ECT JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF FOUNDED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[SonOfCaleb]

Watchtower 10/1/1994 p. 8
All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.

I've studied with them and been to their bible class once. They are programed and very much like robots.

That statement doesn't support your initial claim and is quite different to what you initially claimed. "Jehovah Witnesses are told they cannot understand the bible without the Society to explain it to them".

The faithful and discreet slave or governing body are responsible for the religious instruction and doctrinal matters related to the Jehovahs Witnesses and the congregations. In this respect they operate exactly as the first governing body did in Jerusalem that was made up of faithul apostles like Peter and Paul. If there was no 'Organization' then there could only be disunity which has plagued Christianity for millenia hence the various Schism such as the East West Schism of 1054, or the Reformation of early 16th/17th Century. No rorganization can operate properly if multiple viewpoints/agendas existed, which rings true of religious or secular organisations.

This arrangement is no different to the Catholic Church whose leadership is provided by the Vatican who sit at the top of their Church hierachy. Likewise just as a business or corporation operates led by a board of directors, those directors would be responsible for matters related to the organization and its structure while providing leadership. That doesnt mean the board is responsible for regulating every minute aspect of their employees behavior the same way the Catholic Church cannot completely regulate the behavior of its adherents. Thus its disingenous reasoning to claim Witnesses are 'programmed like robots'. Not even the US military the worlds most powerfullest army is able to 'programme like robots' the behavior of their personnel. So i'm afraid your claim is simply untrue.

Ultimately Jesus is the head of the congregation. The faithful and discreet slave provide ALL religious instruction and guidance from the Bible as THE ONLY authority, taking into account Jesus headship. If you believe the Bible to be Gods own inspired word then you should have no problem with this arrangement which is entirely supported in Gods own word the Bible.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Here's something I found from the link:

Not only that there's no evidence at all that Peter ever visisted Rome. This viewpoint isn't supported scriptually from the Bible or secularly from ANY historical sources. Peter in fact spent alot of time in Babylon where there was a thriving Jewish community.
The viewpoint that Peter was in Rome is an invented Catholic tradition that has been used to support and justifiy their erroenous belief as Peter being the first Bishop of Rome and the lineage they attempted to establish between Peter and the so called Pope. Regardless this position is entirely unbiblical, of which the Catholic Church hierachy never existed in 1AD and was not obeserved by the early Christians.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Christ founded the Universal Church, not necessarily the Catholic Church. There is no longer Jew nor Gentile.

This is another Catholic Church/Christianity myth/tradition. Jesus never founded any Church. The word Church was never used in any of the early manuscripts or translations of the Bible. In fact the ancient Jews wouldnt even have known what a Church was, as their religious instruction was done via Congregations of the people as per the Mosaic Law. Thus the correct etymology is actually the Greek work ecclesia which means to congregrate convene or assemble.

Likewise Jesus never founded any congregation directly himself. The establishment of the first Christian congregations actually started with the Apostles.

 

[Choleric]

Here's something I found from the link:

:thumb: there is nothing to indicate it from scripture for sure.

 

[chrysostom]

Peter in fact spent alot of time in Babylon where there was a thriving Jewish community.

where is your evidence that peter was in babylon?

 

[Ktoyou]

You didn't put your "few pages" limitation on until after I posted that. Don't get mad at me for not knowing your unwritten link posting guidelines. :rotfl:



So someone says, "why do you believe the rcc was started by Jesus Himself?"

Your reply is "I'll give you a link." :AMR:

Surely you are a better conversationalist than that, even you.

It's not that you post links, it's that you ONLY post links in a vast percentage of your posts.

Maybe you know this and maybe you don't? The only reason he posts here us to show, mainly to himself, how smart he is. He thinks to himself, " See how intelligent I am, you stupid people"

Never does he show any interest in people, only himself, and yes, he is a classic narcissist.

If he was really so smart he would be teaching theology at a university.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

where is your evidence that peter was in babylon?

