Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Aimiel

Well-known member
Eternal Conscious Torment Proof Scriptures

Eternal Conscious Torment Proof Scriptures

I haven't ignored any scripture you have posted.
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:43-48
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:19-31
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.[/I]

Revelation 14:10-11The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 

Timotheos

New member
Tim said:
You are now on ignore. If you ever get around to responding to the scripture I posted, I'll take you off ignore.

Tim said:
God told Adam that he would die and return to dust as a result of his sin, and Adam did. The wages of sin is death. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "the soul who sins shall die". Isaiah 66:16 speaks of the coming judgment and says "those slain by the lord will be many. Psalm 37:20 says that the wicked will perish. Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more. Joel speaks of the day of judgment and says in Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, and as destruction from the Almighty it comes. Malachi 4 says that the wicked will be like stubble in a field that is burned away and the wicked will be like ashes. John the Baptist said that the wicked will be like chaff that is completely burned up. Matthew 3:12. Jesus said that many will be destroyed, the road to destruction is wide. Matthew 7:13, Jesus said the false prophets are like trees that bear bad fruit, they will be cut down and burned. Matthew 7:19. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life. Therefore, who doesn't believe will perish and will not have eternal life. Paul said that death came through sin, Romans 5:12. Paul said that the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. He also said that those who do not obey the gospel will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Hebrews 10:27 says that the judgment fire consumes the adversaries. James says that "sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." James 1:15. Peter refers to the judgment as "swift destruction", 2 Peter 2:1. Peter says that Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6. Jude 7 concurs. John said "God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12.
And the book of Revelation specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I know Tim is not JW, does affirm the essential Deity of Christ, but he makes the same mistakes and false arguments that JWs do in relation to hell, etc. (non-essentials).

You and JWs are wrong about soul, hell, etc., but thankfully you are right about Christ, unlike them.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
I know Tim is not JW, does affirm the essential Deity of Christ, but he makes the same mistakes and false arguments that JWs do in relation to hell, etc. (non-essentials).

You and JWs are wrong about soul, hell, etc., but thankfully you are right about Christ, unlike them.

Do you like "Little Debbies," etc.?
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
I have not heard of this snack. Must be from U.S.?

yes

little-debbies.jpg
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
ECT

ECT

God is the Judge, a perfect Moral Governor. Even if I forgive the killer of my wife, the killer will still face God's justice.:guitar:

Its this 'twisted' sense of God's justice that we object to. You have offered little justification for this endless tortue(ceaseless punishment) of souls, beyond "I believe the literal rendition of a passage in Revelation, so I'm building a whole doctrine on it". Granted, even if we take the few passages ascribed to Jesus, about 'eternal punishment' or 'eternal damnation', (I see these are 'figurative' language)....from a 'soul-death' perspective it can still mean an 'eternal death' or 'final perishing' of those souls. They are not writhing in agony for all eternity in some lake of fire.

Let us also remind ourselves that justice is tempered with mercy and ever governed by divine goodness and wisdom, so that as long as souls are able to respond to Love, and repent...there is always HOPE, healing, salvation and restoration available to them. Justice would have souls be saved, restored, empowered, inspired to fulfill their purpose of existence and further unfold their true potential.

Stretching a particular point out further....ECT is contrary to the very mandate and motive of God's will, which is ever born from love...which ever supports and rescues souls from darkness to light, from bondage to liberty. This will of love is eternal/infinite...it does not change. Love could NEVER impose eternal torture to no end upon any sentient being. To assume such is dispicable.



pj
 

Timotheos

New member
I know Tim is not JW, does affirm the essential Deity of Christ, but he makes the same mistakes and false arguments that JWs do in relation to hell, etc. (non-essentials).

You and JWs are wrong about soul, hell, etc., but thankfully you are right about Christ, unlike them.

What the JWs believe or don't believe isn't the point.
The truth is found in the Bible. I don't make any false arguments. I am just accepting what the Bible says. I've given solid scripture support for my position. You can't set your tradition aside long enough to see if the scripture is true. Forget about the JWs. What does the Bible say the wages of sin is? Death or Eternal Conscious Torment?

I know that you just keep bringing the the JWs in a misguided attempt to link me with them, but I am not a JW, I never have been, and I have absolutely no association with them. I don't know how I could make it any more clear. I know that you are not Adolph Hitler, but you believe the same thing about Hell that Adolph Hitler believed. You and Hitler are wrong about Hell, but thankfully you haven't set up any extermination camps to eliminate anyone who disagrees with you.
 

