Doormat
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Why do unbelievers have to suffer torment in hades before the judgement?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Why do unbelievers have to suffer torment in hades before the judgement?
Why should unbelievers be taken to heaven and be forced to be with one they wanted to be separated from?
Death means separation. God gives us what we choose.
God is also not a liar, Jesus talks about hell more than heaven. Its not like no one is warned.
This is based on all relevant verses, principles, chronology.
We know that the resurrection is yet future when Christ comes for His Church and then the unregenerate are raised 1000 years later to the GWT.
We know that those who die now are not having a dirt nap, but are in the immediate presence of God. Paul hints at a spiritual vs natural body, a glorified body vs temporal body, etc. in I Cor. 15. The cumulative evidence from a number of passages is how I formulate my understanding.
All truth is not in one proof text.
The torment is dying apart from God. The judgment awaits the end of time. Even today, the guilty are remanded until their sentencing and final imprisonment at a later date (subsequent to capture, trial, sentencing, incarceration).
Is a person who is in jail waiting for a trial, receiving 2 punishments?
Also:
Tell me where i said anything about torment and what you claim it is?
You started out asking me about one thing and then slipped in the word torment a couple posts of YOURS ago, where have i stated what i believe about that?
How do you expect me to answer something about myself that i never put forth that i believe?
You asked me if i believed either hell or the judgement and i said both, where did i say anything about torment . Post my words please, thanks.
Doormat
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What does that mean? :idunno:
Luke 16:23,24 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
You claim that's literal, right?
Doormat
New member
See my response to poster godrulz on that point.
Do you believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literal or a parable? I've been under the impression you believe it is literal.
The rich man was tormented in hades. Don't you believe that?
First define what you mean by torment. What are you claiming it is that i believe? Also yes, i believe that the bible is literal about the story of the rich man and lazarus, i do not believe it any parable.
I claim that it is consistent with sound doctrine. If my view is wrong, then Lk. 16 would not be written as it is. Jesus does not teach false things, symbolic or not. It presents conscious torment, period. If this was not truthful, Jesus would not pass it off as a spiritual picture. I could see you arguing that this is temporary vs eternal, but I cannot see you arguing that it represent unconscious annihilation.
Torment can take on many forms, not just physical (just like Jesus' sufferings were not primary physical, despite what Mel Gibson portrayed in Passion of Christ). If one is a Muslim expecting to be in paradise with virgins, or a Mormon expecting to die and be reunited with family, or a JW expecting soul sleep, no hell, future paradise earth, or to commit suicide to end the pain, or an atheist finding out there is a God and afterlife, etc., then it is sheer terror and torment to realize you were deceived/wrong and now face a Christless eternity of regret and loss.
Doormat
New member
Thats not an answer, again tell me what YOU believe torment is exactly since you keep telling ME what i believe, yet never mentioned.
As soon as you do that, we can continue. I never said non believers get 2 punishments either, YOU did, i said its like they are in jail - seperated from God like they wanted, waiting for their court date (great white throne judgment)
What is it you arent getting about what ive said?
That waiting place used to have 2 parts, hell/hades and abrahams bosom/paradise. Since believers have passed from death to life and have been declared innocent in Christ, there is no need for them to wait a judgment that will never come, since they have already been judged, so only the other part waits.
Doormat
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Doormat
New member
Luke 16:23,24 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
How is he punished twice, you keep saying that but you have not established anyone believes that or how you believe that.
Jesus said that those who refuse Him are condemned already. Do you believe that or not?
If you believe it, then where do you think they should be - those that have already been condemned?
So watch yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. (Deuteronomy 4:23-24).
He is tormented by the truth, all the times he refused God and desired to be separated from Him. The truth is what torments him. The coming evidence of his own condemnation at the judgment torments him, torments him so, that he wants to now warn others.
Thats the point.
Doormat
New member
I believe the story is parable. People dead in their sins are tormented by the truth. The word translated to torment means to suffer pain.
I asked you if people were presently in hell suffering punishment and you said yes, like the rich man in the story. I'm going by your words.
What you believe implies two punishments, one before the guilty has been judged. I'm trying to find out why unbelievers have to suffer torment in hades before the resurrection and judgement?
Doormat
New member
Is God literally or figuratively a consuming fire?
Do you believe the flame is literal or figurative in the story of the rich man and Lazarus? It appears you believe the flame is figurative, but you claim the story is literal.
Yes, it is torment to realize how wrong one is and how selfish and how prideful and how many people they have hurt having chosen their sin and if unremorseful still, the fact that they know what is coming and they have had to face the truth. Think no one torments themselves in jail knowing what is coming on them when they sit before the judge?
He is punished by his own thoughts, and punished by being removed from his physical life of sin that he loved more than God.
No it doesnt, thats just what you are trying to make it sound like instead of believing what the bible actually says.
The torment is their own knowledge of God and all the times they rejected him, and knowing whats coming when they come to trial because they have faced the truth (the consuming fire of God)
Doormat
New member
He doesn't literally want to cool his literal tongue with literal water then, right?
Rather, I am trying to make sense of what you have claimed: