jesus is dead

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moondance

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assuranceagent said:
It's trued that Josephus doesn't claim to have witnessed the risen Christ, but he DOES speak of the multitudes of people who did make such a claim. I suggest you read up a bit more on your Josephus.

I find it interesting that you conveniently ignored all the other arguments that I made in favor of the resurrection though. What say you about the idea that Christianity would and should have died with Christ, if indeed he is dead?

I haven't heard one well-reasoned argument from your side yet, but you seem to flippantly dismiss mine. Kinda hard to debate a topic when your oppositions only argument is: that's ridiculous. :confused:
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OK i will address your other arguments give me 5 mins
 
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moondance

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insurance agent said:
It's a fair question. I believe that Christ has risen not only because the Bible says it is so, but also because there is indications from non-Christian historians (Josephus for one) that there were indeed some VERY strange occurrences that coincided with the crucifixion. Josephus and the Bible both report hundreds of witnesses who claimed to have seen the risen Christ. Even today it only takes 2-3 witnesses to convict someone of a crime in a court of law. Their weight of numbers is considered to eliminate reasonable doubt..

Further, the current existence of Christianity some 2000 years after that event also testifies to the truth of the resurrection. Jesus had told his disciples that he would rise on the third day and others had heard the claim. Had that claim gone unfulfilled the religion and it's contention that he was indeed God in flesh would have died with him. Case in point the many 'messiahs' who have come since and led cults that died with them. This continuation of the belief in Jesus' divinity within his disciples and indeed the explosive growth of the first century church kinda blow out the old "his followers stole the body" explanation for the empty tomb. MANY of Jesus' original followers were martyred horribly for their belief. No one is that committed to a self-perpetuated deception.

As to the Bible - historical and textual criticisms have served to support the claims of the Bible time and time again. Archaeological evidence has repeatedly supported the historicity of the Bible as well. And even non-Christian historians (contemporary and ancient) acknowledge that every prophecy of the Bible up to the current age has been fulfilled. (While it is more difficult to verify the messianic prophecies, the historical ones are plain). As to why I'd believe that it is the inspired, inerrant, Word of God, well....that comes on faith.
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A lot of what you are saying is coming straight from the bible which you admit comes on faith which is belief with no evidence so i will ignore everything that you have presented just because it is in the bible.

What you have left is an argument that because christianity still exists that is this some sort of evidence that Jesus is alive. Buddhism is just as old and still believed in this is no evidence that either religion is true. Because some people have been "martyred" for their faith again is no evidence that what they believe is true that is what suicide bombers do on a daily basis but i am sure you don't believe what they believe.

Prophecies being fulfilled you have not given any and most of them are so vague that they could be applied to anything Like Nostradamus prophecies, also the new testament writers took them and made them fit into their own belief systems and still made mistakes with them.

At least you had the honesty to say it is by faith, that is the bottom line and what interests me is that if presented with reality will believers admit they where mistaken or live a lie.
 
assuranceagent

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moondance said:
A lot of what you are saying is coming straight from the bible which you admit comes on faith which is belief with no evidence so i will ignore everything that you have presented just because it is in the bible.

What you have left is an argument that because christianity still exists that is this some sort of evidence that Jesus is alive. Buddhism is just as old and still believed in this is no evidence that either religion is true. Because some people have been "martyred" for their faith again is no evidence that what they believe is true that is what suicide bombers do on a daily basis but i am sure you don't believe what they believe.

Prophecies being fulfilled you have not given any and most of them are so vague that they could be applied to anything Like Nostradamus prophecies, also the new testament writers took them and made them fit into their own belief systems and still made mistakes with them.

At least you had the honesty to say it is by faith, that is the bottom line and what interests me is that if presented with reality will believers admit they where mistaken or live a lie.
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I still don't think you read my post very carefully because I specifically downplayed the parts that came out of the Bible, only mentioning that I believe it for that reason among others. I'll also correct your conception of faith - it is NOT a belief without evidence. Faith is belief that effects a change in the believer. Here's an example: I have faith that the medication my doctor gives me when I'm ill is the correct one to take, and thus I take it, believing it will make be better.

I'm betting you and I share faith on this one. See neither of us studied medicine (or rather I didn't and I'll assume you are in another field as well) and thus we don't know that the medication we are given will work for us in the way we are told. But we see evidence of others getting better after having taken the meds and we ourselves have had experiential evidence that supports that belief and so we have faith that it works. Hardly blind or without evidence I think you'd agree. Matter of fact, if we're both honest with ourselves, our sphere of expertise is so relatively narrow that MUCH of what we hold as true we believe on faith. Josephus was not a biblical author and you failed to adequately assuage that argument, which was my first one.

