Is death just another life?

[JudgeRightly]

What a sorry, sad, hobbling, doctrine.

You keep saying this, but you never explain why you think it is so.

Why is it "a sorry, sad, hobbling, doctrine"?

Yes, it was.

Liar.

Thanks be to God, it has already happened for me.

Liar.

when the Spirit quickened that which had been crucified and buried with Jesus by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

There is no "water" in Romans 6:3-4.

(Rom 6:3-4)

...

OK, "quickened" from what?
Death.
If the Spirit makes it alive, it must have been dead.

But your physical body has never been dead, else you wouldn't be here talking to us, for "it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this, the judgement."

So clearly, "it" cannot be your physical body, thus your physical body cannot have been quickened, thus Paul clearly isn't saying that we physically die when he says "we are buried with Him through baptism into death," and you literally have to read "water" (as you did above) into the text in order to make it sound like he's talking about water baptism, even though he has stated clearly that we are baptised with the Holy Spirit, and does not mention water.

Thus, that means your body/vessel has NOT been destroyed, you have NOT been given a new, sinless body, that will only be given to believers after Christ returns, as per 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

That makes you a liar, liar, pants on fire, hanging from a telephone wire.

Question: How does your belief that you no longer sin, deal with 2 Corinthians 5:10, which states rather explicitly, that we (Christians) will all be judged according to what we've done, "whether good or bad"?

Or are you one who "boasts in appearance and not in heart"?

 

[Clete]

Anyone want to take odds on whether Hoping has redefined the word "sin" to fit his belief that he no longer commits it?

Anyone want to bet against the idea that Hoping's "sinlessness" is identical in nature to his "literal death" in Christ?

It's the equivalent to how my, now long dead of prostate cancer, father-in-law didn't see the need to go to the doctor to be treated for a cancer he had been "healed" of.

It's the sort of incidious lie that gives Christianity the same flavor as Scientology, Eastern Mysticism and Astrology.

 

[Hoping]

You keep saying this, but you never explain why you think it is so.
Why is it "a sorry, sad, hobbling, doctrine"?

That doctrine leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed.
That doctrine allows the continuation of what was born of Adam, instead of allowing that which is born of God to thrive.
By insisting "it" is symbolic, we remove the reality.

There is no "water" in Romans 6:3-4.

Your opinion.
Not mine.

But your physical body has never been dead, else you wouldn't be here talking to us, for "it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this, the judgement."

I have received the judgement for my sins, and as Rom 6:23 says, it was death.
The earlier verses of Rom 6 illustrate how it happened.
By baptism into Christ's death.
Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
I am one of those included in that "before" judgement.

So clearly, "it" cannot be your physical body, thus your physical body cannot have been quickened, thus Paul clearly isn't saying that we physically die when he says "we are buried with Him through baptism into death," and you literally have to read "water" (as you did above) into the text in order to make it sound like he's talking about water baptism, even though he has stated clearly that we are baptised with the Holy Spirit, and does not mention water.

As the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, with water, has been successful for me in the destruction of the old man, I must ask how successful your "waterless" baptism has been in the destruction of your old man?

Thus, that means your body/vessel has NOT been destroyed, you have NOT been given a new, sinless body, that will only be given to believers after Christ returns, as per 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Were you correct, and I was still a son of Adam, I would still be a sinner too.
I am not a sinner, thanks be to God.

That makes you a liar, liar, pants on fire, hanging from a telephone wire.

Do sinners follow Christ?
No.

Question: How does your belief that you no longer sin, deal with 2 Corinthians 5:10, which states rather explicitly, that we (Christians) will all be judged according to what we've done, "whether good or bad"?

The "all" are all the people of earth, including the believers.
Some will get the rewards of their evil lives, a second death, and other will be granted eternal bliss when their names are found in the book of life..

Or are you one who "boasts in appearance and not in heart"?

How does that connect to the rest of your paragraph?
"Or"?
Whatever...I have nothing to boast of.
God can do the boasting.
My praises will exalt His power and love...and His doctrine.

 

[Hoping]

Anyone want to take odds on whether Hoping has redefined the word "sin" to fit his belief that he no longer commits it?

Anyone want to bet against the idea that Hoping's "sinlessness" is identical in nature to his "literal death" in Christ?

It's the equivalent to how my, now long dead of prostate cancer, father-in-law didn't see the need to go to the doctor to be treated for a cancer he had been "healed" of.