Peter says it himself in the first letter he wrote. (1Pe 5:13) "She who is in Babylon, a chosen one like you, sends you her greetings, and so does Mark, my son"

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Not only that there's no evidence at all that Peter ever visisted Rome. This viewpoint isn't supported scriptually from the Bible or secularly from ANY historical sources.

True.

Peter in fact spent alot of time in Babylon where there was a thriving Jewish community.

False.

Babylon is spiritually discerned as Jerusalem which was destroyed in 70 AD.

Peter actually spent alotta time with his mother, the Jerusalem from above.

The viewpoint that Peter was in Rome is an invented Catholic tradition that has been used to support and justifiy their erroenous belief as Peter being the first Bishop of Rome and the lineage they attempted to establish between Peter and the so called Pope. Regardless this position is entirely unbiblical, of which the Catholic Church hierachy never existed in 1AD and was not obeserved by the early Christians.

Agreed.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

False.

Babylon is spiritually discerned as Jerusalem which was destroyed in 70 AD.

Peter actually spent alotta time with his mother, the Jerusalem from above.

Its not false. As i said to the other poster Peter himself in his own letter says he was in Babylon when he wrote his inspired book.(1Pe 5:13) "She who is in Babylon, a chosen one like you, sends you her greetings, and so does Mark, my son"

Note the Douay Version translation says "“The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth my son, Mark.”

You may recall that there was a sizable Jewish population in Babylon who were descendants of the original 12 tribes from when the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem in 607BCE. There are many sources extant to the Bible such as Josephus a contemporary of Peters day as well as Rabbinic sources that attest to the well established historical links between Babylon and Israel.

 

[Choleric]

Maybe you know this and maybe you don't? The only reason he posts here us to show, mainly to himself, how smart he is. He thinks to himself, " See how intelligent I am, you stupid people"

Never does he show any interest in people, only himself, and yes, he is a classic narcissist.

If he was really so smart he would be teaching theology at a university.

Thay about sums it up. Thanks Ktoyou

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Its not false. As i said to the other poster Peter himself in his own letter says he was in Babylon when he wrote his inspired book.(1Pe 5:13) "She who is in Babylon, a chosen one like you, sends you her greetings, and so does Mark, my son"

Note the Douay Version translation says "“The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth my son, Mark.”



You may recall that there was a sizable Jewish population in Babylon who were descendants of the original 12 tribes from when the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem in 607BCE. There are many sources extant to the Bible such as Josephus a contemporary of Peters day as well as Rabbinic sources that attest to the well established historical links between Babylon and Israel.

http://www.restorationministry.com/books/atjones/babylon-newjerusalem.htm

And....

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/babylonthegreatisraelreprint.html

 

[turbosixx]

That statement doesn't support your initial claim and is quite different to what you initially claimed. "Jehovah Witnesses are told they cannot understand the bible without the Society to explain it to them".

Sure it does. Unless you have another definition for “only”, Can become known only through “the society” means you can’t understand it without them.

The faithful and discreet slave or governing body are responsible for the religious instruction and doctrinal matters related to the Jehovahs Witnesses and the congregations.

Do you have any scriptural support for this claim?

As far as I can determine from scripture, that is the responsibility of the elders. We can see elders appointed in the various churches.
Titus 1:5 I left you in Crete so that you would correct the things that were defective, and make appointments of elders in city after city, as I instructed you:
Acts 14:23 Moreover, they appointed elders for them in each congregation, offering prayer with fasting, and they entrusted them to Jehovah, in whom they had become believers.
After the appointment of elders they were then “entrusted” to Jehovah.

The elders are the overseers of each autonomous congregation.
Acts 20:17 However, from Mi·leʹtus he sent word to Ephʹe·sus and called for the elders of the congregation……28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.
1 Pt. 5:1 Therefore, as a fellow elder, a witness of the sufferings of the Christ and a sharer of the glory that is to be revealed, I make this appeal to the elders among you: 2 Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers,

The elders have qualifications that are spelled out in scripture. 1 Tim. 2:1-7, Titus 1:5-9. Can you show me the qualifications for the “faithful and discreet slave”?

Do you believe the society to be apostles?


The claim that the “faithful and discreet slave” is the society is just as weak as “this rock” makes Peter a pope. There is ZERO supporting scripture for either.

 

[turbosixx]

If there was no 'Organization' then there could only be disunity which has plagued Christianity for millenia hence the various Schism such as the East West Schism of 1054, or the Reformation of early 16th/17th Century. No rorganization can operate properly if multiple viewpoints/agendas existed, which rings true of religious or secular organisations.

I agree with your point but what did Jesus say would provide the unity?
Jn. 17:20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.
We have their word written down and it’s up to each of us to determine truth, no one else will be responsible for our eternal destiny on judgment day. Just as the Bereans checked to make sure what they were told was true we should do the same. It’s clear that there will be false teachings.
2 Tim. 4:3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.
Acts 20:29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
How do we determine what’s true and what’s false?

This arrangement is no different to the Catholic Church whose leadership is provided by the Vatican who sit at the top of their Church hierachy. Likewise just as a business or corporation operates led by a board of directors, those directors would be responsible for matters related to the organization and its structure while providing leadership. That doesnt mean the board is responsible for regulating every minute aspect of their employees behavior the same way the Catholic Church cannot completely regulate the behavior of its adherents. Thus its disingenous reasoning to claim Witnesses are 'programmed like robots'. Not even the US military the worlds most powerfullest army is able to 'programme like robots' the behavior of their personnel. So i'm afraid your claim is simply untrue.

I’ve been to mass and I’ve been to the kingdom hall. The Catholics aren’t programed to understand truth because they aren’t taught anything but church routines and they perform them on queue and go home. Now the JW’s are taught exactly what to think and are not to think for themselves. They tell you they can but I have yet to see it. They read from their study book word for word and then read the appointed supporting scripture with zero discussion, zero deviation. I’m told that the same book, same lesson is taught all over the world for that day. When they study in your home they will not come alone, I assume for fear of being possibly “lead astray”.

Ultimately Jesus is the head of the congregation.

Jesus is the only head. A body only has one head.
Col. 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church;
1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

The faithful and discreet slave provide ALL religious instruction and guidance from the Bible as THE ONLY authority.

Do they provide instructions the apostles didn’t give? Yes, scripture is the only authority.
1 Thess. 4:1 Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. 2 For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

 

[jamie]

Jesus never founded any Church. The word Church was never used in any of the early manuscripts or translations of the Bible. In fact the ancient Jews wouldnt even have known what a Church was, as their religious instruction was done via Congregations of the people as per the Mosaic Law. Thus the correct etymology is actually the Greek work ecclesia which means to congregrate convene or assemble.

Jesus Christ brought his ecclesia out of Egypt and gave them the holy Spirit. (Acts 7:38)

 

[Cruciform]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Roman Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm

Don't bother. :yawn:

 

[Cruciform]

The only reason he posts here us to show, mainly to himself, how smart he is. He thinks to himself, " See how intelligent I am, you stupid people" Never does he show any interest in people, only himself, and yes, he is a classic narcissist.

Merely a fabricated, and wholly imaginary, collection of ad hominem barbs and, as such, entirely irrelevant. Come back if you ever manage to come up with an actual argument.

If he was really so smart he would be teaching theology at a university.

So if I quote a multitude of university theologians who affirm the Catholic faith---and who are therefore, according to you, "smart"---you'll accept their conclusions, correct?

That's what I thought.

 

[Choleric]

Don't bother. :yawn:

Catholic doctrinal heresies

 

[chrysostom]

Catholic doctrinal heresies

who decides what is a heresy?
-the church

 

[Choleric]

who decides what is a heresy?
-the church

The bible does. No private interpretation. If it doesn't line up with scripture, it is heresy. It is His Word that he has "Magnified above His Name".

If you refuse to submit to its' authority, you will die in your sins. Your mass can't help you and your priest has no authority to help you. There is one mediator between God and man, and nobody in between.

 

[chrysostom]

The bible does.

who gave you the bible?
-the church