Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

Status
Not open for further replies.

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
The Father doesn't have a God. Jesus does. When Jesus was born and made of a woman his Father became both his Father and his God.

That doesn't answer my question.

My question was:

Who said the Father was [...never born or made of a woman...]?

Is that a prerequisite for being God?
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I answered your question by saying that the Father became both Jesus' Father and his God when Jesus was born of a woman. The Father doesn't have a Father or a God.
Jesus existed before He came to Earth.

So... did He go from being God to not God because He was born of a woman?
 
Last edited:

Vail Lifted

BANNED
Banned
Jesus existed before He came to Earth.

So... did go from being God to not God because He was born of a woman?

When did the Father become Jesus' God?

Are you saying that Jesus' Father is not his Father and his God but that Jesus has no Father or God?

Jesus is called "the firstborn out of the dead".

Being raised from the dead is there likened to being born from the womb of a woman. Jesus was first called the son of God when he was born of a woman. "That which is born of flesh is flesh".

When Jesus was born out of the dead he was born of spirit. "That which is born of spirit is spirit.".

Now Jesus is called the son of God with power by the spirit of holiness (holy spirit)by being resurrected (born) from out of the dead.

Rom 1:4 ; John 3:6
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
When did the Father become Jesus' God?

Are you saying that Jesus' Father is not his Father and his God but that Jesus has no Father or God?

Jesus is called "the firstborn out of the dead".

Being raised from the dead is there likened to being born from the womb of a woman. Jesus was first called the son of God when he was born of a woman. "That which is born of flesh is flesh".

When Jesus was born out of the dead he was born of spirit. "That which is born of spirit is spirit.".

Now Jesus is called the son of God with power by the spirit of holiness (holy spirit)by being resurrected (born) from out of the dead.

Rom 1:4 ; John 3:6

You didn't answer my question.

Did Jesus go from being God to not God because He was born of a woman?

I'll answer yours once you answer mine. Ok?
 

Vail Lifted

BANNED
Banned
You didn't answer my question.

Did Jesus go from being God to not God because He was born of a woman?

Jesus became son of God when he was born of a woman. He was then "crucified in weakness" of the flesh.

He then was declared to be son of God in power by being born from the dead. Called "first or chief born from the dead"
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Jesus became son of God when he was born of a woman. He was then "crucified in weakness" of the flesh.

He then was declared to be son of God in power by being born from the dead. Called "first or chief born from the dead"

Thank you for answering my question.

When did the Father become Jesus' God?

The Father became Jesus' God at the incarnation of Christ, because Christ took on a second nature, that of Man.

Are you saying that Jesus' Father is not his Father and his God but that Jesus has no Father or God?

No.

Question:

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?

Jesus is called "the firstborn out of the dead".

Agreed.

Being raised from the dead is there likened to being born from the womb of a woman. Jesus was first called the son of God when he was born of a woman.

Are you sure about that?

"That which is born of flesh is flesh".

Is that supposed to prove something (especially since you're taking it out of context...)?

When Jesus was born out of the dead he was born of spirit. "That which is born of spirit is spirit.".

Again, taking something out of context doesn't help your position.

Now Jesus is called the son of God with power by the spirit of holiness (holy spirit)by being resurrected (born) from out of the dead.

Rom 1:4 ; John 3:6

Do you have a point?

-------

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma and JudgeRightly,
This is where your gross ignorance is on display. You presuppose that all mentioned persons are automatically individuated beings, and for humans that is the case. But for divinity, there can be one ousia (“being”, or more correctly the essential wealth of existence) and multiple hypostases (“persons”, or more correctly objective foundational underlying realites of indiviudal existence).
So all you’ve done is indicate that you don’t know the difference between an ousia and an hypostasis, and that you don’t have any idea how the Patristics utilized these terms according to Apostolic influence to determine the minutiae of the Trinity doctrine.
You aren’t even attempting to comprehend that which you come against. And you’re maliciously projecting created and human necessities upon an uncreated and divine Being.
The Father is God (Divinity), and so is His Spirit and His Logos. The Greek anarthrous noun in John 1:1 clearly demonstrates this, but you have no idea what that means because you’re not a linguist or exegete. You’re just a guy trying to infuse his own frail and pathetic human reasoning into Theology Proper in conflict with the ancient authentic historical orthodox Christian faith. Your insufficient and hyper-limited subjective opinions and perceptions don’t prevail against Apostolic, Patristic, and linguistic truth just because you have no idea what the differences are between ousios and hypostases.
AND... By His Logos. He spoke to create. Just because you don’t understand how God’s Logos could be the Son, it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. (And you should give up teaching children since you’re a neophyte.)
And you’re teaching absolute antichrist heresy, for which you will be aeviternally culpable. You should be trembling, not bragging.
And all because you can’t comprehend how the humanity of Theanthropos could be represented in this manner with Him still being divinity. That’s because you don’t know what the Greek words mean. So this is your English fallacies developing faithless children and teens, for which you will face judgment as do all heretics.
I appreciate your long Post which I have abbreviated above. Yes I cannot accept your view, but believe that Jesus was a human, conceived by the Holy Spirit and thus born the Son of God Luke 1:35. He did not have two natures and did not exist before he was born. As a child he grew in wisdom Luke 2:40,52 and as such he did not have two minds.
The Father became Jesus' God at the incarnation of Christ, because Christ took on a second nature, that of Man.
Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?
Refer my answer as above. The narrative and teaching of Luke 1 and 2 clearly teaches that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Vail Lifted

BANNED
Banned
Thank you for answering my question.



