Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[Jerry Shugart]

Eph4:6 One God and Father of all, who is
above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Cor.8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; 6yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Cor.8:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Albert Barnes says:

"One God, the Father - Whom we acknowledge as the Father of all; Author of all things; and who sustains to all his works the relation of a father. The word 'Father' here is not used as applicable to the first person of the Trinity, as distinguished from the second, but is applied to God as God; not as the Father in contradistinction from the Son, but to the divine nature as such, without reference to that distinction - the Father as distinguished from his offspring, the works that owe their origin to him" (Barnes'Notes on the Bible, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 8:6).​

The following verse speaks of the Father as the Creator of Mankind:

"But now, O LORD (JWHW), thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isa.64:8).​

Here we read that JHWH is our Father and He is the Potter who created mankind. The Author of Hebrews makes it plain that the Lord Jesus is the Potter:

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Heb.1:10).​

We can understand thatthe Lord Jesus is JHWH because the following verse parallels Hebrews 1:10:

"The burden of the word of the LORD (JHWH) for Israel, saith the LORD (JHWH), which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech.12:1).​

The only reason that the Lord Jesus could say the following is because He is indeed JHWH the Father:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (Jn.14:9).​

All this explains what we read here about the Lord Jesus:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The Everlasting Father is the Mighty God, and the Mighty God is JHWH, as witnessed by what is said here:

" Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD (JHWH) of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

 

[freelight]

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Cor.8:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Albert Barnes says:

"One God, the Father - Whom we acknowledge as the Father of all; Author of all things; and who sustains to all his works the relation of a father. The word 'Father' here is not used as applicable to the first person of the Trinity, as distinguished from the second, but is applied to God as God; not as the Father in contradistinction from the Son, but to the divine nature as such, without reference to that distinction - the Father as distinguished from his offspring, the works that owe their origin to him" (Barnes'Notes on the Bible, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 8:6).​

The following verse speaks of the Father as the Creator of Mankind:

"But now, O LORD (JWHW), thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isa.64:8).​

Here we read that JHWH is our Father and He is the Potter who created mankind. The Author of Hebrews makes it plain that the Lord Jesus is the Potter:

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Heb.1:10).​

We can understand thatthe Lord Jesus is JHWH because the following verse parallels Hebrews 1:10:

"The burden of the word of the LORD (JHWH) for Israel, saith the LORD (JHWH), which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech.12:1).​

The only reason that the Lord Jesus could say the following is because He is indeed JHWH the Father:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (Jn.14:9).​

All this explains what we read here about the Lord Jesus:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The Everlasting Father is the Mighty God, and the Mighty God is JHWH, as witnessed by what is said here:

" Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD (JHWH) of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

God the Father still has primacy as the First Source and Center of things and beings, the Progenitor of all. All means all,..including all gods, angels and mortals,....all sentient beings. We are to worship most truly only the Infinite Father, who is incorporeal, truly infinite, the absolute reality, source and origin of all that exists, all that is. God is Spirit. Jesus as the way, truth and life, is always pointing us Godward, to that Original Supreme Being, THE FATHER of lights, the Father of spirits, the Father of all.

 

[freelight]

Certainly does, seeing as the head of Christ is God!

Indeed, since the Father is the FATHER of all. One God and Father, over all, in all, thru all. One Infinite Spirit-Father-Mother...is the PARENT of all that is begotten, all its offspring. There is only One SOURCE. This is true Monotheism.

 

[Nihilo]

Then explain how Jehovah can be talking to the Messiah in Psalm 110, and how Jehovah can be anointing Jesus and sending him in Isaiah 61:1,2. I don't know why you refuse to answer this, as I've asked you and others before.

If you understood the doctrine of the Most Holy and Most Blessed and Undivided Trinity, you wouldn't ask such questions, just being frank with you. I'm not scolding you; just letting you know.

 

[drbrumley]

I sense tricky question.

Everything is a trick to her....but I can understand why she doesn't want to answer. It destroys her belief she has built up thru her own devices...

 

[drbrumley]

It has been explained to you what it says.

No, you explained your opinion on what it says. Under what authority can you say the verse in question is what it means? I can say without question, under the authority of God, the verse means exactly what it says.

Jehovah is the Savior in Isaiah and Jesus is said to be the Savior in Titus' letter.

I will note the qualifier, "is said to be." which might give me reason to say you doubt your own words.
But yes, Jehovah is the Savior in Isaiah and Jesus is the Savior in Titus' letter. That is what it says. We both agree to that, but then you go on with this convoluted story below:

Why is that? As it has been explained: Jehovah is the SOURCE of all power and authority, and it was His plan that Jesus come to Earth. Therefore, He is the source of mankind's salvation. Jesus' sacrifice is the means by which Jehovah saves. Therefore, technically Jesus can be called the Savior because it was his life that was sacrificed. But "Savior" is also what Jehovah is because He set the plan in motion and SENT Jesus down here.

