Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
longing for death.....

longing for death.....

The scriptures say that the wicked will long for death but it will be denied them.

As we've shared, the entire debate hinges on how 'death' is 'interpreted' or 'defined'.

Can you list the 'scriptures' that support your claim above?



pj
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Saving Love........

Saving Love........

Ironically, it is annihilationism that is a lie of Satan taught by pseudo-Christian cults, now crept into the church.


The irony is with ECT actually....as addressed earlier.

'Annihilationism' doesn't have to be a 'lie' of satan...if the second death is an actual dis-integration or destruction of an individual soul-entity/personality, whereby that soul really perishes. The metaphysics involved here may be complicated and speculative, if a soul can actually 'die' or not, and what that entails/means, etc.

The biblical, historical, orthodox view is conscious separation from God forever (but not medieval torture chamber).

Well,....this is rather loaded. True, ECT is a traditional-orthodox view...where souls are punished indefinitely without end entailing some kind of conscious torment or agony. This just feeds the primitive imagination and concepts of a firey hell with the wicked getting their just due, but 'karma' takes care of that all by itself, being a universal law. No monarch God in the sky or devil with pitchfork necessary in this scenario.

Again, you defend ECT by claiming its not a 'medieval torture chamber,....a clever proposal....but the concept of ECT kept intact within the provision of God's government still presents him in a bad light, especially when His will and nature are supposed to be divine love and eternal goodness. I'll say again, that all souls that still have the ability to repent or respond to 'God', are able to be saved by Love, since Love's will and nature include restoration.



pj
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Ironically, it is annihilationism that is a lie of Satan taught by pseudo-Christian cults, now crept into the church.

The biblical, historical, orthodox view is conscious separation from God forever (but not medieval torture chamber).

The story of Lazarus and Dives can only be teaching this very point. Tots often preaches against freewill but never against choice, it is man who has chosen to seperate himself from God...that is to seperate oneself from every good and comfortable thing God created for those thing only subsist in Him and by Him.

The inner soul of man, unlike the body of flesh which God has given to us for the purpose of navigating this life on earth...the flesh is temporary but the soul eternal.

The story of Lazarus and Dives teaches that the soul of the wicked has a future destiny and the soul of the righteous another.
 

Timotheos

New member
Correct. Jesus would not teach false doctrine, but spiritual truth consistent with reality.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

As you say, Jesus would not teach false doctrine. And he doesn't. See how he teaches that some are destroyed and some get eternal life?
This is the the teaching you are arguing against.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

As you say, Jesus would not teach false doctrine. And he doesn't. See how he teaches that some are destroyed and some get eternal life?
This is the the teaching you are arguing against.

The problem is your wrong view of the word and concept of destruction. A computer can be destroyed by water as to its normal function, but it still exists and can even be powered on and maybe do something.

I can destroy my reputation without ceasing to exist.
 

Timotheos

New member
The problem is your wrong view of the word and concept of destruction. A computer can be destroyed by water as to its normal function, but it still exists and can even be powered on and maybe do something.

I can destroy my reputation without ceasing to exist.

According to the Bible, the unrepentant will be burnt up like chaff. That is not destroying the chaff's reputation, that is destroying the chaff. When you destroy your reputation, your reputation is destroyed, not you. When you are destroyed, you are destroyed, not your reputation. Your problem is your wrong view of destruction. You don't accept that destruction really means destruction when it is written in the Bible. Why don't you set aside your preconceptions, and just read what the Bible says?
 

Krsto

Well-known member
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Evangelicals have long prided themselves on basing their beliefs on Scripture alone. In fact, however, we cling to sola scriptura when arguing against the unbiblical beliefs of other denominations, but when it comes to our own dearly held views (sometimes with our jobs at stake), we are not above ignoring biblical evidence that contradicts us. Should Evangelicals ever argue from tradition rather than Scripture? I say no. Should Evangelicals base their teachings on ambiguous texts viewed by the light of traditional understandings, while ignoring clear texts that say the opposite? I say no.