It's the sort of insidious lie that gives Christianity the same flavor as Scientology, Eastern Mysticism and Astrology.

It is written..."All unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17)
I recommend righteousness.

 

[Right Divider]

That doctrine leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed.
That doctrine allows the continuation of what was born of Adam, instead of allowing that which is born of God to thrive.
By insisting "it" is symbolic, we remove the reality.

The language of the Bible constantly proves you wrong.

Rom 6:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Note that is says that we SHOULD NOT serve sin... not that we cannot serve sin. The metaphors are not exact in this regard (i.e., the old man crucified is NOT a complete and total death of the old man).

You think that Paul is a fool... because Paul constantly admonishes believers not to sin.

Your opinion.
Not mine.

JR's opinion is correct, yours is wrong.

I have received the judgement for my sins, and as Rom 6:23 says, it was death.
The earlier verses of Rom 6 illustrate how it happened.
By baptism into Christ's death.

That baptism (into Christ's death) does not include water. Here is the baptism that you need:

1Cor 12:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism BY the Spirit without water.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That doctrine leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed.

Because you say so?

That doctrine allows the continuation of what was born of Adam, instead of allowing that which is born of God to thrive.

Does it though?

By insisting "it" is symbolic, we remove the reality.

Except it doesn't.

Your opinion.
Not mine.

It's a fact. There is no "water" in that passage. If you think it is, please copy/paste the verse and use the highlight tool to highlight the water in the verse.

You cannot, because there is no water in that verse.

On the other hand, Paul is explicit, when a person is saved, they are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

The moment someone believes, they are baptized with the Holy Spirit. (See Acts 11)

I have received the judgement for my sins, and as Rom 6:23 says, it was death.

But it wasn't physical death, clearly, otherwise you wouldn't be here talking to me.

The earlier verses of Rom 6 illustrate how it happened.
By baptism into Christ's death.

And guess how that's done.

"WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT"

NOT

"with water."

Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)

He's talking about physical death, here. LITERALLY, ACTUALLY, dying, and going to heaven (or hell, for that matter).

He's not speaking metaphorically, figuratively, or otherwise.

I am one of those included in that "before" judgement.

And yet, you haven't been judged yet, as per 2 Corinthians 5:10.

As the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, with water, has been successful for me in the destruction of the old man,

LIAR!

I must ask how successful your "waterless" baptism has been in the destruction of your old man?

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit was perfectly successful in what it was meant to accomplish.

You are concerned with water. I am talking about the Holy Spirit.

Were you correct, and I was still a son of Adam,

You are still a son of Adam.

I would still be a sinner too.

Yet you still sin.

I am not a sinner, thanks be to God.

Yet you still sin.

Do sinners follow Christ?
No.

Who said that they do?

Again, I point out, Christians are not "sinners," yet they still sin.

They are IDENTIFIED with Christ, and Christ is not a sinner, in Christ there is no sin. We are identified with Him.

We are freed from the "handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us," because He has "nailed it to the cross." (Colossians 2:13-14)

That is what Paul means when he said "he who has died has been freed from sin," for "sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law, but under grace," and "the sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law!" (AKA the "handwriting of requirements that was against us"!)

The "all" are all the people of earth, including the believers.

Wrong. Paul says "for WE must all appear...", not just "for all must appear." He's including himself in that. Or do you think Paul is going to be judged among the wicked?

2 Corinthians 5:10 is talking about the Bema seat of Christ, where CHRISTIANS are judged. The judgement of the wicked is a separate event.

Some will get the rewards of their evil lives, a second death, and other will be granted eternal bliss when their names are found in the book of life..

Nope.

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with salvation. That's a gift given to us the MOMENT we are saved (ie, sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise!).

These are rewards for the things we do AS Christians, AFTER we are saved.

How does that connect to the rest of your paragraph?
"Or"?
Whatever...I have nothing to boast of.
God can do the boasting.
My praises will exalt His power and love...and His doctrine.

You're clearly not paying attention to the passages I'm quoting.

 

[Right Divider]

Positionally : sinless
Practically : not sinless

 

[Hoping]

The language of the Bible constantly proves you wrong.
Rom 6:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Note that is says that we SHOULD NOT serve sin... not that we cannot serve sin. The metaphors are not exact in this regard (i.e., the old man crucified is NOT a complete and total death of the old man).

Can a fig seed bear olives?
Neither can God's seed bear liars or thieves.
If the old man was destroyed, he cannot do sinful actions.
If the old man was not destroyed, we cannot be reborn.

