Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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False Prophet
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Matt 5 [22] "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court ; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court ; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5 [2]9 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 25 [41]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ;
Matt 25 [46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
James 3[6] And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity ; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2 Peter 2[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment ;
Isaiah 66[24] "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched ; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
Matt 5 [2]9 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 25 [41]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ;
Matt 25 [46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
James 3[6] And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity ; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2 Peter 2[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment ;
Isaiah 66[24] "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched ; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
False Prophet
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Mark 9 [43] "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.
Thanks for responding in my thread. May God bless you richly.
The verses you posted talk about going into hell and going into fire. How do reconcile them with what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28?
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
This says that we are to fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul, it doesn't say we are to fear the one who cannot destroy both body and soul but eternal torments body and soul forever.
Also your references to fire, have you considered what fire does to the things it burns up? Why would the Bible use a metaphor to explain the exact opposite of what really happens?
ETA, by the way, are you really a false prophet? I've never met one who comes right out and admits it up front. I wish more false prophets would do this. I'm just kidding though, I don't think you are a false prophet. Nice user-name.
I totally agree with you on this definition. However that doesn't mean that eternal and everlasting punishment is the same thing as eternal and everlasting torment. If someone's punishment is death, the death is also eternal and everlasting. So Matthew 25:46 is inconclusive as to whether the eternal punishment is eternal torment or eternal death. If you look at many other passages, it is clear that the punishment is death. (ie Romans 6:23, 2 Thess 1:9, John 3:16, etc,)
Another definition of aionios is "pertaining to the age", pertaining to the "aion". But I don't believe this makes any significant difference, since I believe that the coming "aion" or "age" will last forever.
God Bless!
Krsto
Well-known member
GR, you can do better than this. aionios means "an undefined period of time" - so it can be eternal, in the English sense of the word, or it can be just a long undefined period of time - like when God said no person shall inhabit a land forever that he destroyed in the OT yet people live there today.
If you fail to accept aionios for what it means that means you have no real interest in the truth, only defending your Catholic doctrines (yes, Catholic, they invented the idea of eternal conscious torment).
Krsto
Well-known member
Yup, serious as can be.
I was asked to show torment. Then you changed it to show eternal.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
read the verses know the meanings
Well, I guess we should believe Jesus then, and reject Eternal Conscious Torment. :chuckle:
Yes, I agree with this verse, don't you? It says they go into the everlasting fire. And we all know what happens to something that goes into the everlasting fire, it gets consumed by the fire. The fire is also called a consuming fire. It consumes whatever it burns up.
The thread was about eternal conscious torment or not from the beginning. Do you have any support at all for the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment?
BTW, Thanks for discussing this with me, I appreciate your input.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Well, I suppose if we were to take the highly symbolic Book of Revelation completely literally that would be three. The Devil, The Beast, and The False Prophet.
Can you find any verses that say "The wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead"? That's really what I'm looking for.
Here's something to think about when you read the Book of Revelation. The BOR was written in the "Apocalyptic Style" which is characterized by an abundant use of symbolism. It might not be the best idea to grab a doctrine from the BOR and then use it to interpret all of the rest of scripture. A sound hermeneutical principle is to interpret less clear passages in the light of more clear passages. Don't start in Revelation and work backwards from there.
Actually, that's just a friendly suggestion. You can do whatever you want. Bless you brother!
False Prophet
New member
Jude 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
There is still a place called hell, and people are going to burn there forever and ever.
Rev 14 [11] "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
There is still a place called hell, and people are going to burn there forever and ever.
Rev 14 [11] "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Well, Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed by fire, and they are the example of those who undergo the punishment of eternal fire, so Jude 7 actually shows the opposite of eternal conscious torment.
And you bring up a good point. We should look at the language of Revelation in the light of the rest of the scripture that it's language is taken from. The smoke rising in the BOR comes from a passage in Isaiah were the smoke of Edom's destruciton is said to rise forever. Edom was completely destroyed, so the language in the BOR refers to complete destruction, not eternal conscious torment.
Doormat
New member
I didn't call scripture a doctrine of demons, just the interpretation that leads to ECT. The Bible teaches annihilation of the wicked.
Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [Gehenna].
Gehenna is figurative for the destruction of the wicked on the Day of Lord.
1Corinthians 3:10-19
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Luke 17:26,27 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
In Revelation, strong Greek words are used. They are tormented day and night forever and ever. Your group tries to redefine torment and forever and ever, but it is a rationalization that does not stand up to scrutiny.
We also see the Beast/False Prophet still being tormented after 1000 years when Satan joins them. The lake of fire has Satan, demons, unregenerate men being tormented day and night forever and ever. There is no hint this is just the effects of a final punishment.
Lk. 16 is not a parable, but even if it is, it conveys spiritual truth/reality (or Jesus is a false teacher, liar, misinformed). It portrays conscious torment after death, not cessation.
Death is separation, not cessation. We have a spirit that will live forever by God's irrevocable design. This necessitates two destinies.
Doormat
New member
ECT is a doctrine of demons.
If you believe it, then what you believe amounts to Eternal "Christian" Torture.
Is that how you would like to punish your enemies if given the chance? Why or why not.
Perish does not mean atomize. A core of existence still can happen without cessation. Food perishes without disappearing.
Doormat
New member
Your misunderstanding about Revelation is in part because you are mixing the literal with the figurative. Here is a literal description of the consequences of "eternal fire."
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Note that Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today. They perished.
It is a parable. The rich man had a physical body, he wasn't in "Hell" but hades, yet he was suffering punishment in fire. It can't possibly be literal, but it's certainly a good figurative description of the hypocritical, unbelieving Israelites that Jesus had been dealing with.
The wages of sin is the second death. The second death is cessation of life. If one is separated from the life of God, it is cessation of life because their is no other source of life.
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