VladtheDestroyer
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I think that is a very good way to see it.
I believe you are probably thinking about Jerehmiah.
Is The Physical Realm Analogous To A Simulated Reality?
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I think that is a very good way to see it.
I believe you are probably thinking about Jerehmiah.
VladtheDestroyer
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Derf
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Ok. How do you contrast symbology with sumulation?
Derf
Well-known member
Ezekiel had go around naked for awhile, didn't he?
Written words don't match audible words ... but funny. Yet, I prefer a song more like this: No body likes me. Everybody hates me. Think I'll go eat worms. Big fat juicy ones. Little tiny tiny ones. Oh, how they wiggly and squirm. Bite their heads off. Suck their juice out. Throw their skins away. Nobody knows how a girl can live on worms three times a day. Wonder if they will sing that in the place where worms never die????
ttruscott
Well-known member
Careful here - you have just wandered into that pre-earth existence theology garbage... the theology that takes so many verses at face value because it solves the doublethink conundrums of ordinary orthodoxy,
ttruscott
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Nor mouths to sing nor ears to listen.
Reminds me of C. S. Lewis: We are not bodies who have a spirit, we are spirits who have a body.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I mean:
Reality is what is in our lives. A play on a stage uses real things yet is only a simulacrum of our lives. In the same way our lives here can be using real things and people but is only a stage for the morality play that is designed to bring HIS lost sheep back to HIMself as His heavenly Bride. We as players live the play to learn what HE wants us to learn, then we leave the play.
When you walk off the stage at death, you wait the wings until your resurrection when you return to real life in the spirit realm.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I don't think the angels singing at Christ's birth had physical brains, not the angels by the thousands on the hills above Elisha although the angels with God talking to Abraham at Sodom may have had brains. <biiiiig shrug>
You have asked for my thinking/opinion so here goes.
Siri says the definition of symbology is the use of symbols. a method used often for the unschooled. Well, I would consider that to be a close synonym for what I call symbolic figurative language such as personification, metaphors, similes and hyperbole as you might find in poetry. I would pair the use of these with the use of a parable - a story which can be told to extend one's depth of understanding and/or, as scripture insinuates, to delay the revelation of something until God wants it revealed. Scripture is full of this figurative language and the parables. They are told verbally as by Christ or in the OT told through the lives of real people. Personification is used to say a tree is a kingdom and it's king. The Rock is our Savior. fruits are our works. Example, I'm standing on the ROCK of salvation. Which means I'm putting my trust in the Savior. To me these parables and analogies are what you say is symbology.
Simulation? Well, I believe God can bring about/orchestrate a simulation when he wishes. It can even be lived out in one's life. Take the prophet Hosea for example. God directed him to take a wife and instructed him in the ways to treat her even when she had done wrong. Then God named each of their children. Each name told a truth [for example: Loammi means - not my people I will not be your God] ...... I think this act of orchestrating a real life example in one's life might fit my idea of a simulation.
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
I'm thinking that Jeremiah was the prophet whom God told to marry a prostitute, because that is how God said He felt in his relationship with rebellious Israel. But I have a fever of 104 right now, so I might be thinking clearly. It could be that both prophets fit the bill.
Jerehmiah was the prophet who was thrown into a well and Ezekiel was the one who laid on his side for 72 days. That much I can remember for certain!
Well, this [post 76] seemed to have wandered from the topic a bit but I have read all the posts. Maybe it has not. But it is a favorite topic of mine; so, I'm going give my rendition of what I see in scripture regarding God's design for spiritual mankind and his original body. I will tell you now I happen to believe that Gen. one and two are two different phases of creation. Just saying. Genesis one reveals the creation of spiritual humanity (characteristics / male female). At this point God the Spirit gives humanity commands which establish their purpose, the purpose of their bodies, and even their abilities and functions. Be fruitful and multiply .... have dominion ... eat herbs which bear seeds and fruit found on trees ... Then the time came when God the Spirit stopped his works of creation. Gen. 1:2-3@Right Divider After posting this, I did a search at kgov and found the following quote:
For emotional pain is felt directly whereas physical pain first must be translated into the non-physical realm of awareness before being "felt". For in the human brain, the soul and the spirit are interfaced to the body, and it is in the soul and spirit where awareness (thought, creativity, etc.) occurs. -
Now this particular quote seems to be from July, 2020
But the actual quote I had in mind was from a show more than 20 years ago, before I got married!
