Jesus the Man Before John !

beloved57

Well-known member
That the Lord Jesus Christ was a Man before the incarnation and birth out of the virgin Mary, is seen when we carefully weigh the words of John the Baptist here Jn 1:29-31

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Now notice in Vs 30 the phrase "After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

The object here is a man, and John states these 3 things about this particular man, That this man comes after him, and is preferred before him, and he [the man] was before him !

Now we know from other scripture that John the Baptist in regards to his physical birth by his Mother, that he is six months older than Jesus and so , in that regard John is not speaking of.Lk 1:34-36

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

But John does acknowledge that Jesus Christ was a Man before Him.

In fact, when John said the he was preferred before him, that word is the greek word ginomai and means:

I.
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

II.
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

John knew that The Man Jesus Christ was that Man of God's Right Hand, the Son of Man Ps 80:17

17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Also in connection with that, John knew that Christ, the Man coming as a Bridegroom for His Bride Jn 3:29

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Now Jesus was the Man Christ Jesus, the Mediaror between God and Men before the foundation 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now for this to be True, Adam , who was the beginning of Men, had to have the Man Christ Jesus as the Mediator between God and Men !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediator Being 1 Tim 2:5 as the Son of God, did delight in the sons of men [the Election of Grace] before the Creation of the World Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

I believe this is linked to Pauls comment here Acts 17:26

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The places and times of the Elect of God had been predetermined, where they would make their dwellings and the time in Human History.

Again, who are these Sons of Men in particular in Prov 8:31 ? We have stated before they are the Elect, but they also are His Members, the Church, in fact they are the members of the Church of the Firstborn which are written in Heaven Heb 12:23

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Lord Jesus Christ before all things, existed as the Firstborn of the Church Col 1:17-18

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Whats the Firstborn from the Dead ? This denotes His Resurrection from the dead, but not literally, for He had not yet came into the World, for it was not yet Created, and died, however, Just as He was in the Eternal Purpose slain from the foundation of the World 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8 He was also from the Eternal Purpose the Firstborn from the Dead before all Creation, and the Head of the Church before all Creation.

These are the Ones the Father Loved, Chose them in His Beloved Son, they were gave to Him, those whom He was appointed Surety and Head in behalf of in the Everlasting Covenant. They are those whose Names were Written in the Lambs Book of Life, as His Bride, before the Foundation, that's why He delighted in them Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

His delight was for them as a Bridegroom for His Bride Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Remember also this Mystery Eph 5:31-32

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Who has more of the Love, tender passionate affection from a Man than His Wife ? Whom more in the Providence of God does God provide for a Mans delight ? Prov 5:18-19

18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

Its those He delighted in and Purposed to bring to Glory with Him Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
We know that Christ existed First as the Last Adam or Heavenly Man, and that adam the earthy was made after His Image and Likeness, he was patterned after Him who was in Heaven, for that's a Divine principle. Now there is the Adam earthy and Heavenly as per 1 Cor 15:45-49

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now please notice verses 46-47 Adam first is natural and earthy and the Last Adam is Spiritual and Heavenly [see Jesus words Jn 8:23 ]

Now Christ is the Creator of Adam earthy Col 1:16

16 For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him[Christ]:

Now lets look at how we derive this principle of the earthy being patterned after the heavenly Heb 8:4-5

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Adam was a shadow, a figure of heavenly things !

Heb 9:23-24

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

And then Paul tells us that Adam was the earthy figure of Him [Christ] to come Rom 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This does confirm what is indicated, that the earthy adam was Created by the Heaveny God Man Mediator Christ Jesus, after His Image and Likeness Gen 1:26, for this must be if we follow the rule of pattern laid down in Heb 8:4-5;9:23-24

And that in all things Christ has the preeminence Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now that would not be true if adam from the ground was a Man before Christ the Mediator !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Was Jesus Christ Created ?

Was Jesus Christ Created ?

