Isaiah 53 is about ISRAEL

[Elia]

You have no reading comprehension. When you say that Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1 speak of Cyrus II, who worshiped, honored, and served Marduk, you do so out of desperation and fear of what it really means if Cyrus is not who the passage concerns, (because the alternative does not agree with your doctrine). YHWH says that the "Kuros" of that passage is both His Shepherd and His Mashiyach. You do therefore indeed equate the Most High with a false Babylonian idol-god because Cyrus clearly worshiped Marduk and you say that Cyrus was both the Shepherd and the Mashiyach of the Most High God.

You have already shown that you will not see any evidence even when it is set right in front of your very own eyes. In addition Isaiah 45 is right there in the midst of the "suffering servant" passages and yet, out of the sky blue thin air, you take a worshiper of Marduk and make him the central character and Mashiyach of the suffering servant passages. Talk about desperation! :crackup:

Bs"d

So you think that this text: "“Thus says Y-H-W-H to His anointed, To Koresh, whose right hand I have held— To subdue nations before him"
does not speak about Koresh??

If that's what you think, that further discussion is futile.

 

[Elia]

You will find out at the Judgment !

Bs"d

So you're just shouting and you cannot explain what you're talking about.

Thanks for nothing.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

So you're just shouting and you cannot explain what you're talking about.

Thanks for nothing.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

You should have known what I was talking about, but since you have to ask,you will find out at the Judgment !

 

[OCTOBER23]

Isaiah 52:13 describes the servant of the Lord as the Nation of Israel in Babylonian

 

[daqq]

Bs"d

So you think that this text: "“Thus says Y-H-W-H to His anointed, To Koresh, whose right hand I have held— To subdue nations before him"
does not speak about Koresh??

If that's what you think, that further discussion is futile.

And you think a servant of Marduk is the better answer! :crackup:

LXX ~ Kuros, ("Kurie Kurie", that is, Master Kuros, [Mashiyach]).

 

[Elia]

Isaiah 52:13 describes the servant of the Lord as the Nation of Israel in Babylonian

Bs"d

It describes Israel, and continues to do so all through Isaiah 53.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

It describes Israel, and continues to do so all through Isaiah 53.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Jesus Christ is Israel, He and His Body the Church Isa 49:3

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.


Christ and His Church are One flesh !

 

[Interplanner]

What is this Bs"d stuff? A member?

re Is 53.
yes it appears that the servant is Israel, but that is to read the OT on its own, which is veiled. It needs to be read in Christ, and there is a divine decree says the end of Rom 16, that the actual meaning of the OT is now clear in Christ. The proof of this divine decree is not a "text" on some document but the fact that many from among the nations are believing the Gospel.

Most of Judaism at the time thought that the mission of the servant was going to be fulfilled through education about the Law. Pre-Christian Pharisaism followed the model of Ezra and Nehemiah on this. But that wasn't to be the mission going forward from Christ. So Eph 3:5 is the most critical and perhaps surprising sentence: that everything belonging to Israel is shared with the nations 'through the Gospel'--ie, not through the Law. Gospel vs Law is the most important contrast of Christian belief vs Judaism. It is not about ethics, but about basis of blessing--the same blessing as expressed to Abraham, and to Adam before him.

 

[CherubRam]

Bs"d

An interesting point is that NOWHERE in the whole Tanach is the messiah ever referred to as "servant of God".



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

I thought I would mention that Yahwah calls him "My Righteous Servant."
Isaiah 53:11
After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

 

[CherubRam]

Isaiah 53:9 shows that it is a person being spoken of and not a nation.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

 

[trutherator]

Indeed! I have no doubt about it, especially after reading the following:

The Consensus of the Messiah in Isaiah 53

There is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I can agree with that too. Well, the Prophet identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that the Messiah could be an individual. You can read it in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Now, if we should apply Logic to that consensus, the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Tell us: Are we supposed to hope for, or expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not!

The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. I mean, as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night. It means, the laws of nature will function as they have been assigned to from the beginning. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. And that's the second Prophet to identify the Messiah by name with Israel.