It seems to me that like Humpty Dumpty, we have often assigned arbitrary and contradictory meanings to words whose meanings are already perfectly clear in English, Hebrew, and Greek—words like “destroy,” “consume,” “dead,” and “devoured. “ It is true that these words as used in Scripture may refer to several areas of life, and it is also true that they are often used metaphorically. However, when metaphors are used, they always allude to the established meanings of words, not to their opposites.

We have come to this meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society to discuss the boundaries that do, should, or might keep us together and keep out all the others. I have come to believe that the biblical evidence for the annihilation of the wicked at the Last Judgment is so strong that not only should it be within the boundaries, but perhaps belief in the eternal torment of the wicked should be outside the boundaries, as it seems to be essentially based on eisegesis rather than exegesis.

However, I may be wrong. Indeed, I’ve come here primarily so you can show me where I’m wrong. Accordingly, what I plan to do is present to you a number of texts that seem clear to me, along with a few notes about the implications. When I have finished, I hope to learn from your response.

I would ask that you respond not by dragging out the ambiguous proof texts we know so well, but by dealing with the texts I present, whether you agree with me or disagree with me.

What Does “Eternal” Mean?
Eternal Judgment
krˆímatos aioœnˆíou
Heb 6:2 “of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
The period of judging or judgment is limited in duration, but the verdict will never be reversed, so the judgment is eternal.

Eternal Redemption
aioœnˆían luítroœsin
Heb 9:12 “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all having obtained eternal redemption.”
Jesus redeemed us “once for all,” but the effect of that redemption is eternal.

Eternal Salvation
soœteœrias aioœnˆíou
Heb 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
Jesus saved us by a “once for all” act, called salvation, but the effect of that salvation is eternal.

Eternal Sin
aioœnˆíou hamarteœmatos
Mark 3:29 “but He who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”
The sin occurs during a finite lifetime, but its effect is eternal.

Eternal Destruction
oílethron aioœnion
2 Thes 1:9 “These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”
Destroyed once, but the effect of that destruction is eternal.

Eternal Punishment
koílasin aioœnion / zoœeìn aioœnion
Matt 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
Resurrection to life happens “in a twinkling of an eye,” but the effect is eternal.
Execution is an event completed only by death, and it has not occurred unless death results, but it is an eternal punishment because it is irreversible.

What Do the “Worms and Fire” Verses Mean?
Mark 9:44, 46, 48 “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
Citing: Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses [peger; corpse/carcass] of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
1) One is not a corpse until one is dead. 2) Maggots eat only dead flesh, but fire kills maggots. 3) Thus, this is a mixed metaphor, and literal fulfillment is impossible. 4) But, the metaphors point to an irreversible process of destruction following death.

What Does It Mean to “Die”?
Gen. 7:21–23 And all flesh died [apeíthane] that moved on the earth: . . .”
John 11:26 “‘And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [apothaéneœ]. Do you believe this?’”
Logically, thus, those who do not believe will die at some time, becoming like those who died in the Flood.

What Does “Devoured” Mean?
2 Kings 1:12 “And fire of God came down from heaven and consumed [wattoœ}kal / kateéphagen] him and his fifty.” [kai« kate÷bh puvr e˙k touv oujranouv kai« kate÷fagen aujto\n]
Rev 20:9 “They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured [kateéphagen] them.” [kai« kate÷bh puvr e˙k touv oujranouv kai« kate÷fagen aujtou/ß.]
If in Elijah’s day God literally kills the wicked with fire from heaven, and if John then quotes this phrase exactly to indicate what he has seen in vision about the fate of the wicked, how can we say they will not be devoured to death?
*From }aœkal, to “eat up” or “consume.”

