Is Jesus Christ the way to the Father to Israel only?

[oatmeal]

Based on the responses to the thread I started that was closed by Sherman, there are folk here who believe that everything Jesus said in the gospels pertain to lost sheep of the house of Israel only.

They use Matthew 15:24 as their reason to do so.

That puts them into some very awkward situations.

If indeed Jesus' words are only to Israel and therefore do not pertain to Christianity whatsoever then I would like to know the following about Jesus statements.

a. Who is the way to the Father for Christians? John 14:6

b. Who is Christianity to love with all our heart and all our souls and all our minds if not God? Matthew 22:37-38

c. If indeed all that Jesus spoke refers only to those of Matthew 15:24, then we must conclude that the world referred to in John 3:16 must pertain to Israel only not to Gentiles at all.



The implications of their theology is absurd for then, Gentiles do not have access to the Father, Christians need not fully love God, Christians do not have a way to the Father or Jesus is not the Christians way to the Father.

If their hypothesis is true then anything that Paul wrote that is based on the accomplishments of Jesus Christ as given in the gospels has to be false doctrine for Christians

Only when we rightly divide the word of truth will we have the true word.

 

[Right Divider]

Based on the responses to the thread I started that was closed by Sherman, there are folk here who believe that everything Jesus said in the gospels pertain to lost sheep of the house of Israel only.

Please identify those that you think say that EVERYTHING that Jesus said in the gospels pertain to lost sheep of the house of Israel only.

That is clearly false, as SOME of what Jesus said has a universal application, but MUCH was specifically related to His people, Israel.

They use Matthew 15:24 as their reason to do so.

That is certainly a great example of His primary focus on His people.

That puts them into some very awkward situations.

Only in your confused mind.

If indeed Jesus' words are only to Israel and therefore do not pertain to Christianity whatsoever then I would like to know the following about Jesus statements.

a. Who is the way to the Father for Christians? John 14:6

b. Who is Christianity to love with all our heart and all our souls and all our minds if not God? Matthew 22:37-38

c. If indeed all that Jesus spoke refers only to those of Matthew 15:24, then we must conclude that the world referred to in John 3:16 must pertain to Israel only not to Gentiles at all.

Perhaps you are blissfully unaware that believing gentiles were always welcome to join with Israel and their God.

The implications of their theology is absurd for then, Gentiles do not have access to the Father, Christians need not fully love God, Christians do not have a way to the Father or Jesus is not the Christians way to the Father.

If their hypothesis is true then anything that Paul wrote that is based on the accomplishments of Jesus Christ as given in the gospels has to be false doctrine for Christians

Only when we rightly divide the word of truth will we have the true word.

We have no problem at all, since it is simply your false understanding of just about everything that causes your immense confusion.

 

[oatmeal]

Here is one post from the previous thread

Okay, here it is point blank.

JESUS WAS NOT SPEAKING TO OR ABOUT YOU. OR ME. OR ANYONE ELSE ALIVE TODAY.

THE WORDS OF JOHN DO NOT APPLY TO YOU. THEY WERE FOR REPENTANT ISRAELITES.

JOHN WAS NOT YOUR CHRIST-CHOSEN APOSTLE. PAUL WAS.

CHRIST SPOKE AGAIN THROUGH PAUL, AND THROUGH PAUL SPEAKS TO YOU.

PAUL IS THE ONE YOU SHOULD PREEMINENTLY HEED.

Now having heard all that before, here comes the part where you reject every word of it, proving how pointless this is.

 

[oatmeal]

Here is another post from the thread

Oats, are you a Jew? I didn't know that.


The Bible will never make sense to you until you can figure out what was written to the Jews...

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And what was written to the rest of us.

Eph. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


TO THE JEW FIRST. Keep that in mind, and you'll have no reason to be ashamed.


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

 

[oatmeal]

Here is another:

When is the last time you sold all that you own and gave the proceeds to the poor?

When is the last time you ate Levitically unclean food? Or wore clothes of mixed fabrics?

When is the last time you built an ark?

I am not interested in pointing out individuals since they only know as much as they have been taught.

What I am interested in is learning and teaching God's words accurately



I did not reply to this person's post but since I can now, I would like to know if Jesus Christ sold all that he had?

Did any of his disciples sell all that they had?

There is no record of it.

Also worth considering is what Jesus meant by "all"?

If indeed any of his disciples sold all they had that would include fishing boats, homes, and the clothes they were wearing. If indeed "all" means all without exception.

I do not see where Jesus Christ nor his disciples sold all without exception including the clothes they were wearing.

Do you?

Therefore there must be another meaning of the word "all" other than all without exception

 

[glorydaz]

Here is one post from the previous thread

Your dishonesty astounds me, Oats.

The response you quote had to do with this direct question by you.

Ah, another excuse for not believing John 14:12

Did Jesus Christ say it or not?

And Musty was exactly right in his response. I'm sorry you can't seem to grasp this fact, but what you are doing is falsely accusing other posters, when you are the one at fault for not understanding what John was saying, and to whom John was saying it.

