Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?

Hobie

Hobie

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You can say they represent the Saints, yet they are still of wood or stone or metal, and people come and worship them no matter how it is called. Now what does scripture say, does God allow even the idol of a 'saint' or any idol, lets see...

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;
and turn away your faces from all your abominations."
-Ezekiel 14:6

So how as history shows us can any church embrace and gather as many statues, medals, relics, and artifacts to themselves as a sign of holiness unto God. The Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

Deuteronomy 29:17, "And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Some churches teach their followers to bow down before these 'saints' when in prayer. Anyone can walk into these church and see kneelers before every statue place within. However, the Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

So even though they change the name its still the same thing, so is 'Veneration of the Saints' something the same sin against God?
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
Hobie said:
You can say they represent the Saints, yet they are still of wood or stone or metal, and people come and worship them no matter how it is called. Now what does scripture say, does God allow even the idol of a 'saint' or any idol, lets see...

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;
and turn away your faces from all your abominations."
-Ezekiel 14:6

So how as history shows us can any church embrace and gather as many statues, medals, relics, and artifacts to themselves as a sign of holiness unto God. The Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

Deuteronomy 29:17, "And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Some churches teach their followers to bow down before these 'saints' when in prayer. Anyone can walk into these church and see kneelers before every statue place within. However, the Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

So even though they change the name its still the same thing, so is 'Veneration of the Saints' something the same sin against God?
Click to expand...

If venerate means to respect or honor then sure, but if it is making idols out of them, then no.

We are to honor one another
 
Hobie

Hobie

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oatmeal said:
If venerate means to respect or honor then sure, but if it is making idols out of them, then no.

We are to honor one another
Click to expand...

The problem is that the pagan masses worshiped the idols and the church took them in and basically just renamed their idols to saints, so they just continued as they had done from before.
 
Guyver

Guyver

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Hobie said:
The problem is that the pagan masses worshiped the idols and the church took them in and basically just renamed their idols to saints, so they just continued as they had done from before.
Click to expand...

What is pagan? You can’t even answer questions about it, how dare you use it in your repertoire?

You’re pretending, like Mr. Rogers? And you’re good with that. You pretend about things.
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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No! God will not share His glory with another.

Isaiah 42:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
 
steko

steko

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All true believers are saints.
A saint is one who is sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Saints are believers who have been 'set apart' from nonbelievers.
It's a misuse of the term to only apply it to those who are no longer here and regard them as somehow better than other believers.
 
Idolater

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
steko said:
All true believers are saints.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
steko said:
A saint is one who is sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Saints are believers who have been 'set apart' from nonbelievers.
It's a misuse of the term to only apply it to those who are no longer here
Click to expand...
It's a different "saint" when the Catholic Church confirms that someone is literally in heaven right now. And that's all the Church ever means in declaring that a departed person is a "saint," it means that they are confirmed to be in heaven right now.
steko said:
and regard them as somehow better than other believers.
Click to expand...
Not at all better, just confirmed to be true believers, in a way that is impossible to do, this side of the grave.

And it's in keeping with the era immediately succeeding the Apostolic era, after all the Apostles had died, the Church knew that they were all true believers and with the Lord in glory already. They venerated them as true believers, "saints," in a way that we cannot know in this life about anybody. We know that anybody in heaven right now was /is a true believer.
 
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