So for at least 20 years, I can say that this quote has been foundational to my understanding of how death relates to the body and the spirit, and in our relationship with God. In accordance not only to our understanding of science and the mind, but in accordance with the Bible itself! And not once in my life have found a single conflict that would cause me to dump that specific idea.
Now that isn't to say the way I model these thing in my above post is perfect. But the core idea I base this model on, has held true for more than 20 years. And I have studied the Bible every day for those 20 years.
So I can't be that far off? Can I?
I would love to know exactly how far off I am compared with what Bob teaches in his Bible studies on Paul!
AND THEN in Gen. 2:4 this was said - These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heaven. Did you notice the name change for God? It went from Elohiym to The LORD God. Well, I won't go into that but it is a mystery to many. Yet, it was The LORD who formed man's body. Lots of symbolism is used within chapter two and three. The LORD used the elements of creation called the ground and/or dust. He added a measure of life to that body he was preparing. It was described as a mist over the land. At that time every part of mankind's destined body was designed for a specific function so that when spiritual man entered it then it would be ready to function and experience the world. Example eyes that could see ... so forth. It was not until spiritual male female was added to that one body that humanity was called a soul. Gen. 2:7 To me that means not only eyes, but kidneys, nerve ending and the brain were all ready to be the conduit for man experiencing the world.
Yes, humanity experiences the world through our senses ... but it also is a way for us to have sentient contact with our Creator. Dreams, visions, opened eyed manifestations. It might be compared to an open window between a heavenly realm and our earthly realm.
Derf
Well-known member
Sorry about the fever. Take care of yourself.I'm thinking that Jeremiah was the prophet whom God told to marry a prostitute, because that is how God said He felt in his relationship with rebellious Israel. But I have a fever of 104 right now, so I might be thinking clearly. It could be that both prophets fit the bill.
Jerehmiah was the prophet who was thrown into a well and Ezekiel was the one who laid on his side for 72 days. That much I can remember for certain!
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Thanks, man.
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Careful here - you have just wandered into that pre-earth existence theology garbage... the theology that takes so many verses at face value because it solves the doublethink conundrums of ordinary orthodoxy,
Alright then. In my experience, pre-existence theology generally involves 1 or both of two things:
1. Before we were conceived in the flesh, we lived as angelic-like spiritual beings.
2. The Earth we live on now, is like a 2nd creation. The first earth was destroyed and became "void and formless"
What "conundrum" of ordinary orthodoxy does either of these things solve?
I like how you are questioning and seeking. I'm always asking questions. Few thoughts of mine regarding your statement above.
I do believe humanity was first created spirit. But by created I do not mean manifested. I think more like conception of a baby in the womb of God. They existed without having the ability to experience things to come. Bodiless. In Gen. 1 mankind was not not like the angels because angels already had their bodily form/presence. The angels had a super-natural form vs what we know about our presence here on earth.
God was forming mankind in Gen. 1 by speaking through his Word He established what humanity and other things were to become. To me this was the first stage of our creation. It was here that the Spirit of God was working. Now, in Gen. 2 Moses specifically uses a NAME for God. That is significant... for name changes were know in the Bible to signify a change in someone. Well, how did God change??? He tells us in Gen. 1. He had created an image / presence for himself. Therefore, God in Gen. 2 showed up spiritually and corporally within the world and literally formed things with his 'hands.' He greeted Adam and showed him around. Now you see the difference between the Spiritual God working and the presence of God working. The LORD God [KJE] is the visible presence of the Spirit. It is a named used when God appears. [Ex.3:2;Ex.3:14-15;Ex. 33;14,18-19; Ex. 34:5-6] Still the ONE God ... but with the ability to appear. The LORD then imparted the spirit of life through a breath [composed of wind and mist] from God. Guess one could say - spirit-life. Man became a completed soul when his body with a measure of life was joined with the established of measure of spirit-life God had created for male/female. Yet, God did not leave mankind sexually confusing ... he separated them with specific directions, purposes and rules.
