Jesus is God !

[Lonster]

None of this to be mean btw. My desire is to be clear, truthful, and to the point, not to sacrifice grace and gentleness seasoned with salt. On these two, it is extremely important to parse truth from error and to clearly delineate. For many of us, there is a genuine need to be very clear about conveyances of truth and error and with supposed 'extended hands of fellowship' I've been compelled to be blatant, blunt (because of the need) and in as much clarity as possible.

There are many denials of Scripture and Christianity in the Urantia Book (from wikipedia):

• Jesus' crucifixion is not considered an atonement for the sins of humanity.[68] The crucifixion is taught to be an outcome of the fears of religious leaders of the day, who regarded his teachings as a threat to their positions of authority.
• Jesus is considered the human incarnation of "Michael of Nebadon," one of more than 700,000 "Paradise Sons" of God, or "Creator Sons." Jesus is not considered the second person of the Trinity as he is in Christianity. The book refers to the Eternal Son as the second person of the Trinity.[86]
• Jesus was born on Earth through natural means of conception instead of a virgin birth.[87]
• Jesus did not walk on water or perform some of the miracles that are attributed to him in the Bible.[88]

Additionally, the authors knew their own limitation in trying to incorporate modern science into their narrative and covered their backs by saying:
the science in The Urantia Book reflects the views that prevailed at the time the book originated.[101] The claim by the authors, that no unknown scientific discoveries could be imparted, can function as a ruse to allow mistakes to be dismissed later.[102] The appeal to convenience that post-1955 scientific knowledge is not being presented is consistent with a book written by humans in the 1950s instead of celestial beings with superior knowledge.

Sadly, the very means for 'authenticity' God used of His prophets to authenticity is denied by Dr. Heisler and any other contributors to the Urantia Book. They rather, in impotent means, give an excuse for the antiquated (inaccurate) science portrayed in the Urantia with full apology and expectation of correction that was already supposed to come as accurate and without mistake (for so the appeal) from spirit beings.

The Apostle Paul said very clearly in Galatians chapter one, that if ANY, even a spirit being, were to add OR take-away from the gospel, they were eternally cursed. That is how strongly the Apostle Paul was and would be in forum today and we MUST carry his tenor or lose our own rights to declaring a gospel. It is specific and there are NOT many roads that lead to heaven. There is only one. Listen then to his words:

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Galatians 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the One who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will pay the penalty!

Galatians 6:6 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted *(see also 2 Timothy 3, Paul needed to pull no punches and yet his words are seasoned with Grace).

The Urantia is clearly and unmistakably an attempt to sanitize the Bible from any of the 'barbaric neanderthal' tendencies of God and man given in the scriptures, up to and ESPECIALLY including the atoning work of our Lord Jesus Christ, sanitizing them from the poor constitutions of their weak (refined and civil) sensibilities of what is found detestable to modern, enlightened, civilized man. Any reading of the UB confirms this is both the sentiment and attempt in which these thoughts were formed and written down. In so doing, it removes Redemption from Christ and rather gives an 'idea' for men, in their fallen state without Christ, to seek their inner 'spirituality' instead of following the only Gospel. We must be vigilant in knowing who is accursed for another gospel which Paul says clearly "Is no gospel at all." I cannot say it any more clearly nor any more graciously than this.

 

[Idolater]

Road apples. Stop making us look bad.

How can you possibly disagree with what you snipped from my post? Substitute "Caino" for literally any other name---how can you disagree with that?

 

[Lonster]

How can you possibly disagree with what you snipped from my post? Substitute "Caino" for literally any other name---how can you disagree with that?

Because, dear, Idol-ater, literally anyone 'can' believe Jesus Christ is risen AND completely reject Him! Your 'litmus' is shortsighted and superficial. Simply believing that does NOT a Christian make and she's calling you on it as well as the embarrassment.

 

[Idolater]

No, and you are remiss for stating it. I gave you the thread and the many many problems and outright attacks on Christ (My Savior, at least if not yours that you care to defend).

Spare me.

CLEARLY you are mal-informed regarding Urantia claims to EVER consider one a Christian.

