ECT Is compatibilism beyond the bounds of human understanding?
- Thread starter Sonnet
- Start date
I had to google compatibilism
-and
-the answer is no
-we have always known that God is in control
-and
-we will be held responsible for what we do
-what is the problem with that?
all you have to understand is free will
-we have free will
-and
-we will be held responsible for our choices
Sonnet
New member
But if you assert man's freewill then you reduce or even thwart God's sovereignty. And visa versa. We have all seen this on these forums involving Calvinists and Arminians.
I don't see how
Sonnet
New member
What does this scripture mean to you?
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
we have all been chosen and predestined for salvation
-but
-the plan requires our conformity to His will
-and
-we are free to reject His will
Sonnet
New member
Well, surely, there's the rub - we end up making contradictory statements don't we? If we are free to reject His will then God isn't sovereign. You said he was 'in control' earlier.
I'm not singling you out for criticism - just highlighting the issue.
that is not a true statement
Sonnet
New member
Okay - so we are free to reject God's will and God remains in control?
I'm not trying to goad you - I'm just looking to see if anyone can explain how two seemingly contradictory concepts can be explained.
Of course it does.
Bociferous
New member
I'm a compatibilist in part because it seems God designed the universe in ways that physical reality often mirrors spiritual reality. For example, the material realm is subject to constant change and decay but all change only operates under the predominance of absolute physical laws. Thus God seems to show us in nature how His sovereignty operates in eternality.
One reason I reject Open Theology is that OT wants to drag God from His sovereignty and place Him entirely in a temporal nature. [Calvinism, by contrast, tends to want to force God's immutable sovereignty on much of mutable temporality.] Compatibilism shows the middle road: God allows free reign in time while His sovereignty in the eternal realm remains inviolate.
Seems to me God subjects Himself to the laws of mutability in time (God changes His mind in temporal matters) while maintaining His sovereignty in eternality (God's sovereign decrees are absolute and unchanging).
One analogy I use is to consider that all temporal action takes place on a plane that's tipped 45 degrees with God at the bottom of the incline. Humans and animals are free to run to and fro and make decisions as they wish but all inevitably and eventually end up with God at the bottom of the incline. Don't know if this helps, but it's how I see the compatibility issue. It may be beyond our ability to fully understand in this life, but we can see by analogy how it can work.
Sonnet
New member
Interesting - thanks.
So how do you negotiate Romans 9? Whilst I affirm God's sovereignty (and man's responsibility), I flinch at the Calvinist's interpretation of that chapter. I see Paul telling the Jews (even though he writes to Gentiles) that it is God's choice regarding the promise through whom salvation and mercy would come - and not their (the Israelites) ability to achieve righteousness through works - through the law. I don't believe Paul is suggesting that any particular individual is beyond saving - Esau for example ('hate' being an Hebrew idiom for 'love less'); rather, Paul is detailing those through whom Christ would come. And it was God's right, and choice, to do so.
Sonnet
New member
Jesus told the Jews that the Kingdom of God would be taken from them (for a time - Romans 11:25) in the parable of the tenants:
Matthew 21:33-46
“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvellous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
Matthew 21:33-46
“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvellous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
Sonnet
New member
If Satan fell to the earth then you have your answer, I believe.