Isa 24:6 “Therefore the curse has devoured [eédetai, eaten] the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.”
Isa 26:11 “. . . Yes, the fire of Your enemies [hupenantˆíous] shall devour [eédetai, eaten] them.”
Heb 10:27 “. . . but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour [esthˆíein, eat up]the adversaries [hupenantˆíous].”
What has been devoured or eaten up exists no longer. What has been devoured by fire can no longer be alive. Esthioœ and edoœ usually refer to eating food, and they are often used metaphorically, but they are not metaphors of something not being eaten but remaining eternally uneaten.

What Does “Perish” Mean?
Matt 22:7 “‘But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed [apoœlesen] those murderers, and burned up their city.’”
Matt 26:52 “But Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish [apolountai] by the sword.’” [“Perish” here means death, not some continuing flaying with a sword throughout eternity.]
Luke 11:51 “‘from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished [apolomeénou] between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.’” [Was Zechariah still perishing in Jesus’ day, or had he completed the process implied in the word and perished, as the text says?]

Luke 13:3, 5 “‘I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish [apoleˆísthe].’” [If the process of perishing cannot be completed, then Jesus is wrong about this.]
John 3:16 “‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish [apoéleœtai] but have everlasting life.’” [If those who believe do not perish, then those who do not believe logically must perish. But if the wicked suffer everlasting torment in Hell, then they don’t perish, and they also receive everlasting life. Thus, both the righteous and the wicked receive everlasting life—the difference is only in the nature of that life. If this were so, then Jesus would be wrong here.]

2 Pet 3:6 “by which the world that then existed perished [apoœleto], being flooded with water.” [That world died, along with the people in it, except for Noah and family.]
2 Pet 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish [apoleésthai] but that all should come to repentance.” [Those do not repent perish. If they cannot die, they cannot perish.]
Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death [thanatos], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” [The wages are not eternal suffering, but death.]

What Does “Destroyed” Mean?
Luke 17:29 “‘but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [apoœlesen] them all.’”
Matt 10:29 “‘And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy [apoleésai] both soul and body in hell.’”
If they live on in eternal torment, they have not been destroyed.

What Is “Eternal Fire”?
Gen 19:24–29 “Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, . . . And Abraham . . . looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. . . . God destroyed the cities of the plain, . . . He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.”
Jude 7 “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example [deigma, a specimen], suffering the vengeance of eternal fire [puroìs aioœnˆíou].”
2 Pet 2:6 “and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, . . .”

How Long Does “Stubble” Burn?
Exod 15:7 [Against Egypt] “‘You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.’”
Obadiah 16, 18 [Against Edom] “‘And they shall be as though they had never been. . . . The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame; but the house of Esau shall be stubble; they shall kindle them and devour them, and no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,’ for the LORD has spoken.”
Isa 47:14 [Against Babylon] “‘Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them.’”
Nahum 1:9–10 [Day of the Lord] “Affliction will not rise up a second time. For while tangled like thorns, and while drunken like drunkards, they shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.”

What Are “Ashes”?
Mal 4:1, 3 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. . . . You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ Says the LORD of hosts.”

What Does “Slay” Mean?
Isa 65:15 [Day of the Lord] “‘For the Lord GOD will slay you.’”
Isa 66:15–16 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the LORD will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many.’”
Isa 66:24 “‘And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.’”
If they have been slain by the fire of God, they cannot still be alive. They are corpses.

What Does “End” Mean?
Zeph 1:18 [Day of the Lord] “‘Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy, for He will make speedy riddance [NIV, “a sudden end”] of all those who dwell in the land.’”
Matt 13:40 “‘As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.’”

What Does It Mean to “Cease to Be”?
Ezek. 28:18–19 “‘By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever.’” [Some think this is speaking covertly of Satan.]