You can be saved by believing in Jesus. But Jesus wants you to receive Him in the Eucharist too. It's not one or the other, it's both.

No, not at all, Idol-ater (should I have known with "Idol" in your name?). The Urantia book flat out, rejects and denies worship of the Son.

That does sound inconsistent with belief in Christ. But I haven't witnessed Caino doing that. And we're not conversing with the Urantia book author here. If we were, then that would be different. Did Caino write that book?

IF you had bothered to read the link, you'd have seen these "Christians" (in your warped mind) blasphemying Spirit and Son.

I am not dealing with a group i t t, just with the user Caino. And your nastiness here, is intriguing. You don't have the reputation for being so impolite but here you are personally trying to insult me for a third time in this one post, and you're not done yet.

YOU'D HAVE SEEN IT, Idol-ater! Nope, you want to extend that friendly (Idolatrous?) hand. : Plain:

Extend a friendly hand, and invite to Mass. There's just one right way to conceive of Jesus, and it's the Catholic way, I haven't made any bones about that, not once.

And Caino has born witness that He is risen from the dead.

AND this isn't one of them Idolater! Wake up!

I don't really care to banter over it with you. It isn't this thread.

You'd get shellacked anyway. I get it.

Your belief on this isn't germane to this thread.

That wasn't my belief, that's what the authentic bishops all teach, both Catholic and Orthodox: they all to a man teach that Jesus is God. Which is literally the TITLE of this thread.

AND none of His saving work! He flat out denies a 'need' for a Savior.

Those exact words aren't found in either John 3:16 or Romans 10:9.

You're invoking 'soteriology' here, you're saying that if someone's soteriology is wrong, then they're not really Christians.

This just shows your complete ignorance of Urantia doctrine.

You're acting as if I should be ashamed to not be familiar with this 'doctrine'.

You'd be WISE to close your mouth and come back here AFTER you've read a bit of it.

"LAIN"

They DO attack Christ, Christians, and His salvation unabashedly.

I don't judge users based on what other users say against them. I wait and see. Sometimes, the accusers are right, and sometimes they're not. Either way I don't see any reason to veer from my policy in dealing with anonymous internet discussion board users.

Caino claims to believe in His Resurrection, to believe that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God, but it's true that I've only witnessed Caino agreeing that the Resurrection is historical fact, and I have not witnessed Caino calling Him 'Lord'.

It is new Age "We don't need a Savior" we are gods already, doctrine.

I believe you. It seems you've spent a lot of time studying the contents of Urantia book.

GO READ it!

No.

You are looking blind, ignorant, and foolish for knowing absolutely nothing about their denials and blasphemies, yet calling them 'Christian.'

No I'm not.

Yet YOU seem to disregard them when calling men Christians, who, CLEARLY by Catholic parameters (and Reformed/Evangelical), are not.

Sorry, fact

You know how many wrong ways there are to conceive of Christ? Plenty, tons, boatloads of wrong ways to think of Him.

You think of Him wrongly in one way, Caino in another, NWL in another, RD in another. All different ways, all different variations.

If Catholicism means to believe that the only authentic Christians who are not Catholic, are those who believe in Christ precisely as Catholicism does, then that would basically limit those who might be saved to Catholics, and to people who are Catholic in all ways but bodily, i o w up-and-coming future converts. And everybody else is damned and lost, and that would include you.

That's not Catholic. That's demonic. Which is really more of a Noncatholic thing.

and I'm POSITIVE you are talking out of ignorance else you'd know what they believe and how they malign Christ.

I am sure that you are right, but again I'm not dealing with a group, but a single user on TOL, and I'm dealing with this user based on what I see with my own eyes, and not based on what other users who clearly have an ax to grind accuse them of.

DEMONS believe Jesus is risen, Idolater.

You continue to repeat this. Even though the verse literally says that they believe in One God. And that's it. It's irrelevant to literally everything, as there are no polytheists participating i t t.

I agree with TG:

Shrug.

Your weak litmus 1) is NOT Catholic

You literally know nothing about my faith. And, you do not believe my faith either.

and 2) NOT Christian

False.