The Father became Jesus' God at the incarnation of Christ, because Christ took on a second nature, that of Man.



No.

Question:

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?



Agreed.



Are you sure about that?



Is that supposed to prove something (especially since you're taking it out of context...)?



Again, taking something out of context doesn't help your position.



Do you have a point?

-------

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?

I not taking anything out of context. I've already shown that Jesus is called the "firstborn of the dead". Therefore the Scripture likens the resurrection of the dead as being born from out of the dead. To be as the angels of God in heaven is to be called spirit. In fact, Jesus is now called a "life giving spirit".

Jesus said to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…

In other words, in order to enter the kingdom of God one must become spirit by being BORN of the spirit(from the dead)as opposed to being flesh and blood.... born of flesh.

Now, Paul speaks of the same exact thing when he says: "Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

When the Scripture says that Jesus was "crucified in weakness" it refers to the weakness of the flesh which is perishable and cannot enter the kingdom of God. When Jesus was made of a woman he was of the same flesh as the rest of mankind. flesh is born of flesh.

When Jesus was declared to be son of God in power it was because he was firstborn from the dead by being born again of the holy spirit and is now spirit, called life giving spirit.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I not taking anything out of context. I've already shown that Jesus is called the "firstborn of the dead". Therefore the Scripture likens the resurrection of the dead as being born from out of the dead. To be as the angels of God in heaven is to be called spirit. In fact, Jesus is now called a "life giving spirit".

Jesus said to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…

In other words, in order to enter the kingdom of God one must become spirit by being BORN of the spirit(from the dead)as opposed to being flesh and blood.... born of flesh.

Now, Paul speaks of the same exact thing when he says: "Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

When the Scripture says that Jesus was "crucified in weakness" it refers to the weakness of the flesh which is perishable and cannot enter the kingdom of God. When Jesus was made of a woman he was of the same flesh as the rest of mankind. flesh is born of flesh.

When Jesus was declared to be son of God in power it was because he was firstborn from the dead by being born again of the holy spirit and is now spirit, called life giving spirit.
Still not answering my questions.

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma and JudgeRightly, I appreciate your long Post which I have abbreviated above. Yes I cannot accept your view, but believe that Jesus was a human, conceived by the Holy Spirit and thus born the Son of God Luke 1:35. He did not have two natures and did not exist before he was born. As a child he grew in wisdom Luke 2:40,52 and as such he did not have two minds.

Pretty sure no one has claimed such.

Refer my answer as above. The narrative and teaching of Luke 1 and 2 clearly teaches that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

In other words, you think that Jesus DID NOT exist prior to the Holy Spirit conceiving Him in Mary's womb. Is that correct?
 

Vail Lifted

BANNED
Banned
Still not answering my questions.

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary's womb?

If you want to claim that Jesus existed as the one God before he was born of Mary then you must also admit that after he was born of Mary he was no longer that One God because Jesus never claimed to possess anything that was not given, committed, or appointed to him from the Father.
 

7djengo7

New member
Greetings again 7djengo7, If we say that there is One God and this One God is the Father, as defined for example in 1 Corinthians 8:6, then this defines that the One Being called “the Father” is the One God.

I notice, here, that you slipped in the phrase, "the One Being called "the Father"". Where'd that come from? What (if anything) do you mean by "being"? What would you say makes something a being?
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
If you want to claim that Jesus existed as the one God before he was born of Mary then you must also admit that after he was born of Mary he was no longer that One God because Jesus never claimed to possess anything that was not given, committed, or appointed to him from the Father.
Not what I was asking. Answer the question I asked, and not the one you wish I would ask.

Did Jesus exist before he was conceived in Mary's womb?
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again 7djengo7,
I notice, here, that you slipped in the phrase, "the One Being called "the Father"". Where'd that come from? What (if anything) do you mean by "being"? What would you say makes something a being?
From my 1968 print copy of Webster’s: being, n. 1. Existence, state of existing. 2. A human creature, living person; Deity: the Supreme Being.
Thus humans exist and are beings, and God the Father exists and is a Being and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God exists and is a Being, and he is a separate Being from God His Father. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God, two Beings in heaven Psalm 110:1.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again JudgeRightly,
Pretty sure no one has claimed such.
My assessment of the Trinitarian view is that God the Son after the birth had two natures, one a continuity of His Divine Nature and the other his human nature. When Jesus was a child did he still have His Divine Mind, or was he completely restricted to his human mind that needed to be instructed and grow in wisdom? When Jesus was a child was He also God the Son and to what extent was he all-powerful, immortal, supreme, equal with God, not able to be tempted, omniscient (all-knowing), and cannot be seen by men?
In other words, you think that Jesus DID NOT exist prior to the Holy Spirit conceiving Him in Mary's womb. Is that correct?
Jesus DID NOT exist before he was conceived and born. Jesus was a human with God the Father as his father, and Mary as his mother and is thus the Son of God, a descendant of David and heir to the throne of David Luke 1:32-33. He is thus also a descendant of Adam and thus the son of Adam inheriting fallen human nature Hebrews 2:14, made lower than the angels Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:9 and he is also The Son of Man Psalm 8:4, Psalm 80:17. No other child born pre-existed, and this is not taught in the Bible. Some people believe in reincarnation and Mormons also believe that everyone pre-existed before their birth.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
The Father was never born or made of a woman.

The Father doesn't have a God. Jesus does. When Jesus was born and made of a woman his Father became both his Father and his God.

I answered your question by saying that the Father became both Jesus' Father and his God when Jesus was born of a woman. The Father doesn't have a Father or a God.

When did the Father become Jesus' God?

Are you saying that Jesus' Father is not his Father and his God but that Jesus has no Father or God?

Jesus is called "the firstborn out of the dead".

Being raised from the dead is there likened to being born from the womb of a woman. Jesus was first called the son of God when he was born of a woman. "That which is born of flesh is flesh".

When Jesus was born out of the dead he was born of spirit. "That which is born of spirit is spirit.".

Now Jesus is called the son of God with power by the spirit of holiness (holy spirit)by being resurrected (born) from out of the dead.

Rom 1:4 ; John 3:6

Jesus became son of God when he was born of a woman. He was then "crucified in weakness" of the flesh.

He then was declared to be son of God in power by being born from the dead. Called "first or chief born from the dead"

I not taking anything out of context. I've already shown that Jesus is called the "firstborn of the dead". Therefore the Scripture likens the resurrection of the dead as being born from out of the dead. To be as the angels of God in heaven is to be called spirit. In fact, Jesus is now called a "life giving spirit".

Jesus said to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’…

In other words, in order to enter the kingdom of God one must become spirit by being BORN of the spirit(from the dead)as opposed to being flesh and blood.... born of flesh.

Now, Paul speaks of the same exact thing when he says: "Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

When the Scripture says that Jesus was "crucified in weakness" it refers to the weakness of the flesh which is perishable and cannot enter the kingdom of God. When Jesus was made of a woman he was of the same flesh as the rest of mankind. flesh is born of flesh.

When Jesus was declared to be son of God in power it was because he was firstborn from the dead by being born again of the holy spirit and is now spirit, called life giving spirit.

If you want to claim that Jesus existed as the one God before he was born of Mary then you must also admit that after he was born of Mary he was no longer that One God because Jesus never claimed to possess anything that was not given, committed, or appointed to him from the Father.

In complete ignorance of lexicography, you are arguing against a caricature of the Trinity doctrine with literally no understanding of what the Trinity is. You can’t validly address this topic.

What is your affiliation? Christadelphian? Other?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma and JudgeRightly, I appreciate your long Post which I have abbreviated above. Yes I cannot accept your view, but believe that Jesus was a human, conceived by the Holy Spirit and thus born the Son of God Luke 1:35. He did not have two natures and did not exist before he was born. As a child he grew in wisdom Luke 2:40,52 and as such he did not have two minds.
Refer my answer as above. The narrative and teaching of Luke 1 and 2 clearly teaches that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

This isn’t “my view”, whether you accept it or not (and of course you won’t, because you’ve imbibed false doctrine in total ignorance from your indoctrination); this is the authentic Christian faith according to the divinely inspired text. It has NEVER been validly in question in the two millennia of the Christian faith.

You MUST learn the Trinity doctrine for what it is before you can begin any attempt to refute any aspect of it. All your assertions are barely even strawmen. Total caricatures.

You aren’t even genuine enough to have the charity of learning the Trinity doctrine for what it both IS and ISN’T. You have sacrificed every shred of credibility by mirepresenting Theology Proper. You obviously don’t even know how badly you have contorted and perveted something you know nothing of. It’s truly pitiful. You should at least care about that.

What’s the name of your cult? Will you ever answer?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Greetings again 7djengo7, From my 1968 print copy of Webster’s: being, n. 1. Existence, state of existing. 2. A human creature, living person; Deity: the Supreme Being.
Thus humans exist and are beings, and God the Father exists and is a Being and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God exists and is a Being, and he is a separate Being from God His Father. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God, two Beings in heaven Psalm 110:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

Seriously? Sigh.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top