Is Jesus God?

Lon

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I don't need your trying to put words in my mouth Lon.
All your own words, Robert. I've no words but the ones you've given and they weren't nice at all.

Your twisting my words like you twist scripture.
First, "You're." Second, you are (you're) trying to say my eternal destiny is in danger in the previous post. For what? Two seconds worth of conversation???? :doh: Do you THINK you are spiritual for this kind of junk???? Really? :noway:

I don't need your friendship any more than I need snakes in my grass.
So??? :idunno: I'm sure I live nowhere near you. Where in the world did this come from? The wounds of a friend are faithful, but we are just two guys on the internet. I 'can' show myself friendly, at least. Proverbs 18:24


Your unable to see the difference between God and his CREATIONS because you would rather follow the mass than Christ.
Uhm, no. I know the difference between "your" and "you're" can read the languages, have a MUCH better grasp of grammatical contexts, etc. etc. Try again. You want so badly to be a teacher with NO (nadda) training or education whatsover. Every cult does but there is NO special pleading. You either have the credentials and ability or you do not. There is NO WAY God can just give you this osmosis with your head on a pillow. You either have the where-with-all or you don't. You simply don't. God was NOT meaning this when He said that He uses the simple things to confound the wise. He was not meaning you don't need an education when He said that the unspiritual could not understand the spiritual. Not all unspiritual are stupid. Not all in Christ are all that brilliant. God gave SOME to be teachers. You aren't that guy. Find out what He actually has gifted you for, and do that. This ain't it. You are winning no friends nor Unitarians' best spokesman. Look at every Unitarian on TOL, all contentious and mean-spirited, as you are becoming here as well. Why? Because I'm telling you the truth? :think: This is the 'Keypurr' show. I'm seeing less and less of Christ in it. :( This thread is supposed to be about Him. This post of yours is dismissive, the previous of yours was soul-condemning as if you have that power or authority. Its a sad week with you, Robert.

What I DO know is that John 1:1 says 'with' and 'was.' There is always something we better pay attention to, when we are speculating. There is no way we better miss 'both' here.

You have no clue what the express image is.
You have NO ABILITY to teach with graciousness and compassion so SHOULD NOT BE TRYING! Maybe you should take your own advice and leave TOL before you burn all the bridges down. This? This is just a banter contest. I've asked several times now, why? Why do you need to knock me and everyone else on TOL around? What good will it do? Is this blessing you? It surely isn't me. I'm trying to teach you language and tell you that you've bitten off WAY more than you can possibly chew. I do know the scriptures. I know them better than you. There is no question about that. Does it matter? ONLY if you listen. You need to learn where you agree for one. Second, you need NOTHING BUT scripture for your response. My words/ your words? Pointless. Only scripture counts here. I ask you again: Of the churches Christ said were His, some have their candles removed BUT the four that exist are NOT Unitarian. You and every JW or other cult on the planet has to ask "Why, if we are so right?" If you don't, you get to stay in ignorance. Does your soul stand on the line? In somuch as you are prideful and willful and cannot be remade by God to be and know what you are supposed to know. Hebrews 12 is my warning to you: You can be disciplined if you are His and forgotten if you are not. I don't have to nor is there any fruit in telling you you are in danger of hell. That again is between you and the Lord God. For me, it'd be a huge sin to come between your ONE MEDIATOR between you and God. You've only One and I'm not Him, but you flout your judgments on other men like you were that mediator and eveybody needs to listen to you. I've no idea why you are mad, angry, and lashing out with me right now, but I see NO good news in any of it. You go ahead and do your supposedly 'righteous' indignation and damnation of my soul. In the end, I'll stand silently before my Maker and you won't be anywhere near me and the Mediator nor likely even in the same room. Why you want to do it now, I'll never know. It is flat-out weird. I've one Mediator - the Lord Jesus Christ. You are not Him.

You certainly have no love or friendship expressed here for me or another, either. I've one accuser as well. He doesn't need you. Don't work for him any more, Robert. Its a terrible job. Leave this thread and post alone after this. It doesn't need your further condemnation. You are accomplishing nothing. Certainly nothing good. Why do it? How sour and upset can you possibly be in a thread that is discussing whether the Lord Jesus Christ is God or not? ▲This▲angry? :confused:

"Exact image" I've discussed with you in the past with ideas like 'clone, the same being' etc. We talked about Dolly the sheep. There was only one Dolly the sheep. Now there are two but yet only Dolly and nothing else. We have no language adequate for something like this. Is it one sheep or two? --> "Yes" is the right answer.

Good luck to you.
I'm not a 'luck' kind of guy. I'm not even sure if you meant it with these kinds of loaded statements either. Why even say this? ???
 
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followHim

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What do you think? Present Scripture for your answer whether negative or positive

Jesus and the Father are one. If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 14
 
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Pierac

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Was ▲THIS▲ supposed to be your spiritual man writing this? Was ▲THIS▲ supposed to be from a caring man concerned with souls???

