnicity of Jewishness. Have you? I agree with Jesus pointing the finger at those impostor Pharisees in Matthew 23, among other places.

I'm not suggesting that you are lacking in faith, IMJ. I stated your faith is greater than mine. I'm also stating that you have been unable to discern Revelation 2:9, 3:9... you are in good company! Neither have Chair, Yoh, or Ben... while they refute the divinity of Jesus. I'll take your faith any day over their confusion, but I won't placate them on some unfounded, racist ancestral claim. Their ancestral arrogance ended with the arrival of the Pharzite Jesus, and the Shelanites instigated the crucifixion of an innocent Man (John 8:37 KJV)... just like their flesh ancestor premeditated the murder of an innocent man (John 8:38 KJV, Genesis 4:8 KJV).

What blood are they going to put on their doorposts when those reaper angels return? That spotless, unblemished sacrificial lamb won't work the next time... unless it is THE Lamb, as God so told Abraham when he was about to sacrifice Isaac.

kayaker

all the OT Jews should read my new thread. and look up Grace Ambassadors - Justin Johnson - The Mystery of Christ. it's all about Israel. it's only a 58 minute video. he does not talk or act like a preacher. go ahead, i dare you to check it out. it may help you discount Christianity. or not atrol: - :cheers:

 

[chair]

Thanks for humoring me, IMJ. ..
Do note IMJ: Chair's ancestral aspect of being Jewish is predicated on Levitical/Davidic ancestry. Ben's ancestral aspect of being Jewish is predicated on the main stem of Judah. Yoh shifts from foot to foot. Ironically, God's 'chosen people' were distinctly Israelites, before the title 'Jew' made print... said 'chosen people' were Israelites, collectively, in Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8 before the conquest of the Promised Land. Evidently (obviously), there's a Jewish consensus that ancestry is at least a component of being Jewish... However, the contrast between chair's ancestral notion (at least Levitical/Davidic), and Ben's notion of ancestral notion (via Judah), we now find a breach in consensus on the ancestral component of being Jewish.
...

The modern people called "Jews" are called so because they are mostly descended from the tribe of Judah. They are not exclusively from the tribe of Judah, however. If you walk into a synagogue, you will find that there are also Levites and Priests (who are a sub-group of Levites). There are a few special things that these Jews do: the first readings of the Torah scroll are reserved for them, and the priests bless the congregation (the later is spelled out in the Old Testament).

There are also those who joined the Jewish People, or the descendants of those who did in the past. But you would have no way of knowing who they are.

There is no "break in the concensus", as you would have it.

In prayers we refer to ourselves as "Yisrael", or "Bnei Yisrael"- the Hebrew term for what in English is called "Israelites".