You think that Paul is a fool... because Paul constantly admonishes believers not to sin.

And thank God for his exhortations.
And for his reminders, admonishments, and warnings.
That is what fellowship is all about.

JR's opinion is correct, yours is wrong.

Two wrong opinions make two wrong opinions.

That baptism (into Christ's death) does not include water. Here is the baptism that you need:
1Cor 12:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Baptism BY the Spirit without water.

The gift of the Holy Ghost follows repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), in all but Cornelius' case.

1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Here we have washing, sanctification, and justification, in the name of Jesus Christ.
PLUS the Spirit.
Your focus on the "PLUS" resulted in the omission of the first part of the verse, which is done in the name of the Lord, like Peter commanded in Acts 2:38.
I'ld call that tunnel vision.

 

[Hoping]

Because you say so?

Because there can't be two of me.
Or of you.
If we are new creatures and our old man is still in existence, we are two creatures.
That won't do.

Does it though?



Except it doesn't.



It's a fact. There is no "water" in that passage. If you think it is, please copy/paste the verse and use the highlight tool to highlight the water in the verse.

You cannot, because there is no water in that verse.

On the other hand, Paul is explicit, when a person is saved, they are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

The moment someone believes, they are baptized with the Holy Spirit. (See Acts 11)



But it wasn't physical death, clearly, otherwise you wouldn't be here talking to me.



And guess how that's done.

"WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT"

NOT

"with water."



He's talking about physical death, here. LITERALLY, ACTUALLY, dying, and going to heaven (or hell, for that matter).

He's not speaking metaphorically, figuratively, or otherwise.



And yet, you haven't been judged yet, as per 2 Corinthians 5:10.



LIAR!



Being baptized with the Holy Spirit was perfectly successful in what it was meant to accomplish.

You are concerned with water. I am talking about the Holy Spirit.



You are still a son of Adam.



Yet you still sin.



Yet you still sin.



Who said that they do?

Again, I point out, Christians are not "sinners," yet they still sin.

They are IDENTIFIED with Christ, and Christ is not a sinner, in Christ there is no sin. We are identified with Him.

We are freed from the "handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us," because He has "nailed it to the cross." (Colossians 2:13-14)

That is what Paul means when he said "he who has died has been freed from sin," for "sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law, but under grace," and "the sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law!" (AKA the "handwriting of requirements that was against us"!)



Wrong. Paul says "for WE must all appear...", not just "for all must appear." He's including himself in that. Or do you think Paul is going to be judged among the wicked?

2 Corinthians 5:10 is talking about the Bema seat of Christ, where CHRISTIANS are judged. The judgement of the wicked is a separate event.



Nope.

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with salvation. That's a gift given to us the MOMENT we are saved (ie, sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise!).

These are rewards for the things we do AS Christians, AFTER we are saved.



You're clearly not paying attention to the passages I'm quoting.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Because there can't be two of me.
Or of you.
If we are new creatures and our old man is still in existence, we are two creatures.
That won't do.

You didn't answer my question.

You asserted that our position "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed."

Again, I ask, "because you say so?"

What part of our doctrine does what you say it does? Your post (feeble as it was) was completely intended as misdirection, begging the question that it does what you claim it does. My challenge to you, which you ignored, apong with the rest of my post, was "why do you think that it does what you say it does," to which you still have not given any actual answer. The question you apparently answered, which no one here asked, was "why do you think the old man was destroyed"?

Try answering the question I asked, and NOT the question I didn't ask.

Why do you think that our position "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed"?

By the way, Paul seems to think that there is a war going on in our bodies over what has control, something that isn't possible if we no longer sin after we are saved (which would indicate a victory that isn't supposed to occur until we reach Heaven), a battle between our minds and sin...

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:7-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:7-25&version=NKJV

 

[Hoping]

You didn't answer my question.
You asserted that our position "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed."
Again, I ask, "because you say so?"

Because Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24, and 2 Cor 5:17 say so.
Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Only if these scriptures are wrong can there be two of you.
As the converted, the reborn of God's seed, are new creatures, the old creature must have been destroyed; or else there are two of you.

What part of our doctrine does what you say it does?

I'm not sure who "our" is, but I was answering "Derf's" post #611, which stated..."Because it, (our death with Christ), is symbolic. Christ died for us substitutionarily. We have died only "in Christ", not actually...not physically."
If we really didn't die, how can there be a new "us"?
What exactly did the Spirit of Rom 8:11, and Col 2:11-13, "quicken"?
A live body needs no "quickening".