I still can't read you, Paul. Nothing has changed. I have not treated him poorly and he is against orthodox Christianity so 'cult' by definition. You took that with offense? I am orthodox. How could cult be applied? How could that be a log??? Do you return evil for evil (real or imagined)? Romans 12:17 1 Peter 3:9

Where is 'love to me?'

Because I'm telling you... how you fail to love... Really calling keypurr a cult is going to ...somehow open his mind??? NO! You are blind to the truth! He sees what God wants him to see... just like you and me!

Don't be a A+ hole in all this! :think:

Paul
 
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JudgeRightly

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A saved cultist who knows God had a son and raised him from the dead.
I would rather give Keypurr the benefit of the doubt and assume he is NOT saved, so that he does not, because I assumed he was, end up in Hell.
 

Pierac

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What do you think? Present Scripture for your answer whether negative or positive

So, let's go back to the beginning! post number one... Is Jesus GOD? as Bright Raven ask?

Before answering... We must first seek what is GOD?

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."

So what about Jesus the Christ?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Who gave him???

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

New Name... given a new name by Whom? :readthis:

Rev 3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, "( Col 1:3 )

Thus the teachings of men... making you shocked of what your just read! ... as if it was some how it's news!

:think:

Read Rev chapter 5.... One God on the throne... And one lamb whom is worthy to take the book out of the one God's hand! :readthis:

Do you see???

:sherlock::poly:
Paul
 

6days

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So, let's go back to the beginning! post number one... Is Jesus GOD? as Bright Raven ask?

Before answering... We must first seek what is GOD?

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."

So what about Jesus the Christ?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Who gave him???

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

New Name... given a new name by Whom? :readthis:

Rev 3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, "( Col 1:3 )

Thus the teachings of men... making you shocked of what your just read! ... as if it was some how it's news!

:think:

Read Rev chapter 5.... One God on the throne... And one lamb whom is worthy to take the book out of the one God's hand! :readthis:

Do you see???

:sherlock::poly:
Paul
The verses you use are great..... Your interpretation, not so much. Jesus had pre-existence... He is Holy... He is omnipotent, all-powerful... Is omnipresent... Jesus forgives sin... He is our Creator... He is our judge... He is the wonderful counsellor, the Prince of Peace, the everlasting father.....
AND, God the Father called God the son "God"(Heb.1:8)... So it is likely a good idea for us to do likewise.
 

JudgeRightly

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First of all, knock it off with the weird colors, it makes it hard for me to read.

Second, what are you even talking about? Money changers? What do they have to do with whether Keypurr is a cultist or not?

Jesus would disagree whom... walked in to the temple and pulled out his whip to spanked those money exchangers! Do you really think He (jesus) was invited back by the likes of you?

You speak as a child! Not knowing the love of GOD!

:think:
Paul

:blabla:

Knock it off with the high-and-mighty act.
 

JudgeRightly

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Because I'm telling you... how you fail to love... Really calling keypurr a cult is going to ...somehow open his mind???

Would it be better to encourage a drug addict to continue doing drugs?

Or would it be better to get the drug addict to stop doing drugs?

Keypurr has become addicted to denying the deity of Christ, and you seem to have as well.

You should stop taking the drug called "Jesus is not God" so that you don't harm yourself anymore.
 

JudgeRightly

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Jesus would disagree whom... walked in to the temple and pulled out his whip to spanked those money exchangers! Do you really think He (jesus) was invited back by the likes of you?

You speak as a child! Not knowing the love of GOD!

:think:
Paul

As I said above...

I would rather give Keypurr the benefit of the doubt and assume he is NOT saved, so that he does not, because I assumed he was, end up in Hell.
 

Pierac

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The verses you use are great..... Your interpretation, not so much. Jesus had pre-existence... He is Holy... He is omnipotent, all-powerful... Is omnipresent... Jesus forgives sin... He is our Creator... He is our judge... He is the wonderful counsellor, the Prince of Peace, the everlasting father.....
AND, God the Father called God the son "God"(Heb.1:8)... So it is likely a good idea for us to do likewise.

I gave no interpretation? You only saw what you were told to believe!

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.

Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth.
He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Remember Jesus has a God… "Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word(ῥῆμα/ rhēma)of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Please note that the word used here is not Logos as it is used in John 1 but rhēma.

Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not “the heavens and the earth” as per Genesis 1:1, but rather “all things in the heavens and on the earth ." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after “the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him, " it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).

All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ’s exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ’s] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus’ obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).

It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that it he did not have it already. Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.

If Jesus was God in the flesh then it is impossible to be a man. He would have been something entirely else. Not a man. This is why Jesus has to learn wisdom, Luke 2:40, Luke 2:52. God is all knowing. He does not need to learn anything. Paul tells us Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and something else.