A bit about figurative language and its meanings in Genesis 1 and 2. To me Ground and dust are the lifeless elements from which the world was formed. In other scripture we learn how water can refer to the Spirit of God and specifically of eternal life ... and we learn that God is life. Therefore the literal mist which was sent upon the ground and dust in Gen. 2 is symbolic of how God brought life into a dead world - water plus ground. The LORD of Genesis 2 [being the Spiritual perhaps audible {?} WORD of God seen in a corporal form] spoke and brought forth a mist [a measure of life] upon the world right before he created a body for mankind. Notice how it was after that impartation of life upon the earth God also planted a garden to grow. Anyway, God formed a body for the spirit of humanity after HIS OWN LIKENESS and that body had a measure of life already in it... all prepared and ready for Adam. The LORD immediately began to show Adam around and told him he could name what he saw! IOW, his eyes already functioned. God wanted a relationship with humanity and a place to enjoy his creation together. Like a Father and his children.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Good morning...
1. Before we were conceived in the flesh, we lived as angelic-like spiritual beings and heard the proclamation of GOD's deity and HIS gospel of salvation, Col 1:23. How we chose by our free will to respond to this claim; fully, partially or to absolutely reject it as lies from a false god divided all people made in HIS image into some as holy ie, believers who never sinned or as lost sheep, ie the believers who later sinned but were not condemned or those reprobate non-believers, never believers, who became condemned on the spot, as per John 3:18.
2. The Earth we live on now, is like a 2nd creation. The first earth was destroyed and became "void and formless"
I have heard one person espouse this in a semi-serious manner but it did not resonate with me so I have it as a solid meh, who cares?
Now as to your asking about my faith in things I believe are acceptable in my Christian opinion: (ImCo),
Pre-Conception Existence theology explain things in a way that reduces the need to accept opposites to both be true at the same time:
1. GOD is holy and can do no evil yet it is accepted by some that GOD creates sinners by having them created in Adam. GOD is light. Light cannot create darkness. GOD is love. Love cannot create evil. A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit, Matthew 7:18. A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water, James 3:11. NO ONE inherited any sin, sin nature, evil propensity or liability for sinfulness from Adam!!!
This supports the notion that sin can only accrue to those who choose to be sinners by making a free will decision to rebel against HIM or one of HIS commands.
But since we are indeed born as sinners as proven by our experiencing the wages of sin, ie death and suffering, Ps 58:3, when did we get the chance to make such a choice if not pre-earthly life as spirits?
2. We supposedly have a free will at the same time we are enslaved by the power of sin. All sinners are enslaved to sin and so cannot save themselves yet we are saved by grace only if we choose to accept His offer of grace by our free will which we do not have...??
IF we can make a free will choice to accept GOD's grace, then we cannot be enslaved to sin in any meaningful way and Jesus was babbling! IF we are truly enslaved by sin and cannot choose by a free will to accept grace then grace must be above our choice but then we must ask: Why is grace held from the reprobate who are condemend already???
It has also been pointed out that saved by grace above our choice to stay sinners is a rebuttal of our free will and the arbiter of our own fate, often calling us robots... PCE posits that we are sinners only by our free will decision to sin but the elect who chose to put their pre-earth faith in HIM as our saviour before our first sin but as elect free from the fear of hell, then chose to rebel. Grace then fulfills our first choice of faith in HIM and when it goes against our will on earth it is only going against our sinful will, not our free will at all. Grace fulfills faith, it does NOT force it on sinners.
3. GOD's love is perfectly patient and kind,1Cor 13:4, yet HE shuts the gates of hell on those who some believe to be able to repent without waiting for them to repent! IF sinners can repent then the gates of hell would never be locked so if any came to their senses they could be let free! If sinners have the ability to repent on earth to accept grace, why are they not allowed to repent in hell? What happened to HIS perfect loving patience? (PCE answer available...)
And the corollary to this one is: GOD wants all to be saved but HE supposedly created those HE knew would never repent then sent them to hell for it. Why would the GOD who is omniscient and loving do this!!
These contradictions are not mysteries, they are errors, sigh.
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