Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Zeke]

You reap what you sow sure has karmic ring to it.

 

[God's Truth]

There is no reason to assume that Paul's account of another man's vision or experience is somehow 'God's Truth'.

Paul lived through Jesus. Paul did not live through your false god’s teachings.

He's merely calling to mind the experience of another, plus has shared his own experiences which are 'personal experiences' and his own 'personal revelations'. He also claims that some of his views are his own 'opinions'. There is no reason to assume all that Paul wrote is somehow 'God's Truth', since they were only personal letters anyways written to various churches, which only later where compiled into the NT and given the status of being 'scripture'.

You are wrong. Paul wrote scripture.
2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

This passage proves only the 'account' of the event by another, and there is more proof actually for OBE's and NDE's in our current records of such, being more detailed and definitive.
NDE's and the Afterlife

Paul speaking of a man outside his body is proof of the life of our spirits outside the body, whether the body is dead or alive.

Correct according to the spiritualist view.

What I said is correct according to the believers in Christ, to Christians.

You apparently do not understand the law of karma which is the law of compensation (what a man sows, that also he reaps)....such is a universal principle. All thoughts, words, actions have consequences,...such is the law of cause/effect. This rule applies here and in the after-life....as long as thoughts, words and actions have a conditional effect.

I understand what Karma means and it is false.

No, you live through a very narrow close minded conception of 'Jesus' and your own prefigured theology or interpretation of things, proven by your responses here and your lack of effort to learn more from what has been provided for your enlightenment.

You could not be further from the Truth.

 

[freelight]

I turned off visitor messages when I was getting hateful messages on my profile page. I do not have private messages turned off.

Oh ok. But there is still no 'Contact info.' tab existing on your profile page, so one can only click on your name in your posts and find(choose) that option from your posts. For some reason, 'contact info.' tab is not available.

I enjoy the visitor messages feature, but understand if some have abused that space with hate-mail. - its amazing how many engage in this behavior under the guise of being a so called 'christian'. - what really matters is our character, and not necessarily what religious denomination or 'belief-system' we adopt, for each tree will bear according to its fruit, and be judged thereby,...and hence we come back to the law of compensation (your aversion to the term 'karma' and a misconception of it, does not annul this law from existing).



pj

 

[God's Truth]

Oh ok. But there is still no 'Contact info.' tab existing on your profile page, so one can only click on your name in your posts and find(choose) that option from your posts. For some reason, 'contact info.' tab is not available.

I checked my edit options and see where it says messages from others are enabled.

I enjoy the visitor messages feature, but understand if some have abused that space with hate-mail. - its amazing how many engage in this behavior under the guise of being a so called 'christian'. - what really matters is our character, and not necessarily what religious denomination or 'belief-system' we adopt, for each tree will bear according to its fruit, and be judged thereby,...and hence we come back to the law of compensation (your aversion to the term 'karma' and a misconception of it, does not annul this law from existing).

God’s word nullifies all doctrines that are not from Him.

 

[Aimiel]

You could not be further from the Truth.

No truer words have ever been spoken about Freelight (whom is actually not free and not even in The Light).

 

[freelight]

There is always more to learn......

There is always more to learn......

Paul lived through Jesus. Paul did not live through your false god’s teachings.

Paul had his own gospel, which was different than the original apostles of Jesus, which caused much of his own suffering and conflict with them. I suggest a better study of the issues involved here. (see all research articles and our other threads on Paul linked therein. Deeper investigation on Paul forces one to reconsider their 'image' of him).

You are wrong. Paul wrote scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

2 Peter is considered spurious(pseudographical), so it cannot be proved Peter wrote this or even approved of Paul's letters. Records elsewhere show Peter and Paul quite adversarial to one another.

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

The above does not prove Paul's writing to be 'scripture', as Paul is just referring to the 'prophetic writings' in general (the Torah and the prophets and other prophetic writings). Remember what we have from Paul are 'letters' to various churches,...there is no indication these were to be 'codified' as 'scripture', which later christian writings conveniently assumed as they 'put together' their 'canon'.

Paul speaking of a man outside his body is proof of the life of our spirits outside the body, whether the body is dead or alive.

Such was an account that does confirm the data we have from other spiritualist sources, NDE/OBE accounts and spirit-messages. As a spiritualist I was not contesting such, but just saying we have a greater collection of data from sources from the past few centuries of spirit-communications and psychical research to prove such. The Bible does not have all the spiritual info. or knowledge in the world, it being limited to its own time, writers aptitude and cultural-context,...and even still we consider that 'revelation' is progressive.