Reprinted from an article by:
Ed Christian
Department of English
Kutztown University of Pennsylvania
Kutztown, PA 19530
610-683-4350 (office phone & fax)
610-562-0163 (home phone & message)
christia@kutztown.edu
 

Timotheos

New member
Good Job Krsto,

The irony is that those of us who read the Bible and accept what it says are accused of not believing the Bible. While those who believe that death means eternal life in hell, perish means never perish, destroy means kept alive forever, etc, are given a free pass. THEY (and only they) really believe the Bible. (Once all of the words in it are redefined according to the doctrine they hold)
 

Krsto

Well-known member
Good Job Krsto,

The irony is that those of us who read the Bible and accept what it says are accused of not believing the Bible. While those who believe that death means eternal life in hell, perish means never perish, destroy means kept alive forever, etc, are given a free pass. THEY (and only they) really believe the Bible. (Once all of the words in it are redefined according to the doctrine they hold)

Yeah, and they accuse ME of being in a cult (sigh).
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
We don't deny the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. We rely on him for eternal life.

We have been telling godrulz that for years, but he follows the RCC doctrines and uses them to condemn those who know Jesus is a man, Gods son, raised up by God and who know Him personally.

No wonder godrulz believes in a god who will torture men for eternity, fully conscious, having all their faculties, in the lake of fire.

Maybe the evil doctrine is born out of a spiteful heart which seeks revenge on those who do not agree with their RCC doctrines, and think that God is like them.

LA.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Evangelicals have long prided themselves on basing their beliefs on Scripture alone. In fact, however, we cling to sola scriptura when arguing against the unbiblical beliefs of other denominations, but when it comes to our own dearly held views (sometimes with our jobs at stake), we are not above ignoring biblical evidence that contradicts us. Should Evangelicals ever argue from tradition rather than Scripture? I say no. Should Evangelicals base their teachings on ambiguous texts viewed by the light of traditional understandings, while ignoring clear texts that say the opposite? I say no.

It seems to me that like Humpty Dumpty, we have often assigned arbitrary and contradictory meanings to words whose meanings are already perfectly clear in English, Hebrew, and Greek—words like “destroy,” “consume,” “dead,” and “devoured. “ It is true that these words as used in Scripture may refer to several areas of life, and it is also true that they are often used metaphorically. However, when metaphors are used, they always allude to the established meanings of words, not to their opposites.

We have come to this meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society to discuss the boundaries that do, should, or might keep us together and keep out all the others. I have come to believe that the biblical evidence for the annihilation of the wicked at the Last Judgment is so strong that not only should it be within the boundaries, but perhaps belief in the eternal torment of the wicked should be outside the boundaries, as it seems to be essentially based on eisegesis rather than exegesis.

However, I may be wrong. Indeed, I’ve come here primarily so you can show me where I’m wrong. Accordingly, what I plan to do is present to you a number of texts that seem clear to me, along with a few notes about the implications. When I have finished, I hope to learn from your response.

I would ask that you respond not by dragging out the ambiguous proof texts we know so well, but by dealing with the texts I present, whether you agree with me or disagree with me.

What Does “Eternal” Mean?
Eternal Judgment
krˆímatos aioœnˆíou
Heb 6:2 “of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
The period of judging or judgment is limited in duration, but the verdict will never be reversed, so the judgment is eternal.

Eternal Redemption
aioœnˆían luítroœsin
Heb 9:12 “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all having obtained eternal redemption.”
Jesus redeemed us “once for all,” but the effect of that redemption is eternal.

Eternal Salvation
soœteœrias aioœnˆíou
Heb 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
Jesus saved us by a “once for all” act, called salvation, but the effect of that salvation is eternal.

Eternal Sin
aioœnˆíou hamarteœmatos
Mark 3:29 “but He who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”
The sin occurs during a finite lifetime, but its effect is eternal.

Eternal Destruction
oílethron aioœnion
2 Thes 1:9 “These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”
Destroyed once, but the effect of that destruction is eternal.

Eternal Punishment
koílasin aioœnion / zoœeìn aioœnion
Matt 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
Resurrection to life happens “in a twinkling of an eye,” but the effect is eternal.
Execution is an event completed only by death, and it has not occurred unless death results, but it is an eternal punishment because it is irreversible.

What Do the “Worms and Fire” Verses Mean?
Mark 9:44, 46, 48 “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
Citing: Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses [peger; corpse/carcass] of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
1) One is not a corpse until one is dead. 2) Maggots eat only dead flesh, but fire kills maggots. 3) Thus, this is a mixed metaphor, and literal fulfillment is impossible. 4) But, the metaphors point to an irreversible process of destruction following death.

What Does It Mean to “Die”?
Gen. 7:21–23 And all flesh died [apeíthane] that moved on the earth: . . .”
John 11:26 “‘And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [apothaéneœ]. Do you believe this?’”
Logically, thus, those who do not believe will die at some time, becoming like those who died in the Flood.

What Does “Devoured” Mean?
2 Kings 1:12 “And fire of God came down from heaven and consumed [wattoœ}kal / kateéphagen] him and his fifty.” [kai« kate÷bh puvr e˙k touv oujranouv kai« kate÷fagen aujto\n]
Rev 20:9 “They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured [kateéphagen] them.” [kai« kate÷bh puvr e˙k touv oujranouv kai« kate÷fagen aujtou/ß.]
If in Elijah’s day God literally kills the wicked with fire from heaven, and if John then quotes this phrase exactly to indicate what he has seen in vision about the fate of the wicked, how can we say they will not be devoured to death?
*From }aœkal, to “eat up” or “consume.”

Isa 24:6 “Therefore the curse has devoured [eédetai, eaten] the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.”
Isa 26:11 “. . . Yes, the fire of Your enemies [hupenantˆíous] shall devour [eédetai, eaten] them.”
Heb 10:27 “. . . but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour [esthˆíein, eat up]the adversaries [hupenantˆíous].”
What has been devoured or eaten up exists no longer. What has been devoured by fire can no longer be alive. Esthioœ and edoœ usually refer to eating food, and they are often used metaphorically, but they are not metaphors of something not being eaten but remaining eternally uneaten.

What Does “Perish” Mean?
Matt 22:7 “‘But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed [apoœlesen] those murderers, and burned up their city.’”
Matt 26:52 “But Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish [apolountai] by the sword.’” [“Perish” here means death, not some continuing flaying with a sword throughout eternity.]
Luke 11:51 “‘from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished [apolomeénou] between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.’” [Was Zechariah still perishing in Jesus’ day, or had he completed the process implied in the word and perished, as the text says?]

Luke 13:3, 5 “‘I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish [apoleˆísthe].’” [If the process of perishing cannot be completed, then Jesus is wrong about this.]
John 3:16 “‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish [apoéleœtai] but have everlasting life.’” [If those who believe do not perish, then those who do not believe logically must perish. But if the wicked suffer everlasting torment in Hell, then they don’t perish, and they also receive everlasting life. Thus, both the righteous and the wicked receive everlasting life—the difference is only in the nature of that life. If this were so, then Jesus would be wrong here.]

2 Pet 3:6 “by which the world that then existed perished [apoœleto], being flooded with water.” [That world died, along with the people in it, except for Noah and family.]
2 Pet 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish [apoleésthai] but that all should come to repentance.” [Those do not repent perish. If they cannot die, they cannot perish.]
Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death [thanatos], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” [The wages are not eternal suffering, but death.]

What Does “Destroyed” Mean?
Luke 17:29 “‘but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [apoœlesen] them all.’”
Matt 10:29 “‘And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy [apoleésai] both soul and body in hell.’”
If they live on in eternal torment, they have not been destroyed.

What Is “Eternal Fire”?
Gen 19:24–29 “Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, . . . And Abraham . . . looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. . . . God destroyed the cities of the plain, . . . He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.”
Jude 7 “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example [deigma, a specimen], suffering the vengeance of eternal fire [puroìs aioœnˆíou].”
2 Pet 2:6 “and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, . . .”