Jehovah is the SOURCE of all power and authority,

Yes

and it was His plan that Jesus come to Earth.

Yes

Jesus' sacrifice is the means by which Jehovah saves.

Yes, although I firmly believe you have NO IDEA what that means.

Therefore, technically Jesus can be called the Savior because it was his life that was sacrificed.

Technically? So we have two saviors then? God and then Jesus.

This is where your warped theology takes you. Instead of 1 savior, we have 2.

Just curious, did the blood of bulls and goats ever save a person?

But "Savior" is also what Jehovah is because He set the plan in motion and SENT Jesus down here.

Nice story....so there you have it folks, we have 2 saviors. I suppose he/she will enlighten us next that the blood of bulls and goats saved people at one time.

Catch up, drumbum. You're way behind.

Seems I am not the one behind, but you Your Smugness

 

[drbrumley]

Neither Jesus nor Jehovah will literally stand on the Mt. of Olives. It is a metaphorical situation, merely highlighting the reality of Jehovah's interaction with the events on the Earth. To think that He will literally set foot on the Earth is reducing the magnificent, glorious God that is unbounded by any limits, to the restrictions of a physical man. Your view is astoundingly narrow.

Wow, you really believe the spin...

 

[drbrumley]

Hey, remember me? I already explained to you that it reads in the Greek EXACTLY AS YOU POSTED ABOVE. No commas or any other punctuation. You didn't know that? YOU are failing miserably.

want to thank a great father and a great man, Mr. [MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION].

See what I did there.....you utterly just can't grasp the concept can you? I am speaking of one person, not 2.

looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the words of the great Unitarian and our poster [MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION]."

Hows that for emphasis

Oh lookie there, I didn't even need a comma [MENTION=17493]KingdomRose[/MENTION] your smugness

 

[meshak]

If you understood the doctrine of the Most Holy and Most Blessed and Undivided Trinity, you wouldn't ask such questions, just being frank with you. I'm not scolding you; just letting you know.

you are pin head.

 

[freelight]

you are pin head.

Oh be nice meshak,...even pinheads can know the Trinity :crackup:

O spank u!

 

[meshak]

Oh be nice meshak,...even pinheads can know the Trinity :crackup:

O spank u!

Nihilo called me pinhead and I thought that was a cute name. So I used it on him

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are to worship most truly only the Infinite Father, who is incorporeal, truly infinite, the absolute reality, source and origin of all that exists, all that is. God is Spirit. Jesus as the way, truth and life, is always pointing us Godward, to that Original Supreme Being, THE FATHER of lights, the Father of spirits, the Father of all.

Yes, we are to worship only JHWH so explain why the disciples of the Lord Jesus worshipped Him:

"And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy" (Lk.24:50-52).​

The Lord Jesus' disciples worshipped Him because they knew He was God, as witnessed by the following words of Thomas which were spoken to Him:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

 

[Nihilo]

you are pin head.

I sense tricky question.

Good day to you.

 

[meshak]

I sense tricky question.

Good day to you.

Hello Nihilo

 

[freelight]

More about 'God our Savior'........

More about 'God our Savior'........

No, you explained your opinion on what it says. Under what authority can you say the verse in question is what it means? I can say without question, under the authority of God, the verse means exactly what it says.

Hi drbrumley,

Such an attitude above is a bit presumptuous, since a thorough research shows that Titus 2:13 can be variously translated and interpreted, as far as its meaning within the context and within all of Paul's writings, where he always differentiates between the Father ('God'/Elohim) and Christ Jesus. The corresponding links show this clearly, and that there are different views among scholars favoring one or another order of the sentence structure which affects what the passage is communicating. Since this fact exists,...this verse cannot be a special or absolute proof text claiming that Jesus is the 'great God' being spoken of in the verse, as the emphasis is the appearing of the glory of God's salvation, ....Jesus the Messiah being the means of that salvation. God saves thru his logos. That Jesus is the vehicle thru whom God saves, goes without saying, since Jesus means "Jehovah saves" or "Jehovah's salvation". Again,...no problem here from a Unitarian View. Jesus the Messiah is the Savior, because He is God's means of salvation.

I've addressed Titus 2:13....here and here (also with very clear video presentation).

:thumb:

But yes, Jehovah is the Savior in Isaiah and Jesus is the Savior in Titus' letter. That is what it says. We both agree to that, but then you go on with this convoluted story below:

Explained in the above in the linked commentaries - 'God' Alone is Savior. There is One Deity. God saves thru his anointed Agent, the agency of his WORD. The Father and the Son are one. The Father and the Son in their joined enterprise, are the Savior of man. While the Father and the Son are distinct personalities, there is still ONE SAVIOR.

" looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." (ASV)

Note above, what is appearing is the GLORY of the great God....AND our Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the glory of God, and more so, since the passage is directly speaking of the Lords parousia! - the coming/presence/appearing of Jesus,....is God's glory and to His glory!