Was Jesus Christ Created ? The answer is absolutely Yes,He was Created or we can say He was begotten, that He did have a derived Existence. Now, I already know my enemies are going to use this what i am about to say against me, and claim by it that I deny the Deity of Christ or that He is God, but by no means do i deny that, because Jesus is also 100 % Very God as much as the Father, and within the Divine Essence of the Godhead He as the Father has a underived, uncreated, unbegotten, Self Existence along with the The Holy Ghost as well !

However, there is yet another part of His Being that was Created or derived an Existence out of the Father, hence He has titles like Col 1:15

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The word firstborn is the greek word prōtotokos and means:

I.the firstborn
A.
of man or beast

B.
of Christ, the first born of all creation

first-born, eldest.

Now the word is actually Two words #1 prōtos which means:

I.
first in time or place
A.
in any succession of things or persons


II.
first in rank
A.
influence, honour

B.
chief

C.
principal


III.
first, at the first

This is why He said to be before all things Col 1:17

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

He existed as God's Creation before all other things that would be Created !

The other word #2 is tiktō and means:

I.to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
A.
of a woman giving birth

B.
of the earth bringing forth its fruits

C.
metaph. to bear, bring forth

He was the very first produced, brought forth !

The word produce itself denotes Creation, for our english dictionary defines it as:

to create, bring forth, or yield offspring, products,

And finally He is said to be the firstborn of every creature, the word creature being the greek word ktisis and means:

I.the act of founding, establishing, building etc
A.
the act of creating, creation

B.
creation i.e. thing created
i.
of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
a.
anything created

So this verse in Col 1:15 is evidence that in some capacity the Lord Jesus Christ was Created before all things else were Created.

Another verse that collaborates this thought is Rev 3:14

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Its plain and simple that He is Identifying Himself as the Beginning of the Creation of God, or the Firstborn of Every Creature as in Col 1:15 !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Was Jesus Christ Created ?2

Was Jesus Christ Created ?2

Now when was Jesus Christ Created and why ? The Lord Jesus Christ was Created before the World began, in order to partake in the Creation of the World, for again, it was made by Him and for Him Col 1:16.

We find that Jesus Christ was Created here Prov 8:22

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

First I will say that this is Christ the Wisdom of God speaking 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

And He says the Lord possessed Him in the beginning of His Way, the word possessed here giving us the first hint of Him being a Creation, for its the hebrew word qanah :

get, acquire, create, buy, possess
A.
(Qal)
i.
to get, acquire, obtain
a.
of God originating, creating, redeeming His people

The NIV reads:

"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

Thats quite similar to Him being the Firstborn of Creation Col 1:15 where the word firstborn is made up of two greek words, one being tiktō which means:

I.to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
A.
of a woman giving birth

B.
of the earth bringing forth its fruits

C.
metaph. to bear, bring forth

The Holman Christian Standard Bible reads:

The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.

The ISV reads:

"The LORD made me as he began his planning, before his ancient activity commenced.

The NET reads:

The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

The Aramaic Bible in Plain English reads:

“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”

The Septuagint reads :

The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.

This is crucial because it establishes the fact that He was Created before all Things to assist in the Work of Creation !

Now I am going to make this point clear, this Character of Jesus Christ being Created, was not His Deity as God, I repeat this has nothing to do with His Being as the Uncreated Word of God Jn 1:1 which is His Deity as God, but this only has to do with His Begotten Sonship and the Mediator Man 1 Tim 2:5 and as the Last Adam and the Head of His Body the Church 1 Cor 15:45-47

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

In this character He was Created with His Bride the Church in Him Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And that is why when He Created Adam in His Image and Likeness, Adam was Created with His Bride in him, which was Eve, and called their Name Adam Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Thats why Adam was the Head of his wife, even so as it pictured that Christ in Heaven was Created as the Head of His Wife the Church and called Christ !

Hence as there was No Adam without Eve in him, Neither was there No Christ without the Church, His Eve in Him !

I already know this is a Truth that will not be received by the natural man, for it cannot be !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Why is Jesus called the Second Man?

Quantrill

You have evaded all of my two previous posts, and now want me to go into more detail, nothing doing until you respond to what I have already took time to explain and review those points with me ! Thanks !
 

Caino

Well-known member
This may help:

From my religion, the UB revelation.