 

[JudgeRightly]

Because Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24, and 2 Cor 5:17 say so.

You still aren't getting it.

I'm not talking about what scripture says.

I'm asking you why you think that OUR POSITION says "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed."

Are you unable to answer this question?

Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

We agree with these scriptures. So does our position. So why do you assert that our position "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed"?

Only if these scriptures are wrong can there be two of you.
As the converted, the reborn of God's seed, are new creatures, the old creature must have been destroyed; or else there are two of you.

Supra.

I'm not sure who "our" is,

Mine and RD's.

but I was answering "Derf's" post #611,

Good for you.

which stated..."Because it, (our death with Christ), is symbolic. Christ died for us substitutionarily. We have died only "in Christ", not actually...not physically."

Yes, I read that bit.

If we really didn't die, how can there be a new "us"?

No one has said that we didn't die.

The problem is that you assume "die" means physical death, and thus you think that you've died physically.

What exactly did the Spirit of Rom 8:11, and Col 2:11-13, "quicken"?
A live body needs no "quickening".

But a dead spirit does.

 

[Derf]

I'm not sure who "our" is, but I was answering "Derf's" post #611, which stated..."Because it, (our death with Christ), is symbolic. Christ died for us substitutionarily. We have died only "in Christ", not actually...not physically."
If we really didn't die, how can there be a new "us"?

Heb 2:15 tells us.

What exactly did the Spirit of Rom 8:11, and Col 2:11-13, "quicken"?
A live body needs no "quickening".

Romans 8:11 KJV — But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall (future tense) also quicken your mortal bodies (physical bodies subject to death, even though they aren't dead yet) by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Do you not agree that the quickening Paul is referring to here is the body that will die and need to be resurrected? A live body that will die (that is subject to death) will need quickening in the future (after it dies).

If not that, what quickening will you need in the future? If you say, as you've hinted before, that no part of you needs any kind of quickening in the future, then you are touting a gospel different from the one Paul preached. And a different gospel is no good news at all, according to Paul.

Colossians 2:11-13 KJV — In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:13 is comparing your quickening to Christ's, whom God hath already raised from the dead. Your quickening, as Rom 8 explains, is still to come, but we are assured of it because the same God who raised Jesus from the dead promises us we will also be raised from the dead. Since we are buried with Him in baptism (a picture of His death) and raised from the water (a picture of His resurrection), we can see that our death and our quickening are figurative for things that will happen in the future, but that we can act confidently as if they are already accomplished.

But a dead spirit does.

Rom 8:11 is in no wise talking about the quickening of a dead spirit, but of a future dead body. You can't read "spirit" for "mortal body" there.

 

[Hoping]

You still aren't getting it.
I'm not talking about what scripture says.
I'm asking you why you think that OUR POSITION says "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed."

I write it because scripture says it can't happen.

Are you unable to answer this question?
We agree with these scriptures. So does our position. So why do you assert that our position "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed"?

So you do believe the old man is destroyed before the new creature takes over?
After so many posts that surprises me.
I am glad, and thank God, if the scriptures I supplied had a hand in changing your mind.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I write it because scripture says it can't happen.

You accused us of believing something that we do not believe. That's called bearing false witness.

You should apologize.

So you do believe the old man is destroyed before the new creature takes over?

You've moved the goalposts.

No one here has stated that the old man is not destroyed.

What we HAVE stated, and repeatedly, and shown, repeatedly, is that Paul was not talking about physical death when he wrote about the old man being put to death.

After so many posts that surprises me.

That's because you're not paying attention.

Pay attention.

I am glad, and thank God, if the scriptures I supplied had a hand in changing your mind.

My position hasn't changed at all.

Now, answer the question:

Why do you think that OUR POSITION "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed" (your words)? Because that's what you accused us of, calling it, quote, "a sorry, sad, hobbling, doctrine."

Why did you do that, when we don't believe what you accused us of?

Would you please repent of your false accusation?

 

[Hoping]

Heb 2:15 tells us.

I see nothing in Heb 2:15 that pertains to the discussion.

Romans 8:11 KJV — But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall (future tense) also quicken your mortal bodies (physical bodies subject to death, even though they aren't dead yet) by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Apply your "foot notes" to Col 2:11-12.
As Paul starts that verse with "But if the Spirit..."...It is clearly the second part of one prior thought, an action that will take place if the prior point is accomplished.
Here is that point..."And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
The dead body is what will be quickened "if Christ be in you".
Besides, Eph 2:1 places one kind of quickening in the past..."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
That is the quickening that happens at our being raised from Christ's grave with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4), reborn of God's seed.