What I said is correct according to the believers in Christ, to Christians.

Again, I just noted that its common knowledge that all spiritualists believe in the continuation of individuality beyond the physical body, and most traditional christians do too as well, since they adopted a more liberal notion of the soul from Greek, pagan and gnostic intuitions of the concept of the immortality of the soul.

I understand what Karma means and it is false.

I'm afraid the evidence shows so far you dont. Your 'knowledge' is distorted by false concepts and ignorance of the matter, even though the principle of 'karma' (action and its corresponding consequences) is a law evident in nature, and indicated in scripture. The term 'karma' is just a more convenient eastern term applied here, indicating the 'law of compensation', which is a just appropriation,....it being meted out 'measure for measure'. Each soul is responsible for its own sins, and suffers for his own sins, and is therefore reformed or rehabilated by his own repentance or rectification of such actions. This is a universal law, applicable in all realms where actions have consequences.

You could not be further from the Truth.

The truth of a matter or principle is evident to those who are able to recognize it.




pj

 

[God's Truth]

I don't really want to argue about this anymore. It seems to be going nowhere.

Keep your rude opinions to yourself. The discussion is going somewhere for me.

I know that the dead exist because I have seen a dead person and he existed. He was not alive, but he existed. He was dead. I don't know how else to say this. He was dead, and not alive. He was not conscious. He was not in pain, he was not traveling to another dimension beyond space and time where the dead live in the twilight zone. He was dead, but he existed, as a dead person, not as a living person.

You have seen a dead person exist. Have you ever been outside your body in the spirit? I guess if it has not happened to you then it is not real.

That is not a biblical statement, and has no support from the Bible.

That is a false statement.

That is merely your opinion. People who are dead physically really are dead. They are not alive somewhere else. They will be alive again when Jesus Christ returns to resurrect the dead. This is what the Bible says, and this is what I believe.

The Bible does not say that we will die and not live somewhere else. The Bible says I have crossed over from death to life, and that those who eat the flesh of Jesus we will not die.
John 6:48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.

I don't want to argue with you anymore. If you can't accept this, believe whatever you want to believe, and may God bless you.

God has blessed me, and continues to bless me.

"Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." 2 Timothy 2:23-24 NIV

I'm going to try to avoid TOL for a while.
I hope you have a pleasant day.

The Word of God is not foolish.

 

[God's Truth]

No truer words have ever been spoken about Freelight (whom is actually not free and not even in The Light).

Right on.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul had his own gospel, which was different than the original apostles of Jesus, which caused much of his own suffering and conflict with them. I suggest a better study of the issues involved here. (see all research articles and our other threads on Paul linked therein. Deeper investigation on Paul forces one to reconsider their 'image' of him).

Paul did not have a different gospel. Paul called it his gospel because he was an apostle. You misunderstand much.

2 Peter is considered spurious(pseudographical), so it cannot be proved Peter wrote this or even approved of Paul's letters. Records elsewhere show Peter and Paul quite adversarial to one another.

The Holy Bible is true. The scriptures say it was Peter.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

The above does not prove Paul's writing to be 'scripture', as Paul is just referring to the 'prophetic writings' in general (the Torah and the prophets and other prophetic writings). Remember what we have from Paul are 'letters' to various churches,...there is no indication these were to be 'codified' as 'scripture', which later christian writings conveniently assumed as they 'put together' their 'canon'.

I do not doubt the scriptures.

Such was an account that does confirm the data we have from other spiritualist sources, NDE/OBE accounts and spirit-messages. As a spiritualist I was not contesting such, but just saying we have a greater collection of data from sources from the past few centuries of spirit-communications and psychical research to prove such. The Bible does not have all the spiritual info. or knowledge in the world, it being limited to its own time, writers aptitude and cultural-context,...and even still we consider that 'revelation' is progressive.

I do not consider information from religions of demons.

I'm afraid the evidence shows so far you dont. Your 'knowledge' is distorted by false concepts and ignorance of the matter, even though the principle of 'karma' (action and its corresponding consequences) is a law evident in nature, and indicated in scripture. The term 'karma' is just a more convenient eastern term applied here, indicating the 'law of compensation', which is a just appropriation,....it being meted out 'measure for measure'. Each soul is responsible for its own sins, and suffers for his own sins, and is therefore reformed or rehabilated by his own repentance or rectification of such actions. This is a universal law, applicable in all realms where actions have consequences.