I imagine this thread will be shut down if you keep this nonsense up. :chew:

 

[oatmeal]

Please identify those that you think say that EVERYTHING that Jesus said in the gospels pertain to lost sheep of the house of Israel only.

That is clearly false, as SOME of what Jesus said has a universal application, but MUCH was specifically related to His people, Israel.


That is certainly a great example of His primary focus on His people.


Only in your confused mind.


Perhaps you are blissfully unaware that believing gentiles were always welcome to join with Israel and their God.


We have no problem at all, since it is simply your false understanding of just about everything that causes your immense confusion.

Well, after you read the posts I replied to, then you will have more facts instead of assumptions.

A serious student of any subject especially a subject as important as rightly dividing the word of truth, would want to learn all he could about a subject before reaching a conclusion.

Please identify those that you think say that EVERYTHING that Jesus said in the gospels pertain to lost sheep of the house of Israel only.

I have copied and pasted a few of them. If you want more you know where to look

Reading their posts that is exactly what they say. Now, I can only go by what they wrote, not what they meant for I do not read minds.

That is clearly false, as SOME of what Jesus said has a universal application, but MUCH was specifically related to His people, Israel.

Exactly, that is my point.

That is certainly a great example of His primary focus on His people.

Israel was plenty of geography to cover for one man in the time frame of his short ministry.

In that time frame, it would have been impossible to cover every continent and peoples

Only in your confused mind.

In your opinion. Seeing that I agreed with your statement of

That is clearly false, as SOME of what Jesus said has a universal application, but MUCH was specifically related to His people, Israel.

then we must conclude that I was confused to agree with you.

Perhaps you are blissfully unaware that believing gentiles were always welcome to join with Israel and their God.

Perhaps not

We have no problem at all, since it is simply your false understanding of just about everything that causes your immense confusion.

Since I agree with your clear statement

That is clearly false, as SOME of what Jesus said has a universal application, but MUCH was specifically related to His people, Israel.

it would seem that you are more capable of accurately stating your position than they are.

Why they would write what they have written you should take up with them, not with me

 

[glorydaz]

What I am interested in is learning and teaching God's words accurately

Cracked Oats. :chuckle:

I did not reply to this person's post but since I can now, I would like to know if Jesus Christ sold all that he had?

Did any of his disciples sell all that they had?

There is no record of it.

Also worth considering is what Jesus meant by "all"?

If indeed any of his disciples sold all they had that would include fishing boats, homes, and the clothes they were wearing. If indeed "all" means all without exception.

I do not see where Jesus Christ nor his disciples sold all without exception including the clothes they were wearing.

Do you?

Therefore there must be another meaning of the word "all" other than all without exception

See, proving once again that you are unlearned...not fit to be teaching anyone.

Was Jesus talking to you? Do you have any clue what He is saying here?

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.​

You are left to quibble and whine about the word "all" ....missing the entire point. :nono:

 

[Right Divider]

Did any of his disciples sell all that they had?

There is no record of it.

Also worth considering is what Jesus meant by "all"?

Do you think that they ignored the Lord's command?

Mat 19:27 KJV Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?​

​

Act 2:44-45 KJV And all that believed were together, and had all things common; (45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.​

​

Act 4:32 KJV And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.​

Why don't you and others like you pool all your things and have all things common?

You really should since "you really believe God's word'.

 

[oatmeal]

Your dishonesty astounds me, Oats.

The response you quote had to do with this direct question by you.



And Musty was exactly right in his response. I'm sorry you can't seem to grasp this fact, but what you are doing is falsely accusing other posters, when you are the one at fault for not understanding what John was saying, and to whom John was saying it.

I imagine this thread will be shut down if you keep this nonsense up. :chew:

Not at all.

It is clear that some do not want to read what is written and in his post he makes clear that he is not willing to believe what Jesus Christ said. If I overgeneralized his statement, that is my error, not dishonesty

I read what he wrote and if that is not what he meant, he should learn to write his intentions more clearly

John 14:12 is clear to whom it is referring to

It is talking to those who believe on Jesus Christ.

It is that plain and simple.

If you wish to make excuses that is your problem

Am I claiming that I am doing what John 14:12 says I can do perfectly?

No, I am not, but I do know that Jesus Christ is referring to me because I do believe on him.

Therefore, I choose to obligate myself to learn to do what he says I can do.

Acts 1:8 was fulfilled in Acts 2:1-4, we have that power he spoke of and are able to use it if we want to, but as with all of God's word we are commanded to do it how God says we are to do it.

Evidently, you are incapable of answering my questions, thus I find you of no use to me as far as how to rightly divide the truth on this subject.

If you cannot answer my simple questions why should I believe you when it comes to who Jesus Christ is and is not, or who God is and is not?

 

[oatmeal]

Cracked Oats. :chuckle:




See, proving once again that you are unlearned...not fit to be teaching anyone.

Was Jesus talking to you? Do you have any clue what He is saying here?

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.​

You are left to quibble and whine about the word "all" ....missing the entire point. :nono:

So instead of sidestepping why not answer my question?

Did Jesus Christ and his other disciples do what you apparently believe Jesus said?

You seem to believe that Jesus Christ told the young man to sell everything without exception.