(perhaps you fail to be one on that point, you've sadly got me wondering).

I hope you're all torn up about it.

Whatever it'll take, for you to go to Mass.

Convert.

 

[Right Divider]

@Idolater

Do you really have so little discernment that you believe that Caino is a "believer"?

 

[Idolater]

@Idolater

Do you really have so little discernment that you believe that Caino is a "believer"?

Caino said the Resurrection of Christ is nonfiction.

I have not seen where Caino calls Him 'Lord' though.

Do YOU really have so little discernment that you believe that Jesus Christ did not ensure that His memory would never pass from the earth until He comes again? Mass is a memorial service after all.

 

[Idolater]

Because, dear, Idol-ater, literally anyone 'can' believe Jesus Christ is risen AND completely reject Him! Your 'litmus' is shortsighted and superficial. Simply believing that does NOT a Christian make and she's calling you on it as well as the embarrassment.

It's not my "litmus", this is from the Catechism of the Church. And I'm not limiting this to just believing in the Resurrection, although that is absolutely necessary. You must "believe in" Christ, call Him 'Lord', know that He is the only begotten Son of God, that He is God Himself, the Second Person of the undivided Trinity. You don't need to know the details. But in broad strokes. He is God, and 2000 years ago He was made flesh and dwelt among the Apostles.

 

[Right Divider]

Caino said the Resurrection of Christ is nonfiction.

I have not seen where Caino calls Him 'Lord' though.

Caino has another Jesus.

Do YOU really have so little discernment that you believe that Jesus Christ did not ensure that His memory would never pass from the earth until He comes again? Mass is a memorial service after all.

The "Mass" is an abomination!

 

[Lonster]

Spare me.

No. You haven't earned that.

You can be saved by believing in Jesus. But Jesus wants you to receive Him in the Eucharist too. It's not one or the other, it's both.

Much more than that. As far as the sacraments we disagree but I actually know the stance the RC has taken on Protestants and our disagreements. Don't overstate.

That does sound inconsistent with belief in Christ. But I haven't witnessed Caino doing that. And we're not conversing with the Urantia book author here. If we were, then that would be different. Did Caino write that book?

He has over 500 pages of him agreeing with it AND lambasting Christian beliefs.

I am not dealing with a group i t t, just with the user Caino. And your nastiness here, is intriguing. You don't have the reputation for being so impolite but here you are personally trying to insult me for a third time in this one post, and you're not done yet.

It is His and Freelight's thread.

Extend a friendly hand, and invite to Mass. There's just one right way to conceive of Jesus, and it's the Catholic way, I haven't made any bones about that, not once.

And Caino has born witness that He is risen from the dead.

It isn't enough. You really SHOULD read some of that thread. It is frontal attack on tenants of Salvation in Jesus Christ.

You'd get shellacked anyway. I get it.

Maybe from Trump Girl, but from you? :nono:

That wasn't my belief, that's what the authentic bishops all teach, both Catholic and Orthodox: they all to a man teach that Jesus is God. Which is literally the TITLE of this thread.

Those exact words aren't found in either John 3:16 or Romans 10:9.

You're invoking 'soteriology' here, you're saying that if someone's soteriology is wrong, then they're not really Christians.

Er, no. Again this is a lack of discernment on your part. The demons believe in God too. James said it. Any bishop ignoring James? Not good, not Catholic.

You're acting as if I should be ashamed to not be familiar with this 'doctrine'.

No, rather that, in ignorance, you extend your hand in fellowship to one who not only denies, but attacks (read the thread) my as well as your faith.

"LAIN"

I don't judge users based on what other users say against them. I wait and see. Sometimes, the accusers are right, and sometimes they're not. Either way I don't see any reason to veer from my policy in dealing with anonymous internet discussion board users.

Caino claims to believe in His Resurrection, to believe that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God, but it's true that I've only witnessed Caino agreeing that the Resurrection is historical fact, and I have not witnessed Caino calling Him 'Lord'.

I believe you. It seems you've spent a lot of time studying the contents of Urantia book.