How Long Does “Stubble” Burn?
Exod 15:7 [Against Egypt] “‘You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.’”
Obadiah 16, 18 [Against Edom] “‘And they shall be as though they had never been. . . . The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame; but the house of Esau shall be stubble; they shall kindle them and devour them, and no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,’ for the LORD has spoken.”
Isa 47:14 [Against Babylon] “‘Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them.’”
Nahum 1:9–10 [Day of the Lord] “Affliction will not rise up a second time. For while tangled like thorns, and while drunken like drunkards, they shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.”

What Are “Ashes”?
Mal 4:1, 3 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. . . . You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ Says the LORD of hosts.”

What Does “Slay” Mean?
Isa 65:15 [Day of the Lord] “‘For the Lord GOD will slay you.’”
Isa 66:15–16 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the LORD will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many.’”
Isa 66:24 “‘And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.’”
If they have been slain by the fire of God, they cannot still be alive. They are corpses.

What Does “End” Mean?
Zeph 1:18 [Day of the Lord] “‘Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy, for He will make speedy riddance [NIV, “a sudden end”] of all those who dwell in the land.’”
Matt 13:40 “‘As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.’”

What Does It Mean to “Cease to Be”?
Ezek. 28:18–19 “‘By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever.’” [Some think this is speaking covertly of Satan.]

Reprinted from an article by:
Ed Christian
Department of English
Kutztown University of Pennsylvania
Kutztown, PA 19530
610-683-4350 (office phone & fax)
610-562-0163 (home phone & message)
christia@kutztown.edu

Good article.

LA
 

Krsto

Well-known member
If you deny the Deity of Christ, you are. Hell theories are not salvific like the Deity and resurrection of Christ is.

As I've told you more than once, I don't deny "the Deity of Christ" I just deny your Catholic version of the Deity of Christ which took the best minds of Christendom over 300 years to develop in its most rudimentary form which required a succession of councils for a couple hundred more years to come to the finely nuanced theology of the godhead which you think is so indispensable and part and parcel for being a Christian and being accepted into God's heavenly kingdom.

I have also told you many times NOBODY in the early church thought of God as you do yet I can show you how EVERY Apostolic Father and every author of the New Testament thought as I do.
 

Wile E. Coyote

New member
As I've told you more than once, I don't deny "the Deity of Christ" I just deny your Catholic version of the Deity of Christ which took the best minds of Christendom over 300 years to develop in its most rudimentary form which required a succession of councils for a couple hundred more years to come to the finely nuanced theology of the godhead which you think is so indispensable and part and parcel for being a Christian and being accepted into God's heavenly kingdom.

I have also told you many times NOBODY in the early church thought of God as you do yet I can show you how EVERY Apostolic Father and every author of the New Testament thought as I do.
The true test of the correctness of your view of Christ's deity is in your applied theology. The Revelation is very clear that the whole redeemed creation worships the the Father AND the Lamb equally Revelation 5:13-14.

Therefore, anyone who did not worship the Lamb as they worshiped the Father during the 300 + years you speak of was NOT a member of God's redeemed creation. It's plain and simple! "Every creature in heaven and in earth and under the earth" gives the exact same doxology to the Lamb as they do the Father. This was true then, and it remains true both now and forever!

I assure you that you are NOT a member of God's redeemed creation if you do not give the Lamb what you give the Father. The Father will not tolerate you!
 

Wile E. Coyote

New member
As I've told you more than once, I don't deny "the Deity of Christ" I just deny your Catholic version of the Deity of Christ which took the best minds of Christendom over 300 years to develop in its most rudimentary form which required a succession of councils for a couple hundred more years to come to the finely nuanced theology of the godhead which you think is so indispensable and part and parcel for being a Christian and being accepted into God's heavenly kingdom.

