Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Cross Reference]

Is it just coincidence that he calls Abraham "father" and has five brothers, and has the law and the prophets, wears purple and fine linen? Are you inclined to believe that Jesus mentioned all these things without meaning?

What makes you believe mentioning that has any relevance to the story/account which merely points up the inexcusable lifestyle of the rich man, except to cause "mischief" in the mind of one literally believing Jesus' story; to make it all to be mentaphorical speak?

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" Romans 1:18 (KJV)

 

[Cross Reference]

What would be the point of offering eternal life if we were already immortal? Why would Jesus say that without it we would perish if we would really continue on and on?

Simply because of what I ahve already stated to you, i.e., the soul that sins cannot be received into heaven.

[/QUOTJohn 3:16 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yes. The "World", in general. All God has created and purposed to be for Himself.

Why believe otherwise except you have an agenda to persuade it only means humans when the scriptures reveal the world will be restored to it being a "new heaven and earth"?

 

[Timotheos]

Simply because of what I ahve already stated to you, i.e., the soul that sins cannot be received into heaven.



Yes. The "World", in general. All God has created and purposed to be for Himself.

Why believe otherwise except you have an agenda to persuade it only means humans when the scriptures reveal the world will be restored to it being a "new heaven and earth"?

Why did you ignore the part of John 3:16 that says whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life? If nobody can perish and everyone has eternal life, then John 3:16 means the opposite of what it says.

 

[Cross Reference]

Didn't we already cover this, proving that kings (other than the kings of the Medes and Persians) CAN and HAVE cancelled their own decrees, including God?

Yes but, you but you mention the truth in the matter,, i.e., God never overruled Neb. He simply stepped into the situation to prevent the "decree" from harming "Myshack, yourshake and abungalow".

And second, the angels can be destroyed, specifically Satan. It is written.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" 2 Peter 2:4 (KJV)

Why not ask yourself: "Gee, I wonder how long some have been already there"?

And then:

". . . the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10 (KJV)

Followed by:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV)

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes and yes.

But not with God, with God intimacy is essential. Because if we are living by the spirit, then how can we not be intimate with God? If we're not intimate with God, then we don't know him and his spirit isn't in us.

Naturally, we have to be intimate with our husbands to have a child. Without the seed there is no birth, so it is in God, we must be intimate with God to receive his seed which is Christ in the heart. And once his word sinks into our hearts then it starts grow, being fed by the indwelling spirit. Then just like we suffer naturally in childbirth to bring forth a living child. So we suffer for God to bring forth Gods son, Christ Jesus, and by the spirit working within us, through us others may see him in our lives and hear his word and come to him.

Without intimacy, then there's no indwelling spirit, no Christ living in us, and no new birth. Without breath a natural child can't live, without the breath of life, which is the holy spirit, we can't live in God.

Intimacy with God is essential, without being intimate with God, we're still dead in our sins!

In a "legal" marriage, is relationship broken if intimacy is broken; is no longer evidenced?

The words of Paul to the Jailer: ". . . Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house," Acts 16:31 (KJV). Intimacy with God was never mentioned in that requirement.

Question: Where do you see yourself in 1John 1 and 2 inasmuch as John is NOT speaking of our salvation with regards to Acts 16:31 KJV but, something more . . . and if we don't embrace it, is our relationship with God dissolved?

". . if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:18 (KJV)

 

[Cross Reference]

Cross, did you try a dictionary here? The local Alliance church burnt down some years ago. They were not able to quench the flame. It was unquenchable.

It is not still burning.

Dictionary?

Now think about how bad it must be for those in a fiery hell when even God CANNOT quench the "Decreed flames"? The flames, once decreed, are as absolute in the foreverness to the souls of unbeliever/rebel cast there as His Holiness is to the righteous souls who enter heaven.. Man's choices determine his eternal destination. We are obligated to obey God for eternal union with Him or eternal separation from Him. For me, I don't want to ever be where He isn't.

The "Decreed" eternal soul man will always remain, eternal. It cannot be reversed to become anything less.

 

[Cross Reference]

Actually we can. Abraham is dead. We are told the dead know nothing. No love, hatred, envy, or knowledge that they are dead. Unless you would break the Holy Scripture for your purposes, the Abraham in that story is a figure in a parable story. Either admit you believe the whole Bible or confess that you will not.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Paul tells us that Abraham died in faith and received not the promises. Not just Abraham but all the saints he names.

If you read the parable and consider that Jesus typically refers to scripture with almost every breath, the characters are identified and the parable makes sense. What is Lazarus, and who is the unnamed rich man? Can you read Christ's words, use it like an open book test and take a guess?

Pretend you are a Jewish Pharisee even. What would those elements symbolize to you?

". . .if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:" Mark 9:47 (KJV)

Deal with it.

OMT: Where did the soul of Jesus go when He died?

Here's a clue:

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many". Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)

So much for the death of Abraham.

 

[Cross Reference]

Why did you ignore the part of John 3:16 that says whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life? If nobody can perish and everyone has eternal life, then John 3:16 means the opposite of what it says.

They are two different parts:

1. "He gave" without anyone asking.

2. The "whosoever believes" contained in HIS "giving" connotes a condition placed upon man if he is to receive the benefit of all of what God performed out of His eternal Love relationship with HIS WORLD.