Now to address your second rebuttal: Buddhism is not a belief system whose very basis is contingent upon the resurrection of it's lead proponent so your argument there doesn't hold much weight. If Buddha where somehow shown to have been angry and narcissistic behind closed doors, he indeed would have discredited himself and his philosophy as it is based on the Zen state of harmony. The very basis of Christianity is dependent upon the risen Christ. If that basis goes unsatisfied, the religion is dead in the water. Your example is inadequate.

Now, no one contests whether or not the tomb of Jesus was empty on the third day - the question is: what happened to the body? The contention of the Jewish leaders of the day and the Romans and all the way down to atheists like yourself throughout history has been that his followers stole the body away to make it appear that resurrection had occurred. If this were the case then those followers knew that Jesus had died and his claims had gone unsubstantiated. They didn't have to have faith...they could see one way or the other because they were there. My contention is that no one will willingly sacrifice himself for what he knows is a lie. Many of his followers were tortured and killed. No man will subject himself to that for what he knows is a lie. You're right by the way, that I don't believe that Islam has it right, but I also don't believe that they know that they are wrong, or suicide bombing would be a thing of stories. On another note, martyrdom is not something you do to yourself. Suicide bombers are murderers, not martyrs.

On to prophecy: The prophecies in the Bible are, for the most part, very direct and clear, in direct contrast to Nostradamus. It's true that some in Revelation have been hard to understand, but the OT prophecies really aren't that tough. You asked for examples: Multiple times the destruction of Israel was prophesied and fulfilled right down to the identity of the invaders, from the Romans to the Babylonian empire to the Persians and Assyrians, etc. These prophecies were plain as day and each and every one of them was fulfilled. Again, anyone who knows about the prophetic works in the Bible, be they Christian or secular, admits that the fulfillment of OT prophecy is uncannily accurate. The prophecies that from Abraham would come a great nation were fulfilled. The prophecies about the Canaanites being a thorn in the side of Israel forever has been and is being fulfilled before our very eyes. The restoration of ethnic Israel to the physical state of Israel was prophesied. These are not vague prophecies. Again, I'd ask you to study up on these things before you make unfounded assertions.

Finally, I'd ask you clarify what mistakes the NT writers made with prophecy and I'll end by answering your question:

If sufficient weight of evidence were presented that contradicted the claims of Christianity I'd be forced to reconsider my position. Find me the bones of the deceased Jesus and my faith will disappear as it can no longer be supported. As it stands though, there is far greater weight of evidence to support Christianity's claims than to deny them.

Ask yourself: why is it that religiosity is the default position among man? Why does atheism have to be taught? (This has long been an accepted fact in anthropology. One which major Universities are studying at this very time. Check Yahoo news, you may find it interesting.)

I appreciate your attempts at refuting my arguments and that you did it without too much condescension and/or flaming, but I just don't think you've done an adequate job of turning aside any of the arguments that I've made thus far.

You asked why we believe, but when logical positions are put forward, it's not enough. I dare say that atheism is to you what you thought Christianity was to me: something you believe blindly and that is unassailable, meaning that you will not revise your position regardless of the evidence presented. If I'm wrong, tell me what would cause you to come over to my side of the fence. Same question you posed: what would it take to change your mind?
 
Rusha

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Wamba said:
How do you believe the Universe came to be?
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How do you believe the Creator came to be? And if you are willing to believe a *Creator* didn't need anyone to create him/her, then why doesn't the same principle apply to the universe?
 
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moondance

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Looks as if its over there is no evidence that Jesus is alive it is based on faith which is belief without evidence. There is also no evidence for a creator.
 
assuranceagent

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moondance said:
Looks as if its over there is no evidence that Jesus is alive it is based on faith which is belief without evidence. There is also no evidence for a creator.
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ROFL, again you conveniently overlook my arguments. Indeed it is over, Moondance, if you are punching out. Have a good one.;)

But just for grins I'll counter your last unfounded assertion: The evidence for the creator is the creation itself. If you found a watch laying on the sidewalk one day, the order and precision of that contraption would speak to the existence of it's creator. You'd naturally assume that some had to make it and you'd be right.

Of course, it'd be much easier to disengage from that process altogether and just chalk it up to random chance, eh?

Have a good night. I'll be happy to debate with you again in the future if you come up with some more questions you don't really want answers to. :wave2:
 
assuranceagent

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Delmar said:
It is a fair question, if asked in earnest. Here's hoping you didn't just toss your pearls in the mud, to be trampled underfoot!
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So what do you think Delmar? Pearls in the mud? I hope not. Maybe it'll make sense to some others who may happen upon this thread.
 
M

moondance

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insurance agent said:
I still don't think you read my post very carefully because I specifically downplayed the parts that came out of the Bible, only mentioning that I believe it for that reason among others. I'll also correct your conception of faith - it is NOT a belief without evidence. Faith is belief that effects a change in the believer. Here's an example: I have faith that the medication my doctor gives me when I'm ill is the correct one to take, and thus I take it, believing it will make be better.