Do you not agree that the quickening Paul is referring to here is the body that will die and need to be resurrected? A live body that will die (that is subject to death) will need quickening in the future (after it dies).

No.
You are mistaking the "being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4), with the resurrection from the dead on the last day.

If not that, what quickening will you need in the future? If you say, as you've hinted before, that no part of you needs any kind of quickening in the future, then you are touting a gospel different from the one Paul preached. And a different gospel is no good news at all, according to Paul.

It is only your misinterpretation of Rom 8 that implies a future quickening.
I see no scriptures using the word "quicken" relative to being raised from the dead on the last day.

Colossians 2:11-13 KJV — In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Made alive, from the dead.
Past tense.

Col 2:13 is comparing your quickening to Christ's, whom God hath already raised from the dead. Your quickening, as Rom 8 explains, is still to come, but we are assured of it because the same God who raised Jesus from the dead promises us we will also be raised from the dead. Since we are buried with Him in baptism (a picture of His death) and raised from the water (a picture of His resurrection), we can see that our death and our quickening are figurative for things that will happen in the future, but that we can act confidently as if they are already accomplished.

If they haven't happened already, we are not reborn.

Rom 8:11 is in no wise talking about the quickening of a dead spirit, but of a future dead body. You can't read "spirit" for "mortal body" there.

Too bad we can't agree on this.

 

[Hoping]

You accused us of believing something that we do not believe. That's called bearing false witness.
You should apologize..

It is clear you agree with "Derf", who misintrpretatated some verses to show he is still awaiting rebirth.
I have nothing to be sorry for.

You've moved the goalposts.
No one here has stated that the old man is not destroyed.

Derf has, but you only came into the conversation in the middle.

What we HAVE stated, and repeatedly, and shown, repeatedly, is that Paul was not talking about physical death when he wrote about the old man being put to death.

And we continue to disagree.

That's because you're not paying attention.
Pay attention.

Our opinions differ.

My position hasn't changed at all.

You must be talking in riddles or something, as I thought you had changed your tune.

Now, answer the question:
Why do you think that OUR POSITION "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed" (your words)? Because that's what you accused us of, calling it, quote, "a sorry, sad, hobbling, doctrine."

As your sentence above shows, you don't believe Paul is talking about the human body when he wrote of the old man being killed.
That is an error that leads to continued walking in the flesh, and sin.

Why did you do that, when we don't believe what you accused us of?
Would you please repent of your false accusation?

Perhaps you should revisit your stance on what Paul is talking about relevant to the "old man" in Rom 6:6, Eph 4:22, and Col 3:9.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It is clear you agree with "Derf", who misintrpretatated some verses to show he is still awaiting rebirth.

Don't try to shift the discussion to about someone else. We're talking about you here.

You claimed to have already been reborn physically. I showed you in post #621 at the top of this page that you cannot have been, because Scripture states, explicitly, that we will receive our new bodies at a future date.

You disgree, with scripture.

I have nothing to be sorry for.

Denying reality isn't healthy, Hoping.

Derf has, but you only came into the conversation in the middle.

I'll let Derf speak for himself.

And we continue to disagree.

It's not me you're disagreeing with. It's scripture.

That makes you wrong.

Our opinions differ.

This isn't a matter of opinion. You're wrong. You should repent.

You must be talking in riddles or something, as I thought you had changed your tune.

Like I said, PAY ATTENTION, and you won't be confused.

God isn't the author of confusion.

As your sentence above shows, you don't believe Paul is talking about the human body when he wrote of the old man being killed.

Because he wasn't. It's YOU who reads into the text that he was talking about the human body, which is what has resulted in your confusion, where Paul has explicitly stated that we will receive our new bodies at a later date.

YOU are the one in error here. Not us.

That is an error that leads to continued walking in the flesh, and sin.

Rather, YOUR error has led you to wrongly believe that you are no longer capable of sinning.

Perhaps you should revisit your stance on what Paul is talking about relevant to the "old man" in Rom 6:6, Eph 4:22, and Col 3:9.

Perhaps you should answer my question, which you have so far utterly refused to answer, because to answer it would reveal your own error.

Why do you think that OUR POSITION "leaves the "old man" in existence, when it could have been destroyed" (your words)?