Did Jesus say, "do as I say, but not as I do"??

did any of his disciples sell all? All without exception?

The question is not difficult, why do you make it so difficult?

Your pride stands in the way.

We all learn we all have to humble ourselves to learn, I don't know one tenth of what I could know, yet I keep learning and humbling myself to the truth so that I do learn more

This is not about quibbling, it is about learning clearly what Jesus Christ said and what he meant. That precision is important to me because I respect the words of Jesus Christ and God who told him what to say. If you are not interested in knowing precisely what Jesus the anointed one said and meant, that is your decision and loss

 

[glorydaz]

Not at all.

It is clear that some do not want to read what is written and in his post he makes clear that he is not willing to believe what Jesus Christ said. If I overgeneralized his statement, that is my error, not dishonesty

I read what he wrote and if that is not what he meant, he should learn to write his intentions more clearly

John 14:12 is clear to whom it is referring to

It is talking to those who believe on Jesus Christ.

It is that plain and simple.

If you wish to make excuses that is your problem

Am I claiming that I am doing what John 14:12 says I can do perfectly?

No, I am not, but I do know that Jesus Christ is referring to me because I do believe on him.

Therefore, I choose to obligate myself to learn to do what he says I can do.

Acts 1:8 was fulfilled in Acts 2:1-4, we have that power he spoke of and are able to use it if we want to, but as with all of God's word we are commanded to do it how God says we are to do it.

Evidently, you are incapable of answering my questions, thus I find you of no use to me as far as how to rightly divide the truth on this subject.

If you cannot answer my simple questions why should I believe you when it comes to who Jesus Christ is and is not, or who God is and is not?

I can answer, and I have answered. You just don't like my answer. He was not speaking to you in that verse, and you're a bit of a dreamer if you think he was.

 

[glorydaz]

So instead of sidestepping why not answer my question?

Did Jesus Christ and his other disciples do what you apparently believe Jesus said?

You seem to believe that Jesus Christ told the young man to sell everything without exception.

Did Jesus say, "do as I say, but not as I do"??

did any of his disciples sell all? All without exception?

The question is not difficult, why do you make it so difficult?

Your pride stands in the way.

We all learn we all have to humble ourselves to learn, I don't know one tenth of what I could know, yet I keep learning and humbling myself to the truth so that I do learn more

This is not about quibbling, it is about learning clearly what Jesus Christ said and what he meant. That precision is important to me because I respect the words of Jesus Christ and God who told him what to say. If you are not interested in knowing precisely what Jesus the anointed one said and meant, that is your decision and loss

Jesus was telling the young man he loved his possessions too much.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus was telling the young man he loved his possessions too much.

That's only part of the story....

 

[glorydaz]

That's only part of the story....

I know, but I'm losing my desire to post anything.

It's so pointless, and I can't even bring myself to care.

You, my friend, will always have my prayers and support.

 

[Right Divider]

I know, but I'm losing my desire to post anything.

It's so pointless, and I can't even bring myself to care.

You, my friend, will always have my prayers and support.

Thanks GD... I know how you feel.

 

[oatmeal]

Do you think that they ignored the Lord's command?

Mat 19:27 KJV Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?​

​

Act 2:44-45 KJV And all that believed were together, and had all things common; (45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.​

​

Act 4:32 KJV And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.​

Why don't you and others like you pool all your things and have all things common?

You really should since "you really believe God's word'.

So show me where Jesus Christ sold the clothes off of his back!

Show me where his disciples did not have any clothes to wear because they sold all they had!

Note that they sold their possessions and goods, If they parted them to all then the recipients would have to sell all their possessions and goods and part them back to those who had originally sold them and parted them???

Then you have an endless cycle of selling and parting to what end?

 

[oatmeal]

Cracked Oats. :chuckle:




See, proving once again that you are unlearned...not fit to be teaching anyone.

Was Jesus talking to you? Do you have any clue what He is saying here?

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.​

You are left to quibble and whine about the word "all" ....missing the entire point. :nono:

So based on your reference and explanation to Matthew 15:24 nothing that Jesus said has anything to do with us in any way?

So Jesus and the Father were one to Israel only?

For Christians the Father and the Son are not one?

For Christians someone else if there is anyone else is the way to the Father?

Your overgeneralization in support of musterion makes it clear that I did not overgeneralize at all.

Evidently John 3:16 does not apply to us either?

You might want to think about this more clearly.

That will take humility and patience on your part

 

[Right Divider]

So show me where Jesus Christ sold the clothes off of his back!

Show me where his disciples did not have any clothes to wear because they sold all they had!

Wow... you're really frantic now.

Sell all does not mean that they had to go naked.

But I noticed that you do not understand nor approach any of that scripture with any sensible explanation for it.

Note that they sold their possessions and goods, If they parted them to all then the recipients would have to sell all their possessions and goods and part them back to those who had originally sold them and parted them???

Then you have an endless cycle of selling and parting to what end?

There was a reason that Christ told them to "sell that you have". I don't think that you'll ever understand why.

So again.... why don't you and those that believe like you live communally with all things in common? You know, like THEY did in Jerusalem during Acts 2.