Your personal opinion and false statement that I do not understand karma means nothing to me.
Karma is an evil doctrine. The teachings of Karma teach that a disabled person deserves this as punishment for a past life, and that all bad things that happen to a person is punishment for something they did.
It is you who is either lying, or do not know what you claim to believe in.

The truth of a matter or principle is evident to those who are able to recognize it.

You do not recognize the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

You reap what you sow sure has karmic ring to it.

Karma is the doctrine of demons.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?..........

The way you phrase that, Eternal Conscious Torment, is meant to put a scare into people and ignore the facts. Its a form of hyperbole at its worst.


QUOTE:

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show.

SOURCE LINK


To continue and read the quotes of the first Christians, CLICK HERE

 

[Aimiel]

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[Zeke]

Karma is the doctrine of demons.

Because your pastor or priest said it was? or you had some spirit tell you? or you read it in a book you think is Gods word even when it is repulsive to common sense?

The principle of karma matches the scriptures law of reaping and sowing, and is neither good or evil, like any thing it is the intent behind it that makes it negative or positive.

The demonic element in this thread is displayed for all to see who haven't been chained to a book that is mythology and allegorical, with questionable translations swayed by culture and superstitions.

You literally take scripture that isn't meant to be, and until you break that spell of fear implants your going to be a tool for this type of irrational thinking about the Creator and what a real Christian is supposed to be, which is planting the good seeds for "all humanity".

Of coarse that kind of talk is repulsive to demons no doubt.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Karma is the doctrine of demons.

Because your pastor or priest said it was?...............

Because as Christians we recognize that "Karma" is a teaching of another religion, and since we are Christians it follows that we believe in Christianity and therefore believe that other religions are false.

Common sense 101

.

 

[Aimiel]

Although the principle of Karma is from Buddhism, it isn't demonic, per se, but is rooted in a demonic religion. Jesus said that we reap what we sow (the Law of Reciprocity), but He also said that God would save us from our sins, due to His Blood. He not only doesn't give us the punishment we deserve (Karma) but gives us what we DON'T deserve (grace). We, as Christians, are under His Grace, but we still have consequences to our actions. God looks upon the thoughts and intents of the heart, while men look at the physical and what they hear and think. God looks to our roots. He tends to them and deals with us as His Children, using discipline where He deems necessary. If you're content and not having any difficulties in your life, most likely you're very far from God. He chastens those whom He loves. I always say: new level... new devil. The closer you get to God the more Satan tries to pull the rug out from under you.

 

[Zeke]

Because as Christians we recognize that "Karma" is a teaching of another religion, and since we are Christians it follows that we believe in Christianity and therefore believe that other religions are false.

Common sense 101

.

That is weird coming from a Catholic, the symbols alone in your churches, and the vatican contradict that assertion.

 

[Timotheos]

Because as Christians we recognize that "Karma" is a teaching of another religion, and since we are Christians it follows that we believe in Christianity and therefore believe that other religions are false.

Common sense 101

.

And we as Christians understand that "gravity" is a teaching of humanistic teachers and it follows that we believe in Christianity and therefore we believe that "gravity" is false.

There may or may not be such as thing as "Karma", but it's truth or falsehood is not determined by who teaches it.

Logic 101

 

[Zeke]

Although the principle of Karma is from Buddhism, it isn't demonic, per se, but is rooted in a demonic religion. Jesus said that we reap what we sow (the Law of Reciprocity), but He also said that God would save us from our sins, due to His Blood. He not only doesn't give us the punishment we deserve (Karma) but gives us what we DON'T deserve (grace). We, as Christians, are under His Grace, but we still have consequences to our actions. God looks upon the thoughts and intents of the heart, while men look at the physical and what they hear and think. God looks to our roots. He tends to them and deals with us as His Children, using discipline where He deems necessary. If you're content and not having any difficulties in your life, most likely you're very far from God. He chastens those whom He loves. I always say: new level... new devil. The closer you get to God the more Satan tries to pull the rug out from under you.

Which is a sign you haven't entered his rest, and still needing to learn that the fear you teach will never gain you entry.

 

[Timotheos]

The way you phrase that, Eternal Conscious Torment, is meant to put a scare into people and ignore the facts. Its a form of hyperbole at its worst.

What do you want me to call the doctrine that the unsaved are alive and on fire for all eternity?

 

[Aimiel]

What do you want me to call the doctrine that the unsaved are alive and on fire for all eternity?

God's justice.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.