I have also told you many times NOBODY in the early church thought of God as you do yet I can show you how EVERY Apostolic Father and every author of the New Testament thought as I do.

If you want so much to talk about history Krsto, then maybe you can explain this article giving special attention to the lines in bold.


Twenty-five years ago, rabbinical scholar Alan Segal produced what is still the major work on the idea of two powers in heaven in Jewish thought. Segal argued that the two powers idea was not deemed heretical in Jewish theology until the second century C.E. He carefully traced the roots of the teaching back into the Second Temple era (ca. 200 B.C.E.). Segal was able to establish that the idea’s antecedents were in the Hebrew Bible, specifically passages like Dan 7:9ff., Exo 23:20-23, and Exo 15:3. However, he was unable to discern any coherent religious framework from which these passages and others were conceptually derived. Persian dualism was unacceptable as an explanation since neither of the two powers in heaven were evil. Segal speculated that the divine warrior imagery of the broader ancient near east likely had some relationship.

In my dissertation (UW-Madison, 2004) I argued that Segal’s instincts were correct. My own work bridges the gap between his book and the Hebrew Bible understood in its Canaanite religious context. I suggest that the “original model” for the two powers idea was the role of the vice-regent of the divine council. The paradigm of a high sovereign God (El) who rules heaven and earth through the agency of a second, appointed god (Baal) became part of Israelite religion, albeit with some modification. For the orthodox Israelite, Yahweh was both sovereign and vice regent—occupying both “slots” as it were at the head of the divine council. The binitarian portrayal of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible was motivated by this belief. The ancient Israelite knew two Yahwehs—one invisible, a spirit, the other visible, often in human form. The two Yahwehs at times appear together in the text, at times being distinguished, at other times not.

Early Judaism understood this portrayal and its rationale. There was no sense of a violation of monotheism since either figure was indeed Yahweh. There was no second distinct god running the affairs of the cosmos. During the Second Temple period, Jewish theologians and writers speculated on an identity for the second Yahweh. Guesses ranged from divinized humans from the stories of the Hebrew Bible to exalted angels. These speculations were not considered unorthodox. That acceptance changed when certain Jews, the early Christians, connected Jesus with this orthodox Jewish idea. This explains why these Jews, the first converts to following Jesus the Christ, could simultaneously worship the God of Israel and Jesus, and yet refuse to acknowledge any other god. Jesus was the incarnate second Yahweh. In response, as Segal’s work demonstrated, Judaism pronounced the two powers teaching a heresy sometime in the second century A.D.


http://twopowersinheaven.com/

It wasn't until the second century A.D. that the two YHWHs idea was pronounced unorthodox.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
"Every creature in heaven and in earth and under the earth" gives the exact same doxology to the Lamb as they do the Father. This was true then, and it remains true both now and forever!

As do I, but no doubt for different reasons than you do.

I assure you that you are NOT a member of God's redeemed creation if you do not give the Lamb what you give the Father. The Father will not tolerate you!

I can assure you that God allows humble, simple, and enquiring souls to read the scriptures and come to different conclusions than you do. I know that might come as a shock to you but please do consider. Also, you might quote any number of scriptures to prove your theological nuances but do you realize there was no bible during this period? There were many scriptures that church leaders of that time quoted as authoritative, some of which were rejected by later councils, some of which made the cut and are in our bibles, but what exactly was to be considered a "biblical text" was not established until AFTER this time. The earliest church council, the so-called First Ecumenical Council at Nicea in 325 AD, for example, drew from many sources beyond our current bible and might not have had access to all that we have in our bibles. Revelation, for its part, was a contested book that was not considered inspired or authoritative by everybody at Nicea.

I can appreciate your zeal for certainty in these matters but the facts of history simply speak otherwise. My approach is to do the best I can, with God's help, to understand what has been delivered to us and invite others join in the discovery process. I believe God honors the teachable and resists the proud.
 
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