I'm betting you and I share faith on this one. See neither of us studied medicine (or rather I didn't and I'll assume you are in another field as well) and thus we don't know that the medication we are given will work for us in the way we are told. But we see evidence of others getting better after having taken the meds and we ourselves have had experiential evidence that supports that belief and so we have faith that it works. Hardly blind or without evidence I think you'd agree. Matter of fact, if we're both honest with ourselves, our sphere of expertise is so relatively narrow that MUCH of what we hold as true we believe on faith. Josephus was not a biblical author and you failed to adequately assuage that argument, which was my first one.

Now to address your second rebuttal: Buddhism is not a belief system whose very basis is contingent upon the resurrection of it's lead proponent so your argument there doesn't hold much weight. If Buddha where somehow shown to have been angry and narcissistic behind closed doors, he indeed would have discredited himself and his philosophy as it is based on the Zen state of harmony. The very basis of Christianity is dependent upon the risen Christ. If that basis goes unsatisfied, the religion is dead in the water. Your example is inadequate.

Now, no one contests whether or not the tomb of Jesus was empty on the third day - the question is: what happened to the body? The contention of the Jewish leaders of the day and the Romans and all the way down to atheists like yourself throughout history has been that his followers stole the body away to make it appear that resurrection had occurred. If this were the case then those followers knew that Jesus had died and his claims had gone unsubstantiated. They didn't have to have faith...they could see one way or the other because they were there. My contention is that no one will willingly sacrifice himself for what he knows is a lie. Many of his followers were tortured and killed. No man will subject himself to that for what he knows is a lie. You're right by the way, that I don't believe that Islam has it right, but I also don't believe that they know that they are wrong, or suicide bombing would be a thing of stories. On another note, martyrdom is not something you do to yourself. Suicide bombers are murderers, not martyrs.

On to prophecy: The prophecies in the Bible are, for the most part, very direct and clear, in direct contrast to Nostradamus. It's true that some in Revelation have been hard to understand, but the OT prophecies really aren't that tough. You asked for examples: Multiple times the destruction of Israel was prophesied and fulfilled right down to the identity of the invaders, from the Romans to the Babylonian empire to the Persians and Assyrians, etc. These prophecies were plain as day and each and every one of them was fulfilled. Again, anyone who knows about the prophetic works in the Bible, be they Christian or secular, admits that the fulfillment of OT prophecy is uncannily accurate. The prophecies that from Abraham would come a great nation were fulfilled. The prophecies about the Canaanites being a thorn in the side of Israel forever has been and is being fulfilled before our very eyes. The restoration of ethnic Israel to the physical state of Israel was prophesied. These are not vague prophecies. Again, I'd ask you to study up on these things before you make unfounded assertions.

Finally, I'd ask you clarify what mistakes the NT writers made with prophecy and I'll end by answering your question:

If sufficient weight of evidence were presented that contradicted the claims of Christianity I'd be forced to reconsider my position. Find me the bones of the deceased Jesus and my faith will disappear as it can no longer be supported. As it stands though, there is far greater weight of evidence to support Christianity's claims than to deny them.

Ask yourself: why is it that religiosity is the default position among man? Why does atheism have to be taught? (This has long been an accepted fact in anthropology. One which major Universities are studying at this very time. Check Yahoo news, you may find it interesting.)

I appreciate your attempts at refuting my arguments and that you did it without too much condescension and/or flaming, but I just don't think you've done an adequate job of turning aside any of the arguments that I've made thus far.

You asked why we believe, but when logical positions are put forward, it's not enough. I dare say that atheism is to you what you thought Christianity was to me: something you believe blindly and that is unassailable, meaning that you will not revise your position regardless of the evidence presented. If I'm wrong, tell me what would cause you to come over to my side of the fence. Same question you posed: what would it take to change your mind?
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I appreciate your honesty. I have nothing to add to my previous arguments, they are sufficient rebuttals to your previous claims. Your definition of faith is different of how Paul explained in Hebrews 11 and the definition that is in the gospels and 0.T. and N.T. It is a bit ironic that i am trying to explain the biblical understanding of faith to you.

You have made absolutely no concessions so i cannot take your arguments too seriously. If you want to have a professional online debate and want to organise it then let me know, i have no problem in responding to what you have said but it has got to a stage where it will have to done properly or stop.

To finish off it would be very easy for me to change my mind all i need is evidence that Jesus is not dead but there is none. Your arguments are not new to me but it has been about 10 years since i have spoke to any religious people about their beliefs and i thought it would be good to refresh my memory with what it is like to have faith just out of pure curiosity to be honest with you.
 
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