ONLY because of the challenge to do so. I was, at the time, trying to show them how foolish it was. They don't care and really don't care to be corrected. They rather are false teacher-wanna-bes.

No.

No I'm not.

Er, purposeful ignorance THEN ignorance? Yes, yes you are! Sorry, fact.

You know how many wrong ways there are to conceive of Christ? Plenty, tons, boatloads of wrong ways to think of Him.

You think of Him wrongly in one way, Caino in another, NWL in another, RD in another. All different ways, all different variations.

If Catholicism means to believe that the only authentic Christians who are not Catholic, are those who believe in Christ precisely as Catholicism does, then that would basically limit those who might be saved to Catholics, and to people who are Catholic in all ways but bodily, i o w up-and-coming future converts. And everybody else is damned and lost, and that would include you.

Er, nope. I was baptized Catholic. A good many on TOL were, including the former owner Knight. It isn't how 'many' are wrong but 1) How badly wrong 2) Whether the doctrine is salvific and 3) how purposeful and opposed to it. Inviting one to Mass is one thing. Calling them 'Christian' is quite another. There is very little 'like Christ' in the Urantia thread, but being PURPOSEFULLY ignorant, you wouldn't know about that.

That's not Catholic. That's demonic. Which is really more of a Noncatholic thing.

Not the point. We are talking about being 'welcoming' which is fine, and then we are talking about the term 'Christ-like.' Imho, you are naive about what that term means.

I am sure that you are right, but again I'm not dealing with a group, but a single user on TOL, and I'm dealing with this user based on what I see with my own eyes, and not based on what other users who clearly have an ax to grind accuse them of.

Ax? Double-edged sword and one man sharpening another. The issue here is, I don't want you calling me and one who denies the Savior's dying work on the cross 'Christian' in the same breath. In addition, it was/is an opportunity for correction on your VERY promiscuous indiscriminate litmus. There is also scriptures that call God's people to come out from among and be holy.

You continue to repeat this. Even though the verse literally says that they believe in One God. And that's it. It's irrelevant to literally everything, as there are no polytheists participating i t t.

Not the point. Answer: Do demons, in fact, know Jesus Christ was raised from the dead? Do they know He is Lord? (Yes and yes, thus your litmus fails).

Shrug.

You literally know nothing about my faith. And, you do not believe my faith either.

WAAAAY overstated. Of course I know Catholic doctrine AND the line you are supposed to toe there. We can talk about other things after this, but Caino believes Jesus is 'god' in the same way he is also 'god.'

False.

Incorrect. True. I've lost my link, but there are many Catholics that give a very clear warning about calling just anyone a Christian. You don't even seem to be informed of those warnings given by Catholics. You can do as you like of course, but I'm insisting that Caino doesn't fit the parameters. Why? To relegate him to disdain? No. I cannot, in good conscience, give him any hope of salvation apart from the saving work of Jesus Christ (which he disdains and finds barbaric). Who should come in and say "you don't need to change a thing, you are just fine with me and Christ." You may not mean to do that, but it is what you've done. You've asked me 'why' I spent hours on a Urantia thread? Because I care and DON'T want to see them in trouble on the Judgement Day. Therefore, it has been necessary to correct you over this as well. Freelight and Caino desperately need the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2, the very thing he rejects.

I hope you're all torn up about it.

Whatever it'll take, for you to go to Mass.

Convert.

2 Corinthians 5:17 "If any man is in Christ, He is a new creation, the old has passed away." If he/she is in Christ, they are converted, by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. No Catholic, who is newly recreated in his/her nature to be a new creation, can or will disagree with me on this. AT LEAST I can appeal to scripture with you, not so with Caino who sees a good percentage of scripture as 'not from God' including the Apostle Paul.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace, you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, so that no man can boast. Because we are God's handiwork, recreated in Christ to do every good thing which God has prepared already, for us to do.

 

[Lonster]

It's not my "litmus", this is from the Catechism of the Church. And I'm not limiting this to just believing in the Resurrection, although that is absolutely necessary. You must "believe in" Christ, call Him 'Lord', know that He is the only begotten Son of God, that He is God Himself, the Second Person of the undivided Trinity. You don't need to know the details. But in broad strokes. He is God, and 2000 years ago He was made flesh and dwelt among the Apostles.