 

[Derf]

I see nothing in Heb 2:15 that pertains to the discussion.

You should. It explains why we are no longer in bondage to sin.

Apply your "foot notes" to Col 2:11-12.
As Paul starts that verse with "But if the Spirit..."...It is clearly the second part of one prior thought, an action that will take place if the prior point is accomplished.
Here is that point..."And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;

Which body is obviously NOT dead...so what does Paul mean here?

but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
The dead body is what will be quickened "if Christ be in you".

Yes, indeed. The not-yet-dead body, which cannot be quickened, except it die (1 Corinthians 15:36 KJV — Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die)

Besides, Eph 2:1 places one kind of quickening in the past..."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

You bolded a part of the verse that doesn't exist.

That is the quickening that happens at our being raised from Christ's grave with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4), reborn of God's seed.

We are quickened in His quickening. We participate in anticipation of the fulness of that quickening <in Christ>, but the fullness of it hasn't yet come, when we also will be quickened like Christ was in his resurrection.

No.
You are mistaking the "being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4), with the resurrection from the dead on the last day.

It's possible, but I don't think it's a mistake.

It is only your misinterpretation of Rom 8 that implies a future quickening.

No, it's there. Go back and read 1 Cor 15:36 again and compare it to
Romans 8:23 KJV — And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
You don't wait for something that has already occurred.

I see no scriptures using the word "quicken" relative to being raised from the dead on the last day.

That's practically the only way it's used. Here's an example:
1 Peter 4:5 KJV — Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
And another:

John 5:21 KJV — For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Made alive, from the dead.
Past tense.

Romans 4:17 KJV — ...even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

If they haven't happened already, we are not reborn.

Too bad we can't agree on this.

It sounds like we already do. I agree with your contingent use of reborn. But we can also do as God does, and rely so perfectly in His promise of what is to come that we say it has already occurred. That's the definition of faith, right?

Hebrews 11:1 KJV — Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Hoping]

You should. It explains why we are no longer in bondage to sin.

I didn't know we were talking about something new.

Which body is obviously NOT dead...so what does Paul mean here?

The body that is dead.

Yes, indeed. The not-yet-dead body, which cannot be quickened, except it die (1 Corinthians 15:36 KJV — Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die)

That isn't the resurrection Eph 2:1 is talking about.
You are talking about the final resurrection of the world, some to eternal glory and others to damnation.
I am talking about being raised with Christ from His grave, just as we were crucified and buried with Christ.

You bolded a part of the verse that doesn't exist.

It is only bolded because it was the word I used to find the verse in biblegatway.com.
As it was there, it must exist.

We are quickened in His quickening. We participate in anticipation of the fulness of that quickening <in Christ>, but the fullness of it hasn't yet come, when we also will be quickened like Christ was in his resurrection.

That made no sense.
You don't seem to realize there are two "quickenings" in the bible.
One at our being raised with Christ from our crucifixion with Him,

It's possible, but I don't think it's a mistake.

That made no sense.
Why say it is possible but not a mistake?

No, it's there. Go back and read 1 Cor 15:36 again and compare it to
Romans 8:23 KJV — And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
You don't wait for something that has already occurred.

Second "quickening".
It will happen at the end of the world.
The first one, however, happened when we are killed, and then "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".

That's practically the only way it's used. Here's an example:
1 Peter 4:5 KJV — Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
And another:

The word "quick" there means "alive".

John 5:21 KJV — For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

As that is true, why can't He raise from the dead those who have been "immersed" in to Christ's death?

Romans 4:17 KJV — ...even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

As that is true, why can't He raise from the dead those who have been "immersed" in to Christ's death?

It sounds like we already do.

We agree there will be a resurrection of the dead, at the end of the world.
But we disagree on our being raised with Christ from His death in which we participate by water baptism.
Why?
Because you don't believe we are really killed with Christ.
That leads to two of you after rebirth: the old you and the new you.
It allows the false doctrine of "sin in the body" to flourish.
It allows the false doctrine of still being in an Adamic body, so still susceptible to sin.

I agree with your contingent use of reborn. But we can also do as God does, and rely so perfectly in His promise of what is to come that we say it has already occurred. That's the definition of faith, right?

Partial faith is worthless.
How can I have faith the "airplane" will get off the ground if I don't have faith in the pilots or the wings?
How can I have faith I can live without sin if I don't have faith that I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life?
The "newness of life" is the crux of this discussion.
Mine started already, but you seem to be waiting for the end of the world.