Self-Distribution of the First Source and Center​

(108.4) 10:1.1 It would seem that the Father, back in eternity, inaugurated a policy of profound self-distribution. There is inherent in the selfless, loving, and lovable nature of the Universal Father something which causes him to reserve to himself the exercise of only those powers and that authority which he apparently finds it impossible to delegate or to bestow.

(108.5) 10:1.2 The Universal Father all along has divested himself of every part of himself that was bestowable on any other Creator or creature. He has delegated to his divine Sons and their associated intelligences every power and all authority that could be delegated. He has actually transferred to his Sovereign Sons, in their respective universes, every prerogative of administrative authority that was transferable. In the affairs of a local universe, he has made each Sovereign Creator Son just as perfect, competent, and authoritative as is the Eternal Son in the original and central universe. He has given away, actually bestowed, with the dignity and sanctity of personality possession, all of himself and all of his attributes, everything he possibly could divest himself of, in every way, in every age, in every place, and to every person, and in every universe except that of his central indwelling.

(109.1) 10:1.3 Divine personality is not self-centered; self-distribution and sharing of personality characterize divine freewill selfhood. Creatures crave association with other personal creatures; Creators are moved to share divinity with their universe children; the personality of the Infinite is disclosed as the Universal Father, who shares reality of being and equality of self with two co-ordinate personalities, the Eternal Son and the Conjoint Actor.

(109.2) 10:1.4 For knowledge concerning the Father’s personality and divine attributes we will always be dependent on the revelations of the Eternal Son, for when the conjoint act of creation was effected, when the Third Person of Deity sprang into personality existence and executed the combined concepts of his divine parents, the Father ceased to exist as the unqualified personality. With the coming into being of the Conjoint Actor and the materialization of the central core of creation, certain eternal changes took place. God gave himself as an absolute personality to his Eternal Son. Thus does the Father bestow the “personality of infinity” upon his only-begotten Son, while they both bestow the “conjoint personality” of their eternal union upon the Infinite Spirit.

(109.3) 10:1.5 For these and other reasons beyond the concept of the finite mind, it is exceedingly difficult for the human creature to comprehend God’s infinite father-personality except as it is universally revealed in the Eternal Son and, with the Son, is universally active in the Infinite Spirit.

(109.4) 10:1.6 Since the Paradise Sons of God visit the evolutionary worlds and sometimes even there dwell in the likeness of mortal flesh, and since these bestowals make it possible for mortal man actually to know something of the nature and character of divine personality, therefore must the creatures of the planetary spheres look to the bestowals of these Paradise Sons for reliable and trustworthy information regarding the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
 

Caino

Well-known member
caino



You reading post 4 and 5 will help, then reviewing with me the points made, hows that ?

I did read them, The evolved religion of Judaism contaminates the religion of Jesus. Adam himself was an incarnate son, but he was full grown, translated to the evolved, populated earth. While the creator Son is conscious of being ancestral to the I AM, there never was a time when he did not exist.

It would be accurate to say Satan was created in time, betrayed his sacred trust, mislead and was defeated, but the son is eternal.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I did read them, The evolved religion of Judaism contaminates the religion of Jesus. Adam himself was an incarnate son, but he was full grown, translated to the evolved, populated earth. While the creator Son is conscious of being ancestral to the I AM, there never was a time when he did not exist.

It would be accurate to say Satan was created in time, betrayed his sacred trust, mislead and was defeated, but the son is eternal.

If you have read them, then please read and review them with me !

Posted from the TOL App!
 

Quantrill

New member
You have evaded all of my two previous posts, and now want me to go into more detail, nothing doing until you respond to what I have already took time to explain and review those points with me ! Thanks !

No, I read them. You simply quoted the verse that Christ is the Second Man.

So what?

Im asking you why is Christ called the Second Man.

Im aware that you will hide behind your several posts and try and indicate that you explained it already. But you haven't. And anyone can read and see you haven't.

You produce a mass amount of posts to provide a smoke screen. A place to hide. If you have explained it, prove me wrong and show me where.