"God loves HIS WORLD. Do you want to be in it?? The choice is yours". John 3:16 (CRV)

 

[Cross Reference]

Just to make certain we all are on the same page:

Websters Dictionary

Full Definition of everlasting

1
: *lasting or enduring through all time :* eternal

Full Definition of eternal

1
a: *having infinite duration :* everlasting <eternal damnation>


b : * of or relating to eternity


c : * characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? — Mark 10:17(Revised Standard Version)>


2
a: *continued without intermission:* perpetual <an eternal flame>


b : * seemingly endless <eternal delays>

 

[lifeisgood]

Just to make certain we all are on the same page:

Websters Dictionary

Full Definition of everlasting

1
: *lasting or enduring through all time :* eternal

Full Definition of eternal

1
a: *having infinite duration :* everlasting <eternal damnation>


b : * of or relating to eternity


c : * characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? — Mark 10:17(Revised Standard Version)>


2
a: *continued without intermission:* perpetual <an eternal flame>


b : * seemingly endless <eternal delays>

I am sure some will retort 'Well, you're using the wrong dictionary.' :chuckle:

 

[marke]

Actually we can. Abraham is dead. We are told the dead know nothing. No love, hatred, envy, or knowledge that they are dead. Unless you would break the Holy Scripture for your purposes, the Abraham in that story is a figure in a parable story. Either admit you believe the whole Bible or confess that you will not.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Paul tells us that Abraham died in faith and received not the promises. Not just Abraham but all the saints he names.

If you read the parable and consider that Jesus typically refers to scripture with almost every breath, the characters are identified and the parable makes sense. What is Lazarus, and who is the unnamed rich man? Can you read Christ's words, use it like an open book test and take a guess?

Pretend you are a Jewish Pharisee even. What would those elements symbolize to you?

If I was a Jew I would believe that Saul consulted with Samuel the night before he died and that Elisha raised the dead.

 

[Cross Reference]

I am sure some will retort 'Well, you're using the wrong dictionary.' :chuckle:

Why of course.

I would like for them to post theirs and well as the author's credentials of the commentaries they are feeding upon that have snared them. Think they have the courage?

 

[Timotheos]

They are two different parts:

1. "He gave" without anyone asking.

2. The "whosoever believes" contained in HIS "giving" connotes a condition placed upon man if he is to receive the benefit of all of what God performed out of His eternal Love relationship with HIS WORLD.

"God loves HIS WORLD. Do you want to be in it?? The choice is yours". John 3:16 (CRV)

This doesn't refute the part of John 3:16 where it says "Whosoever believes in him shall not PERISH, but will have ETERNAL LIFE."

Do you not understand this?

SOME will perish, and SOME will have eternal life. You have not proven John 3:16 wrong. You have not proven that EVERYONE will have eternal life, some in heaven and some in hell, and nobody will ever perish.

Why don't you give up trying to twist John 3:16 around backwards in order to somehow make it support the dogma you like best, eternal torture? Why not just accept John 3:16 as written and give up the false doctrine of eternal torment? Wouldn't it just be much easier to believe the Bible as written, instead of all of this mental gymnastics to twist the Bible to fit your dogma?

 

[chrysostom]

This doesn't refute the part of John 3:16 where it says "Whosoever believes in him shall not PERISH, but will have ETERNAL LIFE."

Do you not understand this?

I do -
keep up the good work

 

[Timotheos]

Why of course.

I would like for them to post theirs and well as the author's credentials of the commentaries they are feeding upon that have snared them. Think they have the courage?

Does your dictionary have any entries for the words "Death", "Destruction", "perish", or "life"?

Mine does! Do you want to discuss the meaning of those words as well, or are you going to tell me I'm using the wrong dictionary? (A popular trick of the torment crowd!)

 

[Cross Reference]

This doesn't refute the part of John 3:16 where it says "Whosoever believes in him shall not PERISH, but will have ETERNAL LIFE."

It does as far as I am concerned because I am NOT looking to refute anything in the scriptures. In not setting out to refute the scriptures makes, for me, the Bible understandable.

 

[Cross Reference]

Does your dictionary have any entries for the words "Death", "Destruction", "perish", or "life"?

Mine does! Do you want to discuss the meaning of those words as well, or are you going to tell me I'm using the wrong dictionary? (A popular trick of the torment crowd!)

No. Your argument is now between you and Webters dictionary. They are at least objective in the thinking, i.e., no axe to grind.

As for being of the "torment crowd" well, we will just to wait and see, won't we?

 

[Timotheos]

No. Your argument is now between you and Webters dictionary. They are at least objective in the thinking, i.e., no axe to grind.

As for being of the "torment crowd" well, we will just to wait and see, won't we?

You misunderstand me, I agree with both the Bible and Webster's Dictionary. Of course this means that some people will perish and some will have eternal life, and nobody will be tortured alive in hell forever as the torment crowd believes.

 

[Timotheos]

It does as far as I am concerned because I am NOT looking to refute anything in the scriptures. In not setting out to refute the scriptures makes, for me, the Bible understandable.

You still do not understand John 3:16. It says that some will perish and some will have eternal life. This proves the false doctrine of eternal torture in hell wrong.

 

[Timotheos]

I do -
keep up the good work

Mr Reference can't seem to understand John 3:16