The main role of the Messiah is to serve as the Divine means by which God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations. You can find this truth in Ezekiel 20:41. In addition, that's the third Prophet to identify Israel by name with that Divine Messianic role.

Last but not least, if we read Habakkuk 3:13 in the originals in Hebrew, it says that the Lord went out for the salvation His People HaMoshiach. In the KJV we read "for the salvation of His People, even His anointed one." But since this fourth Prophet mentions "His People," We all can understand that the text is talking about Israel the Jewish People. The bottom line is that the Messiah is the collective in Israel and not an individual in particular.
Ben

I have to call foul on selective misuse of scripture this way. Pastor I knew once read Isaiah aloud to a Jew. The Jew called him a liar for saying it was from the Old Testament.

There are two ways Israel has blessed the world in a "messianic way". One is, Abraham is promised that through God's promise to him, the whole world will be blessed by the Messiah.

The second one is, the Messiah himself when he came. His incarnation, words of life, death, burial and resurrection made every one that receives him into a child of the living God, adoptive heirs with Christ of the kingdom of God.

He is not a Jew who is circumcised according to the flesh, but he is a Jew that is circumcised in spirit, born again into the children of God by faith.

 

[jamie]

...adoptive heirs with Christ of the kingdom of God.

Adoptive?

To be born of the Spirit one must first be begotten of the Spirit.

Jesus said, "I am ascending to My Father and your Father..." (John 20:17 NKJV)

We have the same father as Jesus. However, Israel was adopted as God's firstborn son.

 

[CherubRam]

I thought I would mention that Yahwah calls him "My Righteous Servant."
Isaiah 53:11
After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:9 shows that it is a person being spoken of and not a nation.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

God says repeatedly at different times that Israel broke His covenant, therefore, Israel could no be His "Righteous Servant." In the end, God revoked the covenant He made with Israel.

Yahshua is Yahwah's "Righteous Servant."

 

[daqq]

Jesus Christ is Israel,

:thumb:

Was just discussing that recently elsewhere:

"If Moshe and the Prophets not they hear: neither would they be convinced if someone arose from the dead."

Exodus 3:1-6
1. Now Moshe kept the flock of Yithro, his father in law, Priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mount of ha-Elohim, Horeb.
2. And the Malak-Angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3. And Moshe said, I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4. And when YHWH saw that he turned aside to see, Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moshe, Moshe! And he said, Here am I.
5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off your shoes from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy ground.
6. Moreover he said, I am Elohey of your father, Elohey Abraham, Elohey Yitschaq, and Elohey Yakob. And Moshe hid his face because he feared to look toward ha-Elohim.

But Matthew and Mark quote Exo 3:6 while Luke quotes Exo 3:15, (YHWH Elohim).

Was just discussing that recently elsewhere.

Isaiah 45:3 Transliterated Unaccented
3. Wnatatiy lka 'owtsrowt choshek uwmaTmuney mictariym, lma`an teda` kiy- 'niy YHWH ha-Qowre' bshimka 'Elohey Yisra'el.

Isaiah 45:1-5
1. Thus says YHWH to His Mashiyach, to Koresh, [LXX - "Kuros" which is the root for Kurios] whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut:
2. I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, [hidden from the foundation of the world - Matthew 13:35] that you may know that I am YHWH, Who calls you by your name: 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. For the sake of Yaakob My servant, and Yisrael My chosen-elect, I have even called you by your name: I have surnamed you, ["Elohey Yisrael"] though you have not known Me!
5. I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside Me: I gird you, though you have not known Me:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4531697&postcount=8

Exodus 4:22
22. And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says YHWH, Yisrael is My Son, My Firstborn!

In addition the Septuagint version of Exodus 4:22 reads Prototokos.
And all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan, (Matthew 11:13).

 

[Elia]

I thought I would mention that Yahwah calls him "My Righteous Servant."
Isaiah 53:11
After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Bs"d

In all of Isaiah 53 is no messiah to be found. So your assumption that God calls him "my righteous servant" is wrong.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

I have to call foul on selective misuse of scripture this way. Pastor I knew once read Isaiah aloud to a Jew. The Jew called him a liar for saying it was from the Old Testament.