Why is Christ called the Second Adam? Of course if you don't know what you are talking about, just tell me to look for it in your posts.

Quantrill
 

beloved57

Well-known member
No, I read them. You simply quoted the verse that Christ is the Second Man.

So what?

Im asking you why is Christ called the Second Man.

Im aware that you will hide behind your several posts and try and indicate that you explained it already. But you haven't. And anyone can read and see you haven't.

You produce a mass amount of posts to provide a smoke screen. A place to hide. If you have explained it, prove me wrong and show me where.

Why is Christ called the Second Adam? Of course if you don't know what you are talking about, just tell me to look for it in your posts.

Quantrill

That's all you saw in those two posts ? Yes you are a evader !

Posted from the TOL App!
 

1Mind1Spirit

BANNED
Banned
That's all you saw in those two posts ? Yes you are a evader !

Posted from the TOL App!

They believe in evolution and life on other planets.

You done good bro.

Adam was the figure of Him who was to come.

Revelation 19:10 KJV
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
 

Quantrill

New member
That's all you saw in those two posts ? Yes you are a evader !

Posted from the TOL App!

Im not evading. Im asking. Consider me ignorant. But tell me why Christ is called the Second Man. I don't see you explaining it anywhere.

Surely you want me and others to know?

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

New member
beloved57

Your post #1 gives no mention of Christ as the Second Man.

Your post #2 gives no mention of Christ as the Second Man.

Your post #3 gives the verse which declares Christ as the Second Man but you give no explanation. You speak of Christ as the Last Adam, but even here you don't explain why Christ is called the Last Adam.

Your post #4 gives no mention or explanation of why Christ is called the Second Man or the Last Adam.

Your post #5 gives the Scripture again which declares Christ as the Second Man, but no explanation of why He is called the Second Man is given.

If I missed it, please show me where. Why is Christ called the Last Adam and Second Man?

Quantrill
 

Nanja

Well-known member
The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediator Being 1 Tim 2:5 as the Son of God, did delight in the sons of men [the Election of Grace] before the Creation of the World Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

I believe this is linked to Pauls comment here Acts 17:26

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The places and times of the Elect of God had been predetermined, where they would make their dwellings and the time in Human History.

Again, who are these Sons of Men in particular in Prov 8:31 ? We have stated before they are the Elect, but they also are His Members, the Church, in fact they are the members of the Church of the Firstborn which are written in Heaven Heb 12:23

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Lord Jesus Christ before all things, existed as the Firstborn of the Church Col 1:17-18

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Whats the Firstborn from the Dead ? This denotes His Resurrection from the dead, but not literally, for He had not yet came into the World, for it was not yet Created, and died, however, Just as He was in the Eternal Purpose slain from the foundation of the World 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8 He was also from the Eternal Purpose the Firstborn from the Dead before all Creation, and the Head of the Church before all Creation.

These are the Ones the Father Loved, Chose them in His Beloved Son, they were gave to Him, those whom He was appointed Surety and Head in behalf of in the Everlasting Covenant. They are those whose Names were Written in the Lambs Book of Life, as His Bride, before the Foundation, that's why He delighted in them Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

His delight was for them as a Bridegroom for His Bride Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Remember also this Mystery Eph 5:31-32

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Who has more of the Love, tender passionate affection from a Man than His Wife ? Whom more in the Providence of God does God provide for a Mans delight ? Prov 5:18-19

18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

Its those He delighted in and Purposed to bring to Glory with Him Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


That's an amazing fact, and precious to those who Love Him (Mat. 22:37 KJV)... that
He rejoiced and delighted, and I believe even determined, the precise plot of land on
this Earth where His Elect would live. For they are the apple of His eye ! (Psalm 17:8 KJV)

~~~~~
 

beloved57

Well-known member
That's an amazing fact, and precious to those who Love Him (Mat. 22:37 KJV)... that
He rejoiced and delighted, and I believe even determined, the precise plot of land on
this Earth where His Elect would live. For they are the apple of His eye ! (Psalm 17:8 KJV)

~~~~~

Amen !

Posted from the TOL App!
 
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