Heb 5:6 "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." 5 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

It is an insult to say that God learned obedience! Jesus learned obedience because he was a man, a man like you and me not a hybrid. Most fail to understand the concept of Agency. When you kiss the Agent of the one sent, you are actually kissing the one whom the Agent represents. When you worship Jesus you are actually worshiping the One who sent Him. Thus Jesus comments

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

There is no God in the flesh hybrid (Theos aner) in these verses.

If Jesus is already God in the flesh then He can not have a God because it would be two Gods not one. Yet, scripture clearly tell us he does have a God, both before and after His resurrection. Philippians 4:20; Ephesians 4:6; John 20:17; Matthew 27:46; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 3:2.

One issue is God can not die. So if Jesus was God then he would have had to pretend to die and thus there would not be any forgiveness of sin because he really didn't die.

Let's see who can forgive sins.

Mat 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Mat 9:6 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

Mar 2:7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Jesus never forgave sins before He was anointed with God's Spirit. And now the Apostles have the ability to forgive sins, once again only after Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit. The Apostles are now Agents of Jesus the Christ and "have authority on earth to forgive sins". How? Because as the Father has sent Me, I also send you

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word
(ῥῆμα/ rhēma) of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Again please note that the word used here is not Logos.

Eph 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages
has been hidden in God who created all things;

Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and
power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were
created."

Keep reading Rev 4:11 thru chap 5 and you will see the one lamb whom is worthy to approach our Lord and our God whom created all things! Yet...the lamb created nothing!

Stop trying to read scripture into your teachings of men... read scripture out of GOD as intended! :readthis:

:think:
Paul
 
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Pierac

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As I said above...I would rather give Keypurr the benefit of the doubt and assume he is NOT saved, so that he does not, because I assumed he was, end up in Hell.

What do you know of hell? You speak as a child! Hell is the grave... nothing more or less!!! Where all of man kind is going upon death! The Kingdom of God is different! The Kingdom is about which resurrection your in!!! :readthis:

:think:
Paul
 
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JudgeRightly

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What do you know of hell?

Quite a lot.

More than you, it seems.

You speak as a child!

Stop with the high and mighty act, or you'll be getting an infraction for being unnecessarily disruptive.

Hell is the grave... nothing more or less!!! Where all of man kind is going upon death! The Kingdom of God is different! The Kingdom is about which resurrection your in!!! :readthis:

:think:
Paul

Incorrect.
 

6days

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pierac said:
Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20).
Thanks for reply Pierac but I object to your style of using different versions to try slant things a certain way. I will respond but let's both use just one translation. Go ahead and pick any major modern translation where we can check qualifications on the team of translators.
Pierac said:
This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted ....
Wait..... You said "I gave no interpretation..."
 

JudgeRightly

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Thanks for reply Pierac but I object to your style of using different versions to try slant things a certain way. I will respond but let's both use just one translation. Go ahead and pick any major modern translation where we can check qualifications on the team of translators.

Wait..... You said "I gave no interpretation..."

:think:

I gave no interpretation? You only saw what you were told to believe!

He thinks you accused him of not giving his interpretation of the passages.

But that's not what you challenged him on.

Here's what you actually said:

The verses you use are great..... Your interpretation, not so much.

Calling, you guessed it, "his interpretation" not so great.

In other words, Pierac isn't really paying attention to what you're saying. He's just reacting to that which He thinks/wishes you had said.
 

Lon

Active member
Because I'm telling you... how you fail to love... Really calling keypurr a cult is going to ...somehow open his mind??? NO! You are blind to the truth! He sees what God wants him to see... just like you and me!

Don't be a A+ hole in all this! :think:

Paul
See, this is ban-worthy. I'm not sure what passes as appropriate in your neck of the woods. You've always a basal mouth over these matters.

"Cult" simply means 'off shoot.' I realize it also has some poor connotations, but all Unitarians and Arians by organization, or individual carry the 'cult' label. I'm failing to see your complaint as reasonable. Have you never heard, honestly, that JW's, for example, are a cult? Mormons?

When I use it, I mean the 'small following' by the label. I mean 'not orthodox' as well. "If" such is offensive, the remedy must necessarily be stop being unorthodox and stop being in the minority, no?

Ephesians 4:29;5:4
 

JudgeRightly

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See, this is ban-worthy. I'm not sure what passes as appropriate in your neck of the woods. You've always a basal mouth over these matters.

He already received an infraction for it.

"Cult" simply means 'off shoot.' I realize it also has some poor connotations, but all Unitarians and Arians by organization, or individual carry the 'cult' label. I'm failing to see your complaint as reasonable. Have you never heard, honestly, that JW's, for example, are a cult? Mormons?

When I use it, I mean the 'small following' by the label. I mean 'not orthodox' as well. "If" such is offensive, the remedy must necessarily be stop being unorthodox and stop being in the minority, no?

Ephesians 4:29;5:4

http://kgov.com/cults
 
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