ECT Is compatibilism beyond the bounds of human understanding?

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Danoh

New member
Sonnet said:
Jesus told the Jews that the Kingdom of God would be taken from them (for a time - Romans 11:25) in the parable of the tenants:

Matthew 21:33-46
“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvellous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
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You read He told the Jews...

It reads He told their leadership they would be replaced.

And also reads they understood he was talking about them.

Who was this other nation (singular) the leadership of Israel would be turned over to?

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Danoh said:
You read He told the Jews...

It reads He told their leadership they would be replaced.

And also reads they understood he was talking about them.

Who was this other nation (singular) the leadership of Israel would be turned over to?

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
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Indeed, the Jewish leadership and Jews in general - for this has been the course of history. And, yes, the baton has been passed to the (true) Christian Church.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Danoh said:
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
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Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
 
D

Danoh

New member
Sonnet said:
Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
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That is a prophecy yet fulfilled. It has he who once laid low the nations from that spiritual wickedness in the Heavenlies mentioned in Eph. 6 and Revelation 12 - it has him cast down to the Earth at some point after his having once laid low the nations.

Ezekiel and Daniel often being a companion in their "mystery of God" that the Book of Revelation will later lay out in greater detail the finishing up of.
 
D

Danoh

New member
Sonnet said:
Indeed, the Jewish leadership and Jews in general - for this has been the course of history. And, yes, the baton has been passed to the (true) Christian Church.
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So much for "the twelve tribes of Israel."

Quit reading your ideas into the passages.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Danoh said:
That is a prophecy yet fulfilled. It has he who once laid low the nations from that spiritual wickedness in the Heavenlies mentioned in Eph. 6 and Revelation 12 - it has him cast down to the Earth at some point after his having once laid low the nations.

Ezekiel and Daniel often being a companion in their "mystery of God" that the Book of Revelation will later lay out in greater detail the finishing up of.
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Okay, interesting - but just wondering how this relates to the OP?
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
Danoh said:
Lucifer's free will fall was before time - there goes the assertion of your your OP - out the window, so to speak.
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The OP acknowledges both responsibility (through choices) and God's sovereignty - so I am not following you.
 
Bociferous

Bociferous

New member
Sonnet said:
Interesting - thanks.
So how do you negotiate Romans 9? Whilst I affirm God's sovereignty (and man's responsibility), I flinch at the Calvinist's interpretation of that chapter. I see Paul telling the Jews (even though he writes to Gentiles) that it is God's choice regarding the promise through whom salvation and mercy would come - and not their (the Israelites) ability to achieve righteousness through works - through the law. I don't believe Paul is suggesting that any particular individual is beyond saving - Esau for example ('hate' being an Hebrew idiom for 'love less'); rather, Paul is detailing those through whom Christ would come. And it was God's right, and choice, to do so.
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Because I'm a universalist, the notion of God enduring vessels of wrath to the benefit of those of faith doesn't carry the same sting as the traditional understanding of salvation because wrath or hell is metaphorically and ultimately purification. In the universalist view (mine, anyway) Godly fire or hellfire is the same process for purification to faith in time as it is that used to purify unbelievers, probably in the last moments of physical life. [To the observer in time the last rattling exhale of breath that takes place as one passes from physical life to the hereafter takes a second or two. From the point of reference of the one dying, a small eternity in the flames of Godly fire may transpire in the same time period. This sidesteps the metaphysical difficulty of a change of state taking place in the soul from the immutable side of things...] The difference is in how it's applied, either progressively and fragmentally in time effecting faith or in the 'all at once' lake of fire for those who lack the imputed righteousness of faith.

Even universalistic salvation-through-wrath can't find a place for Calvinist double predestination, but unconditional election in time--electing some to faith in time while allowing others to continue in sin--doesn't demean God's grace from this perspective for the reason noted above.

I see Jacob and Esau (as many do) as a Bible symbol for the dual nature in humanity, which seems to be approximately where you're going with it.
 
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