Technically? So we have two saviors then? God and then Jesus.

The grammatical issues of the sentence structure are explained in the articles provided, plus can be discovered by your further research. God is Savior, and God is ONE. God works thru His Messiah, so the salvation, the GLORY of God is wrought thru the agency of the SON. Perhaps you need to understand the concept of 'agency'. 'God' and his representative are one. The Agent of God represents God, being the one who brings to pass God's salvation, God's will, God's purpose, God's plan. 'God' ONLY is ever Savior. Only Deity can save, thru the means he's provided.

This is where your warped theology takes you. Instead of 1 savior, we have 2.

God is One. There can only be one Savior, and that savior is 'God'. God brings forth the glory of his salvation thru His Son.

I don't know how much clearer this can be explained. Even within an orthodox Trinitarian context,...the two distinct persons of the Father and the Son, are 2 distinct persons,....but BOTH are Savior. You can refer to God the Father being Savior, OR the Son of God being Savior,....but since 'God' is ONE,...His salvation and its means are one, yet it is always the Father-God that is the primary SOURCE of salvation. We can even expand this further to include many different personalities ALL being used by 'God the Father' in his dispensation and ministration of salvation,...we have the Father, Son, Spirit, angels, men (and note all these beings can be called 'elohim'!(God/gods),...since all beings invested with or acting by God's authority or rule....can be thus called) all serving as 'agents' of God. Its a collective agency - but only One God or Spirit at work thru all.

There is One Ocean; yet many rivers. The life giving power and substance of the water, is the same thru-out.

 

[freelight]

Only 'God' is 'God'........

Only 'God' is 'God'........

Yes, we are to worship only JHWH so explain why the disciples of the Lord Jesus worshipped Him:

"And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy" (Lk.24:50-52).​

Indeed, Deity alone is to be worshipped as Deity,...however other persons of great honor, dignity and respect are also 'worshipped' in their own degree of respect. Kings, prophets, dignitaries of varying royalty or authority are worshipped (attributed some kind of veneration). The 'worship' afforded in the passage above does not necessarily indicate or even prove that Jesus is 'God', but certainly...the Messiah, the Son of God - of course we honor the Son even as we honor the Father. The Messiah if truly the Messiah, deserves 'worship', in as much as he represents God. Still, only the truest essence of pure Deity (or divinity) merits the most high and holiest of worship, the kind of worship given to the FATHER.

The Lord Jesus' disciples worshipped Him because they knew He was God, as witnessed by the following words of Thomas which were spoken to Him:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

I think we've been thru this,....Trinitarians are always thinking these and other verses prove Jesus is God. Not necessarily. Thomas a Jew would never worship a man as 'God', but he was so alarmed at the miracle of Jesus appearance, that he exclaimed "my Lord and my God",....Thomas knew only YHWH the invisible One was 'God' proper,...and he might call Jesus 'Lord',..but we ought to differentiate who is being called what here, since Thomas would know that only 'God' is 'God',...and Jesus might be his 'lord', but his exclamation to 'God' would be ONLY to 'God' proper, the invisible omnipresent SPIRIT - more has already been shared here, but just for another example,...if I were to exclaim to a friend who appeared to me in a vary alarming fashion (whatever the scenario)....and said "OH my god!",...would that mean that person was 'God'? Would it prove that person was 'God'?

Lets not forget the Jewish undersanding and concept of YHWH,....a 'God' altogether incorporeal and all-transcending! This 'God' being all holy, wholly 'other'! no Jew worth their theological salt would call a man 'God', and in Jesus case, unless they were heretics or madmen, would they call Jesus 'God' - this does not in any way diminish Jesus as God's Messiah or Son, his special and unique begotten one,...for as much as 'God' is in Jesus, using Jesus and acts THRU Him,....to that degree Jesus is 'elohim',...sure. The great judges and leaders of old, men of great repute and calling...were also called 'god'. Angels too. It is according to wisdom and spiritual discernment for us to know the difference, and how to appropriate identities, names and titles. And all thru this,....only 'God' is 'God'

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Indeed, Deity alone is to be worshipped as Deity,...

Of course you must quicky change what you said earlier:

We are to worship most truly only the Infinite Father, who is incorporeal, truly infinite, the absolute reality, source and origin of all that exists, all that is. God is Spirit. Jesus as the way, truth and life, is always pointing us Godward, to that Original Supreme Being, THE FATHER of lights, the Father of spirits, the Father of all.

 

[steko]

you are pin head.

I'll bet that looks funny!

 

[patrick jane]

Nihilo called me pinhead and I thought that was a cute name. So I used it on him

It is a cute name pinhead !!!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

" looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." (ASV)

Yes, the following verse is speaking of that appearing of the great God, Jesus Christ:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

The following verses are also speaking of the same "appearance" and the same "glory":

"Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).​

So the "glory" in the following verse is referring to the glorious body in which we will see the Lord Jesus when He will appear:

"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​