Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Krsto
Well-known member
Those scriptures, rightly understood, don't.
The scriptures say "the wages of sin is death". Just how does this describe the wages of sin being eternal conscious torment? The wages of sin being death cannot be a lie.
The scriptures say "whoever believes in him shall not perish but will have eternal life". Jesus doesn't lie, he says whoever doesn't believe in him shall perish. Just how does this describe ECT?
The scriptures you've posted in defense of ECT do not actually say that the lost go to hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment. Scriptures don't lie, but I've noticed that people often use scriptures to support their unscriptural doctrines whether or not the scriptures actually support their doctrine or not.
Eternal torment is not biblical but eternal punishment is.
Yes, I agree. In Matthew 25:46 Jesus says that there are two groups. One group gets eternal life and the other doesn't get eternal life. One group gets eternal punishment and the other group doesn't. The eternal punishment cannot possibly be eternal torment, because a person would have to be conscious to experience eternal torment. They would need ot have eternal life too, and they don't. We know from Jesus' words in Matthew 7:13 that the eternal punishment is destruction.
He does not say eternal destruction, He says eternal punishment which you craftily change to eternal conscious torment.
God's Truth
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A person living a life of sin is living a life destroyed by evil behavior. Jesus says these living people are "dead". Do you think that they are literally dead physically as they live on this earth? The person is still living, but it is not a real life. Just as when a person is living in eternal punishment. Their life is destroyed even while they live.
God's Truth
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It is where their worm does not die.
A sleeping person is unconscious, how much more when dead.
A person thrown into a burning flame, and God is a consuming fire, can not live.
They perish.
Jesus did not lie as many demonologists do.
LA
The point about the worm not dying and the fire not quenched, is talking about that which consumes whatever is thrown into it.
Such simplicity is completely hidden to demonologists.
LA
God's Truth
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Are these people dead or alive?
Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
1 Timothy 5:6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
Revelation 3:1
"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
1 Timothy 5:6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
Revelation 3:1
"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
I don't change eternal punishment to eternal conscious torment. The false teachers who believe in eternal conscious torment craftily change eternal punishment into eternal conscious torment.
I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.
I'm not up to anything shifty, why can't we both be nice to one another?
God's Truth
New member
Is this squirrel dead or conscious?
A person living a life of sin is living a life destroyed by evil behavior. Jesus says these living people are "dead". Do you think that they are literally dead physically as they live on this earth? The person is still living, but it is not a real life. Just as when a person is living in eternal punishment. Their life is destroyed even while they live.
Krsto
Well-known member
Krsto
Well-known member
IOW, the rotting process goes on and on.
The second death is just that, dead.
So we have three deaths if we count the first as being spiritually dead.
None of the deaths make one alive forever, and Jesus returns to raise the dead who died believing in and looking to/for Jesus.
LA
So we have three deaths if we count the first as being spiritually dead.
None of the deaths make one alive forever, and Jesus returns to raise the dead who died believing in and looking to/for Jesus.
LA
God's Truth
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Their worm does not die, so that can only mean it goes on and on.
God's Truth
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Jesus returns with the SPIRITS of those who have died.
When Jesus returns, he give those spirits a new physical body, a spiritual one; those still alive when he comes, they will be changed to their new bodies, in a twinkling of an eye.
Krsto
Well-known member
But does it mean it goes on and on with the same body? Decomposition of a body is temporal, but decomposition in general goes on and on. Think of "their" worm as the worm made for decomposition in general. The one for dead bodies. He's simply talking about the grave, not an afterlife of suffering.
You're not going to let go of this Catholic doctrine, are you?