While there are stark disagreements between Catholics and Protestants, we agree on roughly 90% of doctrines. Not so others outside of our specific debates and disagreements. You DID limit it to just that calling Caino 'Christian.' That was and is the point and problem. He desperately needs the Savior but rejects, as I've said, almost all of the Apostle Paul's writings as well as a good portion of the gospels. He doesn't believe in the Atoning blood of the Savior at all/denies it flat out. It is important or I'd not have made this such an issue. It is a stark and important conversation and not meant to be mean to Caino, but to draw the line as starkly as it genuinely needs to be here.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Road apples. Stop making us look bad.

How can you possibly disagree with what you snipped from my post?

You are as bad as these Trinity deniers. I keep showing you where you are wrong, and you keep repeatedly asking me where you are wrong even though I have shown you.

And you putting yourself in the place of God and judging an individuals Christian's Bona Fides is antiCatholic in the extreme. We do not do that. We may speak in generalities, about the normative boundaries of what is and is not Christian, but you do NOT pick out a specific person and pass judgement!

You think you are the expert on Catholicism, and maybe you have read a lot and know a lot just as I have and do, but your litmus was wrong and poorly worded. Let us remember that YOU started out as a rude antagonist in this whole thing, when all I did was suggest that you fine tune your understanding of who is a Christian::

Catholicism believes that all who believe in Christ, that He is risen from the dead and the Son of God, are Christians

I think you need to fine tune that a bit. I can think of some non-Christians who fit that description.

Pope St. John Paul II's Catechism is freely available on the internet and can be had in mass market edition print for 15 USD, and you don't know anything that isn't in that.

Whoa, no need to get snotty

Prove, it.

So right there, the idea that I need to prove the obvious is absurd. Furthermore, the fact that your imagination is so lacking that you can not think of NON-Christians who claim the same things, is shocking.

Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons "believe" in Christ, and they call him the son of God, and they believe he is resurrected. They put their own little twists on it all but they will tell you that they believe it. According to your litmus test they ae Christians. Well guess what, they are not.

All these non-Trinitarians would say the same, but being non-Trinitarians means they worship a false God and a false Jesus, so they are not Christians.

 

[Trump Gurl]

While there are stark disagreements between Catholics and Protestants, we agree on roughly 90% of doctrines . . . .

Just to fine tune that a bit - - We totally agree on the nature of Jesus being fully God and fully man, and we agree that God is Trinity (which was hammered out by the great Catholic councils early in the first millennia but I won't gloat here. LOL.

We also agree on fundamentals such as the inerrancy of the Bible, the literal nature of the NT biblical accounts regarding Christ's miracles, the virgin birth of Christ, the bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ, the 27 books of the New Testament, and a lot more I am sure.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Trump Girl,

.... "believe" in Christ, and they call him the son of God, and they believe he is resurrected. They put their own little twists on it all but they will tell you that they believe it. According to your litmus test they are Christians. Well guess what, they are not.
All these non-Trinitarians would say the same, but being non-Trinitarians means they worship a false God and a false Jesus, so they are not Christians.

I suggest that those that believe that there is one God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God are truly Christians, but we may need to wait for Jesus to reveal this fully when he returns to judge who are the faithful. In the meantime it appears that we are subject to your pronouncement and judgement.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Trump Gurl]

Greetings Trump Girl

Greetings TrevorL

I suggest that those that believe that there is one God, Yahweh

So far so good. One God, YHWH

there is one God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God are truly Christians

As long as they believe that God the Son is also God, yes.

One God, YHWH, One Being

One being yet three persons:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

but we may need to wait for Jesus to reveal this fully when he returns to judge who are the faithful

Not neccessary. He has already revealed that he is fully God and fully man, to witnesses, through the written word, and through his Holy Church.

In the meantime it appears that we are subject to your pronouncement and judgement.

No need to be rude. I pronounce nothing. I judge nothing. He has already revealed that he is fully God and fully man through his Holy Church. The apostles and their successors say he is so. I am just a disciple.

Kind regards
Trevor

No so kind I think.

 

[Lonster]

Just to fine tune that a bit - - We totally agree on the nature of Jesus being fully God and fully man, and we agree that God is Trinity (which was hammered out by the great Catholic councils early in the first millennia but I won't gloat here. LOL.

We also agree on fundamentals such as the inerrancy of the Bible, the literal nature of the NT biblical accounts regarding Christ's miracles, the virgin birth of Christ, the bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ, the 27 books of the New Testament, and a lot more I am sure.

 

[Lonster]

Greetings Trump Girl,

I suggest that those that believe that there is one God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God are truly Christians

Well, it is a suggestion anyway. As with other shallow veneers, this one is also problematic. The actual mark of 'in Christ's image' is that He remakes a person into a new creation. ONLY God makes 'Christians.' Jesus told Nicodemus He "MUST be born again." That which is Spirit (ONLY) is Spirit. If you go tell an unregenerate person they are "Christian" it is really you playing God at that point, and incredibly presumptuous, arrogant, and dangerous. We don't 'get' to tell Christ or other believers "this guy/gal is a Christian." That right is reserved for Christ alone. Fruit may indeed portray one as a regenerate believer. The Apostle Paul gives clear guidelines for fellowship and there are several warnings in scripture not to partake in another's sins.

, but we may need to wait for Jesus to reveal this fully when he returns to judge who are the faithful.

Such is works based. Whoever is in Christ, already has a new nature. People mature differently but Christ knows His own, and there is a particular set He gives that we may know if we are in the faith. Scripture calls us to check our faith, according to biblical givens, to see if we are in the faith.

In the meantime it appears that we are subject to your pronouncement and judgement.

No, she is simply saying 'you' don't get to judge for Christ, who is His and who is not, while avoiding it herself. I believe you've made an error in 'your' judgement here.

Kind regards
Trevor

I 'think' your regards need to be 'kind' in order to describe them that way. I'm not seeing them as 'unkind' but it does seem there is a bit of a need here to redress your comments to make them actually kind. Mine aren't kind or unkind, just what I believe is truthful and properly informative. Perhaps the service of them, rendered 'for' another as yourself could fall under a kindness -Lon

 

[Right Divider]

Just to fine tune that a bit - - We totally agree on the nature of Jesus being fully God and fully man, and we agree that God is Trinity (which was hammered out by the great Catholic councils early in the first millennia but I won't gloat here. LOL.

There was no need for the RCC to tell us this. It's all in the Bible (and NO, the RCC did not "give us the Bible").

The RCC claimed a false authority and fools tons of people.

 

[Trump Gurl]

There was no need for the RCC to tell us this. It's all in the Bible

The Church came before the Bible. The Church GAVE you the Bible. The Church under Pope Damasus I in the late 4th century ratified the 27 books of the New Testament. You would know that if you studied Christian history. The Church decided on the divinity of Christ before it even put together the New Testament!

Your entire outlook on how the faith is handed down and where teaching authority lies is all bitched up. But that discussion is for another thread not this one.

Councils of Nicaea

Nicaea, COUNCILS OF, respectively the First and Seventh Ecumenical Councils, held at Nicaea in Bithynia (see above). I. THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA (First Ecume...

www.catholic.com

THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA, held in 325 AD, on the occasion of the heresy of Arius (see Arianism).

 

[keypurr]

Look who is talking. You continually make false statements AND you have created a false Christ.

How would you know with only your church knowledge?

 

[keypurr]

According to you, so is the rest of your family, but you simply think you are 'smarter' than the rest of us. Sorry, not true. Ignorance isn't 'the light' Keypurr. It amounts to you saying "While I'm not as intelligent as the rest of you, I disdain you for not coming down to my way of thinking." It is just this arrogant.

You either have truth or you don't, most here don't. My thoughts are not held hostages any church like yours are. Many things I am stupid in, but not theology. I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ. You still need to learn that and distance yourself from churches that do not teach the importance of God's Ten Commandments. Is not Christ coming back for those who keep them? Who's Sabbath do you keep Lon?