Bs"d

Then he was a very ignorant Jew.

No use bringing opinions of very ignorant persons.


Fact is and stays that there is not the slightest indication, let alone a proof, in the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

The proofs that it speaks about the people of Israel are many and strong.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

God says repeatedly at different times that Israel broke His covenant, therefore, Israel could no be His "Righteous Servant." In the end, God revoked the covenant He made with Israel.

Bs"d

The Christian churches believe in the theory that G.d rejected His chosen people, and that instead the Christians are the new spiritual Israel. However, G.d says clearly in the Holy Torah that He will never break his covenant with the Jewish people, even not when they stray away from Him. When the Jews go astray G.d will punish them. (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them seven times harder. (idem:18-22) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to G.d, He will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:27-28) But despite all this, G.d will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."

"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that the LORD hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26

If G.d rejected the Jews, why then is He now fulfilling the prophecies that He will gather in the Jews and bring them back to their land? "Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?---Surely we see here the hand of G.d.


"And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."
Leviticus 26:44-45

Gods covenant with the Jews will NEVER be broken!
​

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[CherubRam]

Bs"d

The Christian churches believe in the theory that G.d rejected His chosen people, and that instead the Christians are the new spiritual Israel. However, G.d says clearly in the Holy Torah that He will never break his covenant with the Jewish people, even not when they stray away from Him. When the Jews go astray G.d will punish them. (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them seven times harder. (idem:18-22) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to G.d, He will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:27-28) But despite all this, G.d will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."

"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that the LORD hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26

If G.d rejected the Jews, why then is He now fulfilling the prophecies that He will gather in the Jews and bring them back to their land? "Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?---Surely we see here the hand of G.d.


"And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."
Leviticus 26:44-45

Gods covenant with the Jews will NEVER be broken!
​

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.


Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.

Did Yahwah revoke His moral commands, no, He did not. Yahwah revoked the priesthood that governed the festivals and sacrifices.

Matthew 21:43
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your vindication, and all kings your glory; you will be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will bestow.

Before Christ was born into this world the faithful were called Jews. The terms "Nazarene" and "The Way" were around before Christ also. From Paul himself we know that he was born at Tarsus in Cilicia (Acts 21:39), and who was a Roman citizen (Acts 16:37; and 22:26-28.)

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank God that I speak in [different] tongues / languages] more than all of you.

Knowing the Greek language, that would be reason for him to use the word "Christian" in his writings to Greek speaking people.

Isaiah 65:15
You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse;(Jews) the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name. Christian
Jew is the modern day short form term for Judean.


Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

 

[CherubRam]

Leviticus 26:44-45New International Version (NIV)

44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”

God said He would not break His covenant with them while they were in captivity.

When God made another covenant, it made the old covenant obsolete.

Jeremiah 31:31
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

 

[Elia]

Leviticus 26:44-45New International Version (NIV)

44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”

God said He would not break His covenant with them while they were in captivity.

Bs"d

God says He will NEVER break the covenant with the Jews:

"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that Y-H-W-H hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith Y-H-W-H: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26

When God made another covenant, it made the old covenant obsolete.

Jeremiah 31:31
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

The new covenant is the old covenant, written on the hearts of the Jews:

“Behold, the days are coming, says Y-H-W-H, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says Y-H-W-H. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Y-H-W-H: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know Y-H-W-H,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Y-H-W-H. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

So this is the new covenant, to be made in the end of days: "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Y-H-W-H: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

So it is the law of God, written on the heart of the Jews.

The same law that is written in the Torah.

And of course it is very clear that this new covenant is not yet in effect, because it is written: "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know Y-H-W-H,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Y-H-W-H."
And it is obvious that now not everybody knows Y-H-W-H, otherwise I didn't have to debate here.

So the new covenant is the old law, written on the hearts, and it is not yet in effect.

And when that new covenant goes into effect:

"says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

The Jews will still be Gods people.

Jeremiah continues:

"Thus says Y-H-W-H,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(Y-H-W-H of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says Y-H-W-H,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

The Jews are Gods chosen people.

Forever.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5