Timotheos

New member
You ... are wrong about ... hell

What part of the Bible do you claim is wrong here?
Tim said:
God told Adam that he would die and return to dust as a result of his sin, and Adam did. The wages of sin is death. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "the soul who sins shall die". Isaiah 66:16 speaks of the coming judgment and says "those slain by the lord will be many. Psalm 37:20 says that the wicked will perish. Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more. Joel speaks of the day of judgment and says in Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, and as destruction from the Almighty it comes. Malachi 4 says that the wicked will be like stubble in a field that is burned away and the wicked will be like ashes. John the Baptist said that the wicked will be like chaff that is completely burned up. Matthew 3:12. Jesus said that many will be destroyed, the road to destruction is wide. Matthew 7:13, Jesus said the false prophets are like trees that bear bad fruit, they will be cut down and burned. Matthew 7:19. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life. Therefore, who doesn't believe will perish and will not have eternal life. Paul said that death came through sin, Romans 5:12. Paul said that the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. He also said that those who do not obey the gospel will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Hebrews 10:27 says that the judgment fire consumes the adversaries. James says that "sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." James 1:15. Peter refers to the judgment as "swift destruction", 2 Peter 2:1. Peter says that Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6. Jude 7 concurs. John said "God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12.
And the book of Revelation specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
The Lake of Fire, where Satan, his angels and all those whose names were not found in The Lamb's Book of Life will suffer un-ending torment in flames is not just another death, since we are told they will be tormented for ever and ever, it is un-ending death and suffering, just as Scripture describes.
 

Timotheos

New member
You are now on ignore. If you ever get around to responding to the scripture I posted, I'll take you off ignore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim, posting scripture which is ignored by Aimiel
God told Adam that he would die and return to dust as a result of his sin, and Adam did. The wages of sin is death. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "the soul who sins shall die". Isaiah 66:16 speaks of the coming judgment and says "those slain by the lord will be many. Psalm 37:20 says that the wicked will perish. Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more. Joel speaks of the day of judgment and says in Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, and as destruction from the Almighty it comes. Malachi 4 says that the wicked will be like stubble in a field that is burned away and the wicked will be like ashes. John the Baptist said that the wicked will be like chaff that is completely burned up. Matthew 3:12. Jesus said that many will be destroyed, the road to destruction is wide. Matthew 7:13, Jesus said the false prophets are like trees that bear bad fruit, they will be cut down and burned. Matthew 7:19. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life. Therefore, who doesn't believe will perish and will not have eternal life. Paul said that death came through sin, Romans 5:12. Paul said that the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. He also said that those who do not obey the gospel will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Hebrews 10:27 says that the judgment fire consumes the adversaries. James says that "sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." James 1:15. Peter refers to the judgment as "swift destruction", 2 Peter 2:1. Peter says that Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6. Jude 7 concurs. John said "God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12.
And the book of Revelation specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment.
 

Timotheos

New member
Originally Posted by Tim, posting scripture which is ignored by Aimiel
God told Adam that he would die and return to dust as a result of his sin, and Adam did. The wages of sin is death. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "the soul who sins shall die". Isaiah 66:16 speaks of the coming judgment and says "those slain by the lord will be many. Psalm 37:20 says that the wicked will perish. Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more. Joel speaks of the day of judgment and says in Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, and as destruction from the Almighty it comes. Malachi 4 says that the wicked will be like stubble in a field that is burned away and the wicked will be like ashes. John the Baptist said that the wicked will be like chaff that is completely burned up. Matthew 3:12. Jesus said that many will be destroyed, the road to destruction is wide. Matthew 7:13, Jesus said the false prophets are like trees that bear bad fruit, they will be cut down and burned. Matthew 7:19. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life. Therefore, who doesn't believe will perish and will not have eternal life. Paul said that death came through sin, Romans 5:12. Paul said that the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. He also said that those who do not obey the gospel will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Hebrews 10:27 says that the judgment fire consumes the adversaries. James says that "sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." James 1:15. Peter refers to the judgment as "swift destruction", 2 Peter 2:1. Peter says that Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6. Jude 7 concurs. John said "God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:11-12.
And the book of Revelation specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
I haven't ignored any scripture you have posted.
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:43-48
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:19-31
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Revelation 14:10-11The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
Last edited:

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

chasening eonion and life eonion are the destinations.

No person ever will enter into the Kingdom of God for eternity to ever be like Christ, by giving a glass of water to a disciple of Christ, or visiting them in prison, but their reward is preservation of their life when judgment falls if they do as the prophets message says.

Think Lots children and Rahab.

A great deal hinges on whether people accept or reject the Lords people before they obey the demands of the gospel.

I have changed my mind about Mat.ch 25 and this thread has helped me do that.

Entrance into the millennium and entrance into glorification with Christ are not the same things.

(Also the descending of the Holy City onto the fresh earth is not describing the eternal state of the earth either)

My conclusion then is that there is not ECT described in your verses.

LA
 
Top